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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    You don't seem to get it, they can't copy the apple app store and do it differently. Being an exclusive gatekeeper of apps is where the trouble begins. Then Sprint can come in and say "no, we don't want that" Palm gets backed into being an overlord aka Apple. It's unavoidable.

    You don't need to list unrelated criticisms. I agree on some of them. Does nothing for your argument though.
    Apple, RIM, and Google have found a way to have an App Store where you can download apps directly from. So you are saying Palm couldnt figure out a way to do the same?
  2. #62  
    It's hard to say where you are downloading from. The info isn't clear. It mentioned purchasing. Maybe we should come back to this after we know more.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    You don't seem to get it, they can't copy the apple app store and do it differently. Being an exclusive gatekeeper of apps is where the trouble begins. Then Sprint can come in and say "no, we don't want that" Palm gets backed into being an overlord aka Apple. It's unavoidable.
    But Palm and Sprint can be evil overlords and it's no problem, in fact it's good for company image. The difference between palm and apple is side-loading. With the iPhone, the app store is the only way to get apps on the phone, so if it's not allowed in the app store, customers can't have it. With Palm, any app in the app store simply means it sanctioned by Palm and you get to use their method of easily installing it. But if it's not allowed, no biggie, just go to the dev's website. Making all apps go through the dev's website is a cop out.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by asforme View Post
    But Palm and Sprint can be evil overlords and it's no problem, in fact it's good for company image. The difference between palm and apple is side-loading. With the iPhone, the app store is the only way to get apps on the phone, so if it's not allowed in the app store, customers can't have it. With Palm, any app in the app store simply means it sanctioned by Palm and you get to use their method of easily installing it. But if it's not allowed, no biggie, just go to the dev's website. Making all apps go through the dev's website is a cop out.
    I agree with this, an additional option to a centralized store is a great idea. But, it should be in addition to the central store.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Why couldn't Palm copy the Apple App store but relax some of the restrictions? Its amazing what people here are willing to defend for Palm. You truly are a great Palm customer. Lets make a list.

    1. No VVM. This is good because voice mail stinks anyway.
    2. Limited storage - this is good because somebody will create a music streaming app
    3. Camera not so great - buy a real camera
    4. No buying music over 3G - this is great because I dont want Joe Blow slowing down my network when he buys music
    5. Syngery brings in all Google and Facebook contacts - who cares, thats what we have universal search for
    6. No real app store - great news, we all know the Apple store is a complete failure so lets just make it a portal
    1. This does suck but there can be third party apps. It's lame, everyone agrees, some people personally don't care for VVM anyway. It's not a unanimous agreement.
    2. 8gbs is not that limited. People act like it's 256mb or something. You're not going to be able to carry your whole music collection with you on even the iPhone 3G, accept that you need a dedicated mp3 player if you want your whole collection with you all the time and move on. This is the most annoying complaint. In what world is 8gbs not enough for a cellphone.
    3. The camera is just as good as other cellphones. This is a cellphone. It is fine.
    4. This is lame.
    5. This is true though. Do you care in Gmail that you have 300 contacts? No, you type a few letters of the name you want to email. What about when looking for a friend's page on Facebook? You type a few letters of their name in the top right corner. It's the same thing. You don't have to scroll so who cares. This is exactly what Universal Search is for, the Pre is all about mimicking the desktop experience. This is a lot better than scrolling if you ask me and a small tradeoff to have pictures and info imported automatically.
    6. You haven't seen it yet. There could be a Paypal type account that all these websites must take. The websites could be made to look just like the app store so that you'd never notice. We don't know.

    Some of the smallest things are irritating to people about the Pre. No phone is perfect, and the Pre looks pretty innovative. If you don't like it, fine, but to say that syncing contacts sucks, 8gs sucks, an app store we haven't seen yet sucks, the camera sucks...please. What planet are you on.

    If someone told me all of the Pre's apps were HTML and javascript, I would expect a choppy, poor experience. And then we saw Pandora and Google Maps and it's very fluid. The App store can be just as fluid. Wait before you complain.

    It could also suck and you end up being correct, but we haven't seen it yet so how could anyone already make up their mind.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan likes the pre View Post
    1. This does suck but there can be third party apps. It's lame, everyone agrees, some people personally don't care for VVM anyway. It's not a unanimous agreement.
    2. 8gbs is not that limited. People act like it's 256mb or something. You're not going to be able to carry your whole music collection with you on even the iPhone 3G, accept that you need a dedicated mp3 player if you want your whole collection with you all the time and move on. This is the most annoying complaint. In what world is 8gbs not enough for a cellphone.
    3. The camera is just as good as other cellphones. This is a cellphone. It is fine.
    4. This is lame.
    5. This is true though. Do you care in Gmail that you have 300 contacts? No, you type the name you want to email. It's the same thing. You don't have to scroll so who cares.
    6. You haven't seen it yet. There could be a Paypal type account that all these websites must take. The websites could be made to look just like the app store so that you'd never notice. We don't know.

    Some of the smallest things are irritating to people about the Pre. No phone is perfect, and the Pre looks pretty innovative. If you don't like it, fine, but to say that syncing contacts sucks, 8gs sucks, an app store we haven't seen yet sucks, the camera sucks...please. What planet are you on.

    If someone told me all of the Pre's apps were HTML and javascript, I would expect a choppy, poor experience. And then we saw Pandora and Google Maps and it's very fluid. The App store can be just as fluid. Wait before you complain.
    I dont want to go that far off topic, but........

    1. 3rd party apps for vvm are never as good as an integrated solution.
    2. I have 14.3 gigs of media that I store on my iPhone (that was released about 1 year ago). I want to carry the exact same amount on my new Pre.
    3. Many modern phones are shipping with 5 megapixel cameras.
    4. Dont care. Dont want 100s of extra contacts on my device that I will never use.
    5. We shall see.
  7. #67  
    5MP camera doesn't equal better than a 3MP camera. Thought we went over this?

    I agree with you on contacts. I don't need extra even if universal search would weed through them. And plus the Pre would be doing extra work having them in there possibly affecting how many cards you can have open. (an assumption)

    Finally, i will say Palm needs to make it seamless as possible no matter what they have going on with apps. People are lazy. I'll wait for more info before worrying about it.
  8.    #68  
    I don't think the whole "wait and see" attitude really adds anything to the discussion. We all understand that things could change, and we're basing our opinion out of a users manual that could be in error. If something changes, so will our opinion. This thread is based on the way things appear to be.

    That's what these message boards are for at this point. If we take the attitude we should "wait and see" and not talk about anything until we have the facts, there would be no posts.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    5MP camera doesn't equal better than a 3MP camera. Thought we went over this?

    I agree with you on contacts. I don't need extra even if universal search would weed through them. And plus the Pre would be doing extra work having them in there possibly affecting how many cards you can have open. (an assumption)

    Finally, i will say Palm needs to make it seamless as possible no matter what they have going on with apps. People are lazy. I'll wait for more info before worrying about it.
    Those sample pictures that were posted don't look that great though.

    I agree about the apps, I am one of those lazy people.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    I dont want to go that far off topic, but........

    1. 3rd party apps for vvm are never as good as an integrated solution.
    2. I have 14.3 gigs of media that I store on my iPhone (that was released about 1 year ago). I want to carry the exact same amount on my new Pre.
    3. Many modern phones are shipping with 5 megapixel cameras.
    4. Dont care. Dont want 100s of extra contacts on my device that I will never use.
    5. We shall see.
    I'm just going to say this

    4.It makes sense. You like that this is how it works on Gmail and Facebook, but don't want it to work the same way on the Pre because that's not how it's worked before on phones and you don't like that idea. Well, it's the best integration. Spend 0 times managing contacts, spend 0 time scrolling.

    We're not going to agree. I think little things bother you and you're scared to change, and you think people like me just defend Palm to defend Palm.

    There are some things about the Pre that are stupid, like no Visual Voicemail (fingers crossed). I can't agree with synergy or camera complaints.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    You don't seem to get it, they can't copy the apple app store and do it differently. Being an exclusive gatekeeper of apps is where the trouble begins. Then Sprint can come in and say "no, we don't want that" Palm gets backed into being an overlord aka Apple. It's unavoidable.

    You don't need to list unrelated criticisms. I agree on some of them. Does nothing for your argument though.
    I understand your point, but I think you are wrong.

    Take a look at any modern linux distribution -- Ubuntu, for example. Itīs package manager is miles ahead of both OSX and Windows as for as application management goes. There might even be third party program to do it for both OSX or Windows, but none to my knowledge, though I heard Windows 7 might have something like it. Anyway, in a typical Ubuntu install, the program manager -- based off the apt program -- allows you to add or remove programs from one central program. You can search through it by keyword or phrase, or you can browse via categories. Further, if you want to add third party software, all you have to do is add a repository. And there are 1000īs of 3rd party repositories. If you choose to install a program, the program will automatically download it via the web and install it for you -- no need to visit a web site or anything of that nature. If you choose to uninstall, same thing.

    As somebody who owns a windows mobile phone, I can attest to how extremely crappy searching all over the web for applications is compared to downloading from the App store on my ipod Touch or Cydia. And then installing the stupid application on the winMO device. Sometimes you can find CAB installers -- and sometimes the stupid winMO applications actually require you to install it from the desktop with you Treo or whatever device hooked into the USB. And, sometimes, only desktop installers are what is available. Very frustrating.

    Very.

    In a typical linux distro, there is no gatekeeper of information or what applications one can and cannot install. If the main Ubuntu or Debian repositories donīt offer something, one can always add third-party repositories, and there are many popular ones with 1000īs of programs. Further, one doesnīt HAVE to use the package manager to download an application. In fact, one can just go to the website, and compile the source themselves, or get an alternate package -- maybe a more recently updated or modified version of the program -- and just install that package. There is no gatekeeper. There shouldnt have to be a gatekeeper here -- as far as app approval goes, either.

    I agree, that having a gatekeeper for something like this sucks, but it can be done with out a gatekeeper or Apple-like draconian control. Most modern distributions of linux these days do it. WebOS is based off Linux.

    Another example. For all of us who have had or used a jailbroken Iphone or Ipod Touch -- we all know that this kind of application management -- without draconian control and the option to add third party repositories and make available any application oneīs heartīs desire -- exists in the form of Cydia. Cydia is an application market and manager that is basically the iPhone version of the Apt program, or package management for those familiar with Ubuntu or some Unix or Linux flavor. True, it does take some knowledge to jailbreak the phone, but if the Cydia team can create an application like this, so can somebody for WebOS.

    Think about it. WebOS is Linux. At the heart of most modern linux distributions is great application and package management.

    Given that this phone will probably be locked down, should some third party decide to try to implement something in the nature of the App store, Apt, or Cydia -- that might pose a problem. Further, I wouldnīt know the first thing about implementing it. But Iīm sure some enterprising user might.

    This is a big mistake on Palmīs part. I agree -- Palm nor Sprint might not have the infrastructure in place to do something like it -- but if they have any sense, they will get cracking on it -- pronto.

    I am sorry -- and I know this is just my opinion -- but entering in logins for multiple sites and going all over the place on the web to download applications just plain sucks, espescially after using Android Market, the App Store, Cydia, most modern Linux distributions. Doing it on a Desktop is not so bad if your using Xp or Vista or OSX and one gets used to it, but going all over the web, looking for that one application on a hand held device just plain sucks, especially after using current Application stores and package managers.

    I just want to enter my information once, and be done with it. Touch the screen, confirm to pay, download. I want categories. Even recommendations or similar categories.

    I think, should the phone be hacked, there could be some alternatives, given WebOSīs linux orgins, but that still doesnīt answer the problem of those who want to sell their applications.

    Now if Palm had some kind of work around -- say, we create our palm profile -- and the search feature on the market was incredible -- maybe, it might be good.

    But as far as I can tell, this is just a mistake. Maybe Palm, being low on resources and manpower, couldnīt muster enough to get it up at launch. That is a good possibility. Maybe they just cant handle it at all. But they should implement it in the future, as soon as they can. Otherwise, there are missing a big opportunity, not to mention making the user experience worse, where it could be better.

    Centralized application management was around before Appleīs App store. Apple found out a way to make big bucks off of it. Itīs been on Linux for a long time, without a gatekeeper. Now, it remains to be seen how Sprint factored into all of this.
    Last edited by ughlogins; 05/28/2009 at 09:11 AM.
  12. urkel's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Why couldn't Palm copy the Apple App store but relax some of the restrictions? Its amazing what people here are willing to defend for Palm. You truly are a great Palm customer. Lets make a list.

    1. No VVM. This is good because voice mail stinks anyway.
    2. Limited storage - this is good because somebody will create a music streaming app
    3. Camera not so great - buy a real camera
    4. No buying music over 3G - this is great because I dont want Joe Blow slowing down my network when he buys music
    5. Syngery brings in all Google and Facebook contacts - who cares, thats what we have universal search for
    6. No real app store - great news, we all know the Apple store is a complete failure so lets just make it a portal
    I agree with you and as a "selfish" consumer then this "the flaw isn't in the product, it's in the user" attitude is sickening. I'm a Mac user and I can see that is why Apple fans are so hated. If you don't buy into ever decision made by the big corporate teddy bear then it's a bunch of excuses for why a limitation is somehow a good thing or you get told "don't buy it jerk, go away". And you can't forget the absolutely gross, "They are a business so they have to protect their profit margins" line coming out of the mouths of non-stockholders.

    These are consumer products and we are paying consumers. So if something doesn't fit our expectations then we are supposed to say something. It is the only way to get the next gen product to address an overlooked issue.

    As for the topic. I'm curious what profitable iPhone devs feel about this. My bet is that even with 30% going to Apple then the "set it and forget it" model is infinitely more convenient than managing their own means of distribution.
  13. #73  
    I don't buy the argument that palm doesn't have the resources to do it either. How can the Cydia team do it but Plam Inc. can't? This is a major step backwards.
  14. #74  
    There is way too much assumption and conjecture in this thread.

    This is exactly why Sprint/Palm doesn't release their manuals before the phone comes out, because this type of negative "WTF? You mean it works like this and this? That must mean that and that! That sucks! Palm Sucks! Sprint sucks!"

    Just relax people. Save your crying for after you've browsed the app store and used it or at least heard from someone that has.
  15. Rhody's Avatar
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    #75  
    Why can't Palm have links to developer Web sites and still have centralized purchasing and billing?

    Think Windows Live Passport.

    Palm could require Pre developers to use a specific API on their Web sites that allows centralized purchasing and billing with a universal ID, password, and stored account information.

    I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Palm might have done it right. In fact, I believe offloading the hosting burden to the developers is a smart idea.
  16.    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    There is way too much assumption and conjecture in this thread.

    This is exactly why Sprint/Palm doesn't release their manuals before the phone comes out, because this type of negative "WTF? You mean it works like this and this? That must mean that and that! That sucks! Palm Sucks! Sprint sucks!"

    Just relax people. Save your crying for after you've browsed the app store and used it or at least heard from someone that has.
    It's really funny, when someone says something praising the Pre, I've yet to notice anyone say "Just Relax, it may end up totally sucking when it comes out". Positive speculation good. Speculating on criticism, NOT ALLOWED.
  17. #77  
    I'm good for negative criticism, just not "this thing sucks! Look at how the app store works!"

    I'd like to look, but I can't because no one has seen it. I don't think it's fair to declare the app store great or a failure yet.
  18.    #78  
    My point is everything positive we know is as much "conjecture and assumption" as this or any negative is. We won't know anything FOR SURE until launch. Everything is subject to change.

    We can take that to mean we shouldn't talk about anything until we have proof, or just that we can talk, but things are subject to change.

    I firmly believe in the later.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    This is exactly why Sprint/Palm doesn't release their manuals before the phone comes out, because this type of negative "WTF? You mean it works like this and this? That must mean that and that! That sucks! Palm Sucks! Sprint sucks!"
    I'm not sure what your point is here, so let me ask this: are you saying it's better to withhold information about a phone (i.e. a user manual) because some of its features suck? If the user's manual is an honest publication and the features are solid/tight/sweet, then a "leaked" users manual simply adds to the positive buzz. In this case, it looks to me like Palm screwed up by

    1. writing a manual that highlights weaknesses/flaws in their product.
    2. prematurely writing a manual that might infer weaknesses which may be gone before the phone is released.
    3. allowing the manual to fall into the wrong hands.

    None of these 3 screw-ups point to the negative comments generated by the leaked manual(s) - but all 3 speak volumes about Palm as a corporation. Is Palm:

    1. really so naive in their writing skills that they inadvertently dis their own product?
    2. really cavalier enough to write "accurately," in a polished, final-document format, about an unfinished device?
    3. really that sloppy with their corporate security?

    There's no defending Palm on this fiasco.
  20. urkel's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    There is way too much assumption and conjecture in this thread.

    This is exactly why Sprint/Palm doesn't release their manuals before the phone comes out, because this type of negative "WTF? You mean it works like this and this? That must mean that and that! That sucks! Palm Sucks! Sprint sucks!"

    Just relax people. Save your crying for after you've browsed the app store and used it or at least heard from someone that has.
    I agree that there is too much assumption here. But why the heck would you blame the potential customers for that?!?! This is a product supported by two failing companies where you are required to change your plan and dedicate the next 2yrs to. So why shouldn't customers be eager to figure out what the heck they are getting into?

    Sprint/Palm actually have a product that CAN rescue both companies but the reason why this launch has been such a mess is because they simply aren't "Apple enough" to play this secrecy and anticipation game. Apples rabid fanbase allows for this sort of product teasing, but Sprint/Palm aren't in the same league when it comes to customer loyalty so the more you make potential customers guess the more they'll be impatient and get turned off.
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