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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by zechzz View Post
    the incorrect reading they got was because they switched there meter leads around it does make a difference in reading voltage in which way you connect them one red which is positive and the other black which is negative.
    Yeah I was thinking that too, but didn't want to get into the "telling people they were doing it wrong." I've been using multi-meters for YEARS on automobile electronics.
  2. #22  
    I don't know how common this knowledge is, but if you walk into a Sprint store and tell them your battery isn't holding a charge properly, they will hand you a battery. I've done this twice. The first time I was given a used battery that didn't work too well and the second time I got a new one.
  3. #23  
    the only other thing i can think of is either it wasnt switched or perhaps the settings on the meter werent turned down to the right setting. and also i noticed if your reading the middle and left and short them at the same time it will switch and the reading will drop to 1.45vdc maybe there is a way to switch it to 0vdc as i know switching fets using a huntrun tracker isnt always the easiest thing and dont always work the exact same way. also if the battery is low on the meter it can read some things correctly and not others as in diffirent voltage levels or resistance readings. and also blown fuses can do the same. bad leads or can also do such things. ive seen it all lol thats why i like to have 3 meters at my desk.
  4. #24  
    Well, I can't locate my old Fluke meter, I think I lent it out and never got it back. I'm looking to purchase one this weekend if I can (have a 4 day weekend so I have some extra time) and if so, will retest the Pre, Centro and Mugen batteries and post results.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    Yeah I was thinking that too, but didn't want to get into the "telling people they were doing it wrong." I've been using multi-meters for YEARS on automobile electronics.
    Why not... steve jobs does
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by zechzz View Post
    @ gitit20 can you look at the chip & tell me the numbers & letters on it? I'll look up a schematic I'm thinking it's a zener diode & not a standard.
    Its an 8 pin IC small its hard to read the numbers i used a solvent to melt the glue holding it together and that faded the numbers but it looks like it says ATmega4HVD i do know its more then just a diode there is 1 of them that i saw and a transistor plus the 8pin IC and what looked like a thermal fuse.. the battery sent data back to my charger and it identified its self as a Palm battery to the charger also reported Firmware version 1.0 the battery did not send back any data far as what kind of IC it was... But here is the data off the chip i found on line its one hell of a little chip hope this helps ya...

    ATmega4HVD-4MX Features

    * • High Performance, Low Power AVR® 8-bit Microcontroller • High Performance, Low Power AVR ® 8-bit Microcontroller
    • Advanced RISC Architecture • Advanced RISC Architecture
    – 124 Powerful Instructions - Most Single Clock Cycle Execution - 124 Powerful Instructions - Most Single Clock Cycle Execution
    – 32 x 8 General Purpose Working Registers - 32 x 8 General Purpose Working Registers
    – Fully Static Operation - Fully Static Operation
    – Up to 4 MIPS Throughput at 4 MHz - Up to 4 MIPS Throughput at 4 MHz
    • Nonvolatile Program and Data Memories • Nonvolatile Program and Data Memories
    – 4K/8K Bytes of In-System Self-Programmable Flash (ATmega4HVD/8HVD) - 4K/8K Bytes of In-System Self-Programmable Flash (ATmega4HVD/8HVD)
    – 256 Bytes EEPROM - 256 Bytes EEPROM
    – 512 Bytes Internal SRAM - 512 Bytes Internal SRAM
    – Write/Erase Cycles: 10,000 Flash/ 100,000 EEPROM - Write / Erase Cycles: 10,000 Flash / 100,000 EEPROM
    – Data Retention: 20 years at 85°C /100 years at 25°C(1) - Data Retention: 20 years at 85 ° C / 100 years at 25 ° C (1)
    – Programming Lock for Software Security - Programming Lock for Software Security
    • Battery Management Features • Battery Management Features
    – One Cell Batteries - One Cell Batteries
    – Short-circuit Protection (Discharge) - Short-circuit Protection (Discharge)
    – Over-current Protection (Charge and Discharge) - Over-current Protection (Charge and Discharge)
    – External Protection Input - External Protection Input
    – High Voltage Outputs to Drive N-Channel Charge/Discharge FETs - High Voltage Outputs to Drive N-Channel Charge / Discharge FETs
    – Operation with 1 FET or 2 FETs supported - Operation with 1 FET or 2 FETs supported
    Charge FET is optional Charge FET is optional
    – Battery authentication features (Available only under NDA) - Battery authentication features (Available only under NDA)
    • Peripheral Features • Peripheral Features
    – Two 8/16-bit Timer/Counters with Separate Prescaler and two output compare - Two 8/16-bit Timer / Counters with Separate Prescaler and two output compare
    units units
    – 10-bit ADC with One External Input - 10-bit ADC with One External Input
    – Two High-voltage open-drain I/O pins - Two High-voltage open-drain I / O pins
    – Programmable Watchdog Timer - Programmable Watchdog Timer
    • Special Microcontroller Features • Special Microcontroller Features
    – debugWIRE On-chip Debug System - DebugWIRE On-chip Debug System
    – In-System Programmable - In-System Programmable
    – Power-on Reset - Power-on Reset
    – On-chip Voltage Reference with built-in Temperature Sensor - On-chip Voltage Reference with built-in Temperature Sensor
    – On-chip Voltage Regulator - On-chip Voltage Regulator
    – External and Internal Interrupt Sources - External and Internal Interrupt Sources
    – Sleep Modes: - Sleep Modes:
    Idle, ADC Noise Reduction, Power-save, and Power-off Idle, ADC Noise Reduction, Power-save, and Power-off
    • Package • Package
    – 8-pad DRDFN/ MLF - 18-pad DRDFN / MLF
    • Operating Voltage (VFET): 2.1 - 6.0V • Operating Voltage (VFET): 2.1 - 6.0V
    • Operating Voltage (VCC ):2.0 - 2.4V • Operating Voltage (VCC): 2.0 - 2.4V
    • Maximum Withstand Voltage (VFET): 12V • Maximum Withstand Voltage (VFET): 12V
    • Maximum Withstand Voltage (High-voltage pins): 5V • Maximum Withstand Voltage (High-voltage pins): 5V
    • Temperature Range: -20°C to 85°C • Temperature Range: -20 ° C to 85 ° C
    • Speed Grade: 1 - 4 MHz • Speed Grade: 1 - 4 MHz
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by gitit20; 07/01/2010 at 07:29 PM.
  7. TimmyB's Avatar
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    #27  
    Having switched from a Centro to a Pixi, I would really like to join this discussion, but sadly, I don't know my amps from a hole in the ground.

    Seriously, though, this is cool if we can reuse our Centro batteries. I am looking forward for the definitive answer!
    tim
  8. #28  
    wow that is a heck of a chip I figured it had some memory features guess I was right about the voltage drops from the fets ( field effect transistors) , and diode combo. I wonder how many of the features of the ic they actually use. Well thanks for the info and looking it up also lol.
  9. #29  
    What fun, breaking out our Fluke's...my results compared to itsjustme results on a Fluke 867b, which has an accuracy of a measly ±0.025%.

    Centro/800w
    Left----Center----Right
    X-------------------X = 4.013V (virtually same)
    X---------X--------- = 1.25V (different, 3.62V)
    ---------- X---------X = 0.01V (virtually same)

    Pre
    Left----Center----Right
    X-------------------X = 0.00V (virtually same)
    X---------X--------- = 2.588V (different, 3.17V)
    ---------- X---------X = 3.55V (virtually same)
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by opacityzero; 07/01/2010 at 08:56 PM.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by opacityzero View Post
    Pre
    Left----Center----Right
    X-------------------X = 0.00V (virtually same)
    X---------X--------- = 2.588V (different, 3.17V)
    ---------- X---------X = 3.55V (virtually same)
    Do me a favor....

    Put your negative lead on the right contact (looking at it with "Palm" face up, contacts towards you) and then place the positive lead on the center contact for 1-2 seconds, then immediately move the positive lead to the left contact and see if your voltage jumps up to 3-4 vdc.

    When I first measured my Pre with the positive lead on left contact and negative lead on right contact, I also read 0vdc. After moving the positive lead to the center momentarily and then moving it back to the left contact, the voltage jumped up to 4.x vdc for about 5 seconds before dropping to zero.

    As others have stated, the meter appears to be causing some switching in the circuitry. My Centro battery does not work in the same way, no switching at all.

    Edit: Here is some info listed on my Pre battery:

    S/N: A193J17XD1A
    DC 090318 (I think this is the date code)
    Made in China, Cell Origin Japan, Type 157-10119-00
    Last edited by Trekker; 07/01/2010 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Added battery info
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by zechzz View Post
    wow that is a heck of a chip I figured it had some memory features guess I was right about the voltage drops from the fets ( field effect transistors) , and diode combo. I wonder how many of the features of the ic they actually use. Well thanks for the info and looking it up also lol.
    Ya i know right lol the battery has its own little computer built in hell i remember when what that battery chip has is what are desktops had lol well almost remember lol I was kinda surprised when i looked up that number at what i have found out


    For all of you wanting a definite answer ( Centro and Pre battery Are the same i took to of them apart look at my other posts i have testing the proves it...

    There are a few factors that can give you different voltage readings Pin 1 + pin 3 - are the only ones that need to be tested with a volt meter the 2nd (middle) pin is a data bus and depending on what type of meter you use you will get different readings label facing up contacts pointing at you...

    (1 +)(2 DCCV)(3 -)
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by gitit20; 07/01/2010 at 09:49 PM.
  12.    #32  
    This is what I was really hoping to see - a discussion with data instead of a generic "Palm doesn't recommend..." This is great.

    I would really love to get something specific from Palm, too, and with that in mind, I started a chat with a rep named Udale. He was very polite right up unto the time we were mysteriously disconnected. Amazingly, that happened to be about the time that I asked (again) about the *specific* differences regarding output between the two batteries as a friend of mine with a volt meter is getting very similar results from each battery (that'd be you, Trekker).

    I think that I'll try again tomorrow with Palm and a different rep. Maybe I'll get luckier next time.

    Anyway, after looking all of these posts over, husband broke out what the guys in the shop called an ECM load center, a tool designed to simulate a load on a battery as if it was actually being used in a device in regards to amperage draw. It's used to test the ECMs in vehicles to see exactly what's happening when a load is being applied (as in why does my transmission act funny when I turn on my left turn signal, etc. Ya'll probably already knew that.)

    We used the same two batteries that we used for the last test as my new Pre battery still isn't here yet.

    The Centro battery intro at load was 3.65V /1450 milliamp
    It immediately dropped to 1.65V and fluctuated from 900/1000 milliamp.

    The Pre battery intro at load was 3.28 V / 1410 milliamp. It immediately dropped to 2.95 / 1200 milliamp then *resumed* to 3.28 V / 1380 milliamp.

    He summed it up as the Pre battery recognizes the larger drain and compensates, but the Centro battery does not - simulating something like a brown-out condition or the problem you get when you hook up your space heater with a cheap extension cord. Yeah, it works, but something is eventually going to give in a big way.
    Last edited by itsjustme; 07/01/2010 at 10:04 PM. Reason: To ask: Can you really tell battery circuits apart just by looking at them? (Nope, not being a smart anything-really asking.
    I wish I still had my Pre Plus. I miss it.
  13. #33  
    "Yeah, it works, but something is eventually going to give in a big way. " My wife and I have been using Centro batteries for over a year and nothing has gave, let alone in a big way.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    "Yeah, it works, but something is eventually going to give in a big way. " My wife and I have been using Centro batteries for over a year and nothing has gave, let alone in a big way.
    nothing will ever fail because they are the same...
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by itsjustme View Post
    This is what I was really hoping to see - a discussion with data instead of a generic "Palm doesn't recommend..." This is great.

    I would really love to get something specific from Palm, too, and with that in mind, I started a chat with a rep named Udale. He was very polite right up unto the time we were mysteriously disconnected. Amazingly, that happened to be about the time that I asked (again) about the *specific* differences regarding output between the two batteries as a friend of mine with a volt meter is getting very similar results from each battery (that'd be you, Trekker).

    I think that I'll try again tomorrow with Palm and a different rep. Maybe I'll get luckier next time.

    Anyway, after looking all of these posts over, husband broke out what the guys in the shop called an ECM load center, a tool designed to simulate a load on a battery as if it was actually being used in a device in regards to amperage draw. It's used to test the ECMs in vehicles to see exactly what's happening when a load is being applied (as in why does my transmission act funny when I turn on my left turn signal, etc. Ya'll probably already knew that.)

    We used the same two batteries that we used for the last test as my new Pre battery still isn't here yet.

    The Centro battery intro at load was 3.65V /1450 milliamp
    It immediately dropped to 1.65V and fluctuated from 900/1000 milliamp.

    The Pre battery intro at load was 3.28 V / 1410 milliamp. It immediately dropped to 2.95 / 1200 milliamp then *resumed* to 3.28 V / 1380 milliamp.

    He summed it up as the Pre battery recognizes the larger drain and compensates, but the Centro battery does not - simulating something like a brown-out condition or the problem you get when you hook up your space heater with a cheap extension cord. Yeah, it works, but something is eventually going to give in a big way.
    "The Centro battery intro at load was 3.65V /1450 milliamp
    It immediately dropped to 1.65V and fluctuated from 900/1000 milliamp.

    The Pre battery intro at load was 3.28 V / 1410 milliamp. It
    immediately dropped to 2.95 / 1200 milliamp then *resumed* to 3.28 V /
    1380 milliamp."



    This sounds like a very heavy load for these batteries, they are only
    rated 1150mAH. Since talk time on most cellphones is 2-4 hours a
    better simulated current draw would be more like 200mA to 600mA. At
    200mA an 1150mAH battery would last about 5 hours and 45 minutes and
    just under 2 hours (115 minutes) at 600mA, providing the battery is in
    top condition. Naturally, every battery is going to be a little
    different, even batteries manufactured at the same time. Battery
    capacity is often rated using a 20 hour rate: the battery is tested at
    a current draw that would discharge the battery in 20 hours, this
    current is multiplied by 20. So a 1150mAH battery should last 20
    hours at 57.5mA.

    What may be happening is the controller is sensing an overload
    condition and turning off the battery, then turning back on, sensing
    the overload again and back off, over and over again very quickly.
    This would account for the low voltage reading and fluctuating current
    readings. The controller may not even turn the battery on unless it
    senses something on the data contact. This would account for the
    occasional lack of voltage on the contacts until the data connector is
    touched with a meter.
  16. djraw's Avatar
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    #36  
    Would someone just contact the company(ies) that manufacture the batteries for the Pre and Centro and just ask them? Wouldnt that put it to bed?
    Last edited by djraw; 07/02/2010 at 01:53 AM. Reason: spelling
    IT'S NOT A DAMN BLACKBERRY!....
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by djraw View Post
    Would someone just contact the company(ies) that manufacture the batteries for the Pre and Centro and just ask them? Wouldnt that put it to bed?
    I have and they said they were same all but for the sticker on the out side and of course the price is twice that of the centro battery the first person i talked to would not tell me the difference said he was not able to. I called again and the guy admitted they were the same just a diff label he had even stated he uses em in his phone... Then when i was talking to on-line chat about getting a new USB door he also said they were the same...
    Last edited by gitit20; 07/02/2010 at 02:30 AM.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by zechzz View Post
    mostly likely with it only being 4vdc it wouldn't harm anything if it were ac it might be more likely but just as if u plug in your batteries for your remote in the incorrect order there are no negative effects from such a small voltage level. the incorrect reading they got was because they switched there meter leads around it does make a difference in reading voltage in which way you connect them one red which is positive and the other black which is negative. And the debate on weather the meter was effecting the reading is rubbish any dmm should be able to pick up the small amount of 4vdc especially since there is no current draw perhaps one of the meters had low battery which can effect some readings on some meters or a blown fuse will definitely do it.
    If the + and - pins were switch it most surly would fry it its 1150mAH pack its not the voltage that would kill the regulator chip inside the pre but its the amperage... the only way it would not fry it would be if it had a reversed polarity protection set up i doubt it does and i am not willing to find out haha
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by gitit20 View Post
    "The Centro battery intro at load was 3.65V /1450 milliamp
    It immediately dropped to 1.65V and fluctuated from 900/1000 milliamp.

    The Pre battery intro at load was 3.28 V / 1410 milliamp. It
    immediately dropped to 2.95 / 1200 milliamp then *resumed* to 3.28 V /
    1380 milliamp."



    This sounds like a very heavy load for these batteries, they are only
    rated 1150mAH. Since talk time on most cellphones is 2-4 hours a
    better simulated current draw would be more like 200mA to 600mA. At
    200mA an 1150mAH battery would last about 5 hours and 45 minutes and
    just under 2 hours (115 minutes) at 600mA, providing the battery is in
    top condition. Naturally, every battery is going to be a little
    different, even batteries manufactured at the same time. Battery
    capacity is often rated using a 20 hour rate: the battery is tested at
    a current draw that would discharge the battery in 20 hours, this
    current is multiplied by 20. So a 1150mAH battery should last 20
    hours at 57.5mA.

    What may be happening is the controller is sensing an overload
    condition and turning off the battery, then turning back on, sensing
    the overload again and back off, over and over again very quickly.
    This would account for the low voltage reading and fluctuating current
    readings. The controller may not even turn the battery on unless it
    senses something on the data contact. This would account for the
    occasional lack of voltage on the contacts until the data connector is
    touched with a meter.
    If I remember correctly Palm's early comments on the batteries was about this exact thing. They said there were safety features on the Pre battery that weren't on the Centro battery. They claimed it could wear out your device faster. I am not going to pretend to understand how these numbers reflect that, but that is what they said and this does prove there is some minor difference in the batteries. But since its been a year and I don't think anyone can link an issue to a Centro battery, I would imagine its a ok.
  20. #40  
    most likely the mah wouldn't matter bc there would be no current draw if reversed because there has to be a input protection of some kind the most basic being a diode which will only let the current flow one way therefore it wouldn't be completing the circuit and nothing happens. If I get bored enoug at work today I may try it out I have a small vdc power supply in which I can adjust the amps aswell. Sprint will replace it all I have to say is it stopped working this is my second pre bc my first blew the speaker a month ago.
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