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Why HP should not release webOS devices... (until later)
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Old 09/18/2012, 05:59 PM   #1 (permalink)
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webOS is currently not ready for prime time.

The webOS ecosystem was questionable a year ago when the TouchPad and Pre3 were released. Now webOS is unquestionably behind the times. Over a year goes by with no software updates, no new apps, a decrease of ecosystem support, and greatly improved competition does not look good for webOS. I think it is safe to say that webOS, at best, has only one last chance left at a mainstream consumer future and releasing a device now will only guarantee its failure.

HP has to be smart enough to realize that webOS currently cannot compete with the competition. Assuming HP is aware, and they are continuing to support webOS going forward than there are milestones that they are looking at internally that must be met before webOS devices can be released. Here are my thoughts on what those milestones may be.

-Open webOS has a successful version 1.0 release
-Community makes improvements to webOS software
-Secure partnerships with outside companies regarding:
--Navigation
--Music
--TV
-Create ways to create an income
--Establishing great cloud/backup/synergy tools available for manufacturers for a cost
--Search provider partnerships
--Commission for on device content purchases
-Solving the app riddle
--Gaining developer support again is all but impossible
--OpenMobile
--HP's own Android App Compatibility Software (i.e. Blackberry)
--Creating their own web based app store promising "write once deploy everywhere" while leveraging enyo

Until these milestones are met we should not expect a manufacture to take a risk with webOS.
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Old 09/19/2012, 07:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm not sure anyone understood it.

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Old 09/20/2012, 04:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by i2y4n View Post
-Open webOS has a successful version 1.0 release
-Community makes improvements to webOS software
-Secure partnerships with outside companies regarding:
--Navigation
--Music
--TV
-Create ways to create an income
--Establishing great cloud/backup/synergy tools available for manufacturers for a cost
--Search provider partnerships
--Commission for on device content purchases
-Solving the app riddle
--Gaining developer support again is all but impossible
--OpenMobile
--HP's own Android App Compatibility Software (i.e. Blackberry)
--Creating their own web based app store promising "write once deploy everywhere" while leveraging enyo

Until these milestones are met we should not expect a manufacture to take a risk with webOS.
Couldn't agree more, there's definitely a void within the infrastructure which needs filling before webOS can be taken seriously. Still, there's time for this to happen (if it will happen)
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Old 09/21/2012, 04:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by i2y4n View Post
HP has to be smart enough to realize that webOS currently cannot compete with the competition. Assuming HP is aware, and they are continuing to support webOS going forward than there are milestones that they are looking at internally that must be met before webOS devices can be released. Here are my thoughts on what those milestones may be.

-Open webOS has a successful version 1.0 release
-Community makes improvements to webOS software
-Secure partnerships with outside companies regarding:
--Navigation
--Music
--TV
-Create ways to create an income
--Establishing great cloud/backup/synergy tools available for manufacturers for a cost
--Search provider partnerships
--Commission for on device content purchases
-Solving the app riddle
--Gaining developer support again is all but impossible
--OpenMobile
--HP's own Android App Compatibility Software (i.e. Blackberry)
--Creating their own web based app store promising "write once deploy everywhere" while leveraging enyo

Until these milestones are met we should not expect a manufacture to take a risk with webOS.
I think one of the funniest thing about your statement(even spilled a bit of coffee on my computer monitor), is about that HP has to be smart ?

HP showing that could be smart, doesn't go together at all. To the contrary, HP has showed its true colors demonstrating to the world that their company is the most stupidest in the world. So HP has to be smart, not going to happen overnight, at the moment WebOS for HP is like a little science project that are just trying to make sense of it and if it will make a profit for them. If HP was smart, they would have already be marching forward by releasing a new WebOS 4.0 with new features that rivals their competitors and make it compatible with older hardware as well.

Have they done that, nope... so HP is not smart at all ?

Anyways not to veer off the original topic of the OP, I think that its true about what you just had said about HP making vital improvements to WebOS in order make more competitive. The bit of services that WebOS provides out-of-the-box are plain weak at the moment. Specially the devices Palm profile: it has to be improved than what it actually offers, take a look at Apple's iOS on how people back-up their devices with iCloud. Everything what you have stored on your device syncs, music or the videos, photos and even game saves. HP has to focus on that too, and specially with the cloud storage investments they have been making its not a difficult task for them to port it to the WebOS operating system.

And in regards to TV, Music,video purchase...they could always partner with Amazon. And let's not forget improvements in the App Store Catalog in terms of purchasing apps and providing that all the apps becomes available worldwide.
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Old 09/21/2012, 06:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think one of the funniest thing about your statement(even spilled a bit of coffee on my computer monitor), is about that HP has to be smart ?

HP showing that could be smart, doesn't go together at all. To the contrary, HP has showed its true colors demonstrating to the world that their company is the most stupidest in the world. So HP has to be smart, not going to happen overnight, at the moment WebOS for HP is like a little science project that are just trying to make sense of it and if it will make a profit for them. If HP was smart, they would have already be marching forward by releasing a new WebOS 4.0 with new features that rivals their competitors and make it compatible with older hardware as well.

Have they done that, nope... so HP is not smart at all ?

Anyways not to veer off the original topic of the OP, I think that its true about what you just had said about HP making vital improvements to WebOS in order make more competitive. The bit of services that WebOS provides out-of-the-box are plain weak at the moment. Specially the devices Palm profile: it has to be improved than what it actually offers, take a look at Apple's iOS on how people back-up their devices with iCloud. Everything what you have stored on your device syncs, music or the videos, photos and even game saves. HP has to focus on that too, and specially with the cloud storage investments they have been making its not a difficult task for them to port it to the WebOS operating system.

And in regards to TV, Music,video purchase...they could always partner with Amazon. And let's not forget improvements in the App Store Catalog in terms of purchasing apps and providing that all the apps becomes available worldwide.
I said smart enough. I didn't and won't call them smart.

Yea, I really like partnering with Amazon and I think they should have done that better from the start. But I would love to see them going beyond the obvious partners. HP should also look at verizon fios, at&t u-verse, google fiber, direct tv, time warner cable, tom tom, spotify, pandora, etc.
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Old 09/26/2012, 04:51 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Still, you got another logical failure in your posting.

You say they should not put WebOS out because it is not ready. But to make it ready you need a lot of money. You need apps. You need people that are keen on buying a product with WebOS on it.

There is your problem:
You won't get money from an OS that is not out.
You won't get people to program for a platform that might never get out.
You won't get marketing going if a product is not available, so who would be keen on something that may never be available?

The opposite is the case with all the good, profitable and established systems!
Was iOS ready when they put out the first iPhone?
Was Android ready when they put out the first device?
Heck, not even Windows was ready when they launched it.

Software (and that includes operating systems) are like bananas. They ripe at the customers place...
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Old 09/26/2012, 10:23 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Oooops... sorry for the agressive words. I was close to sleep when I posted, and really was not good. I didn't come here again since than.

Leave me be more specific:

=> First, you are looking only for USA resources. Out of your country, "partners providers", "music", "TV" and "navigation" is not important to HP, have no strong. Look; for example, pay for apps in carrier bill.

=> Cloud services have to be free in begining. If have to pay; in this times, doesn't help.

=> Commission over content can to be not interesting to HP and can give low revenue to partners, in first moment.

=> OpenMobile is nothing until now (promisses, promisses, promisses) and others Android compatibility is only interesting IIIIIF... the AndroDevs can insert his apps in HP Catalog, working as a native webOS app. Any other way, works only to geeks.

=> Webstore is a great idea, but give no help to sell devices... is important only AFTER the customer buy his gadgets. Before have the device in hands, the people have no idea about so interesting is the system, if is good or not.

And more: this giant enterprises prepare his strategies one or more years before some goal. So, I believe that the HP have this ideas about launch some device or release the Open webOS to others launch since than begun to open the S.O. .

Sorry, again.


Best Regards... B)
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Old 09/26/2012, 12:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Still, you got another logical failure in your posting.

You say they should not put WebOS out because it is not ready. But to make it ready you need a lot of money. You need apps. You need people that are keen on buying a product with WebOS on it.

There is your problem:
You won't get money from an OS that is not out.
You won't get people to program for a platform that might never get out.
You won't get marketing going if a product is not available, so who would be keen on something that may never be available?

The opposite is the case with all the good, profitable and established systems!
Was iOS ready when they put out the first iPhone?
Was Android ready when they put out the first device?
Heck, not even Windows was ready when they launched it.

Software (and that includes operating systems) are like bananas. They ripe at the customers place...
I don't know if you just didn't quote me correctly or if you just pick and choose what you want to reply to... I said manufacturers shouldn't put out webOS smartphones. HP still has to release Open webOS 1.0, internals needs to put it on some devices, HP needs to keep developing on it, etc.

I didn't have a logic failure before and I don't now. Your comparing two different things to each other. When iOS and Android released there was not an already established mature smartphone market. Now there is.
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Old 09/26/2012, 12:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Oooops... sorry for the agressive words. I was close to sleep when I posted, and really was not good. I didn't come here again since than.

Leave me be more specific:

=> First, you are looking only for USA resources. Out of your country, "partners providers", "music", "TV" and "navigation" is not important to HP, have no strong. Look; for example, pay for apps in carrier bill.

=> Cloud services have to be free in begining. If have to pay; in this times, doesn't help.

=> Commission over content can to be not interesting to HP and can give low revenue to partners, in first moment.

=> OpenMobile is nothing until now (promisses, promisses, promisses) and others Android compatibility is only interesting IIIIIF... the AndroDevs can insert his apps in HP Catalog, working as a native webOS app. Any other way, works only to geeks.

=> Webstore is a great idea, but give no help to sell devices... is important only AFTER the customer buy his gadgets. Before have the device in hands, the people have no idea about so interesting is the system, if is good or not.

And more: this giant enterprises prepare his strategies one or more years before some goal. So, I believe that the HP have this ideas about launch some device or release the Open webOS to others launch since than begun to open the S.O. .

Sorry, again.


Best Regards... B)
Why are partner providers not important outside of the USA? Don't people still buy music and movies in Europe? Asia? Canada? etc.

Your probably right about cloud services having to be free in the beginning. Then again in the beginning there will be less demand, so it could probably be free until it reached a certain point.

Its extra, free revenue.

OpenMobile is nothing right now, but it is possible for HP to create their own implementation. Look at Blackberry. HP needs to figure out the app store problem instead of relying on some vague promises from an unknown company.

I think apps are very important when buying a phone. Many people want the same apps as their friends and won't buy a phone that doesn't have those apps.
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Old 09/26/2012, 12:56 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Why are partner providers not important outside of the USA? Don't people still buy music and movies in Europe? Asia? Canada? etc.
Is not so important to HP, because have to work with each provider in each country... need time, need work a lot but; in the (new) begining, have no time to make this. In one country, ok... but in many countries, is very hard to do in few time.

Only some few apps are really important... the most, the people buy and/or download and forget...

For example: Whatsapp is important today, ICQ support is not so important today. Facebook is important today, Google+ is important today, Orkut is not so important today...

The important is not there is all apps, but the really important apps, that are few. The rest of apps, gonna be some "bonus"...


Best Regards...
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Old 09/27/2012, 12:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't know if you just didn't quote me correctly or if you just pick and choose what you want to reply to... I said manufacturers shouldn't put out webOS smartphones.
...and I tell you, that a mobile OS without hardware is not "out", but is "on the shelve". It is not used and no one will develop apps for it. That is how it is.

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Originally Posted by i2y4n View Post
I didn't have a logic failure before and I don't now. Your comparing two different things to each other. When iOS and Android released there was not an already established mature smartphone market. Now there is.
And wrong again. Why do people always believe that there were no smartphones before Apple??? There were so many, from Nokia Communicator to the Handspring devices. Apple did just one thing right: they moved the market from business to consumer...

I am not sure IIRC, but wasn't WebOS ready even BEFORE Android? And look how the market is doing now! WebOS has been forgotten by the consumer. And you won't change that by NOT putting WebOS on hardware, which is, as I tried to show you, your logical failure as I see it (totally in my opinion ofc)
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Old 09/27/2012, 01:30 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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<<thread cleansed>>

Please keep an eye on the tone of your posts folks. Not everyone will agree with each other, but please be respectful Thanks!
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Old 09/27/2012, 02:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
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...and I tell you, that a mobile OS without hardware is not "out", but is "on the shelve". It is not used and no one will develop apps for it. That is how it is.
So based on that logic that means nobody uses or develops for Linux, right?

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Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
And wrong again. Why do people always believe that there were no smartphones before Apple??? There were so many, from Nokia Communicator to the Handspring devices. Apple did just one thing right: they moved the market from business to consumer...

I am not sure IIRC, but wasn't WebOS ready even BEFORE Android? And look how the market is doing now! WebOS has been forgotten by the consumer. And you won't change that by NOT putting WebOS on hardware, which is, as I tried to show you, your logical failure as I see it (totally in my opinion ofc)
Smartphones to Overtake Feature Phones in U.S. by 2011 | Nielsen Wire

Smartphone Adoption increased across the U.S. and Europe

With Smartphone Adoption on the Rise, Opportunity for Marketers is Calling | Nielsen Wire
"While smartphone ownership was once just a business tool, more consumers than ever are using smartphones in their everyday lives. In the past year alone, the total number of smartphone subscribers increased 72% quarter-over-quarter, growing from 15 million subscribers in Q2 2008 to 26 million in Q2 2009."

While you are correct in saying that there were smartphones before the iPhone you are not correct in stating that it was a mature market. Things change... you aren't going to also try to tell me that the internet, in its current state, is the same as it was in 1995, are you?

During its debut and subsequent years webOS arguably competed with other smartphone operating systems. However, after over a year of zero development there is a lot of catching up to do.

Believing that releasing a phone and operating system that stands zero chance of selling will spur developer and customer adoption is a fallacy.
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Old 09/27/2012, 05:23 AM   #14 (permalink)
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So based on that logic that means nobody uses or develops for Linux, right?
I hate to have to break this to you but: Linux is actually running on hardware out there. But hush, don't tell anybody

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Originally Posted by i2y4n View Post
Believing that releasing a phone and operating system that stands zero chance of selling will spur developer and customer adoption is a fallacy.
Believing that an OS that doen't run on any phone/pad and therefore doesn't sell any apps will attract developers and customers in droves is.
Believing that hiding an OS on the shelve instead of putting it on hardware to run and sell is (as you put it) a fallacy.

And yes, it was also a fallacy to get phones/pads with webOS out and sell them for the price of an iPhone. You can't do that if you aren't established yet. That was HPs first error of judgement when releasing Pre3 and Touchpad, following a chain of other harmful events and decisions that led to the demise of webOS.

But the single biggest blow to the OS was, that HP stopped building hardware for it. This still stands. This still hasn't changed, and if it's up to you, you wouldn't want to change that but rather still tinker around with the OS?
No sir, I can't subscribe to that.
And I am sure you won't produce revenue on any product which you keep in the garage for tinkering instead of selling it to customers...
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Old 09/28/2012, 06:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I hate to have to break this to you but: Linux is actually running on hardware out there. But hush, don't tell anybody
Yea, I know Linux is running on hardware Thats why I brought it up but again you can't seem to respond to the entirety of my post. Can you go to Walmart or Target and buy a computer running and sold by Linux? No because they don't make their own hardware, but did that stop a community from growing, using, supporting, and improving Linux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
Believing that an OS that doen't run on any phone/pad and therefore doesn't sell any apps will attract developers and customers in droves is.
Believing that hiding an OS on the shelve instead of putting it on hardware to run and sell is (as you put it) a fallacy.

And yes, it was also a fallacy to get phones/pads with webOS out and sell them for the price of an iPhone. You can't do that if you aren't established yet. That was HPs first error of judgement when releasing Pre3 and Touchpad, following a chain of other harmful events and decisions that led to the demise of webOS.

But the single biggest blow to the OS was, that HP stopped building hardware for it. This still stands. This still hasn't changed, and if it's up to you, you wouldn't want to change that but rather still tinker around with the OS?
No sir, I can't subscribe to that.
And I am sure you won't produce revenue on any product which you keep in the garage for tinkering instead of selling it to customers...
Thinking that selling a device that won't sell will improve an ecosystem is delusional. A webOS device released in the near term is missing too many features and will fail in the marketplace. And you think another webOS device failure will help increase webOS's ecosystem?!?
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Old 10/01/2012, 12:36 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Yea, I know Linux is running on hardware Thats why I brought it up but again you can't seem to respond to the entirety of my post. Can you go to Walmart or Target and buy a computer running and sold by Linux? No because they don't make their own hardware, but did that stop a community from growing, using, supporting, and improving Linux?



Thinking that selling a device that won't sell will improve an ecosystem is delusional. A webOS device released in the near term is missing too many features and will fail in the marketplace. And you think another webOS device failure will help increase webOS's ecosystem?!?
HP's trying to do with webOS, what Google did with Android. But you cannot compare webOS to linux, like an OS that available to public. I cannot buy a phone and install webOS on it myself. So, until webOS catches the attention of manufacturers like Sony, Samsung, HTC, Motorolla, etc. which will never be anytime soon, you may not see a phone for webOS, because I'm sure HP would not dare venture into that after the touchpad failure.
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Old 10/01/2012, 02:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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HP's trying to do with webOS, what Google did with Android. But you cannot compare webOS to linux, like an OS that available to public. I cannot buy a phone and install webOS on it myself. So, until webOS catches the attention of manufacturers like Sony, Samsung, HTC, Motorolla, etc. which will never be anytime soon, you may not see a phone for webOS, because I'm sure HP would not dare venture into that after the touchpad failure.
HP made many decisions regarding Open webOS that will allow it to relatively easily be ported to other hardware. In just a few short weeks you have already seen a handful of examples of webOS running on other hardware. It is only a matter of time before you can go buy a phone and install webOS.

I didn't compare webOS to Linux. I used Linux as an example of why I thought this statement was incorrect.
Originally Posted by Buddy1969
"...and I tell you, that a mobile OS without hardware is not "out", but is "on the shelve". It is not used and no one will develop apps for it. That is how it is."
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Old 10/03/2012, 10:37 AM   #18 (permalink)
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HP made many decisions regarding Open webOS that will allow it to relatively easily be ported to other hardware. In just a few short weeks you have already seen a handful of examples of webOS running on other hardware. It is only a matter of time before you can go buy a phone and install webOS
But, marketing webOS with a well known manufacturer (like sony, samsung, moto etc) will help in gaining attention from consumers and the devs. Also, in few short weeks you probably will see phones with low-end brand names with webOS, in which case it will not appeal to an average consumer who would choose high end brands.

Also, what buddy said is true for an actual OS. However, webOS is built on a Linux platform. So basically any device that has a Linux-kernel should be able to support webOS. But, you cannot perform load tests/performance tests on an emulator, you need an actual device or some form of prototype. Think of this similar to releasing a software without a beta version.

Last edited by mmutandis; 10/03/2012 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 10/03/2012, 11:28 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Apps are key here. Consumers want apps - while most of us only use a handful, the great majority want the availability of apps to do just about everything, as smartphones are quickly replacing computers for most of our daily tasks.

Given that HP has fallen so far behind the curve, it's going to be quite a task to garner even developer support for new WebOS apps... and without that, consumers will take a quick glance at it and move on to something else, no matter how big the entity behind the hardware is... or how cool WebOS is.

Afraid the baby, this time, truly has been thrown out with the bathwater.
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Old 10/04/2012, 01:45 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Maybe CIOs just need remote access to their work computers. Have a low powered thing you can do work on while you have no internet connection, and connect to corporate VPN the rest of the time.
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