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  1. fly888's Avatar
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       #1  
    I don't really understand some of the posts on this and was wondering if someone wanted to waste some time enlightening me.

    I always find myself so surprised to read diehard Treo users ranting and raving about how good a WM Treo will be.

    Now I admit that I am very biased because I have used PalmOS pretty much since the beginning, but I just don't understand the argument. The way I see it is the WM Treo has to happen for Palm to remain competitive, because of the existence of corporate networks that for one reason or another don't play well with PalmOS. But as a "superior alternative" that would be bought by individuals or small businesses? It just doesn't sit right.

    I read a post the other day on this board which stated that a WM Treo would be ideal because it would combine the best hardware with the best software, which IMHO is completely backwards. I came back to Palm FROM a WM smartphone because the OS was so unreliable. Nor can I understand the opinion that the Treo has superior hardware. WM smartphones are available in smaller sizes than the treo, some have hidden keyboards, some have landscape VGA screens, some have integrated wi-fi, many come sans-antenna, and almost all of them have higher clock speeds.

    I think that the beauty of the Treo is the software, full-stop (PalmOS as tweaked by PalmOne). The ease of 1 handed navigation, the stability, and the high level of integration with the phone.

    I guess I am just wondering what is so great about MW?
  2. #2  
    Its not ease of use, its potential. WM just has more head room. Its the difference between a boring Honda and an unreliable Ferrari. Which one would you rather drive?

    To put it differently, its not integration, its features. Lets look at the WM in the highest end phone, the HTC Universal. It supports:

    1) VGA screen (i.e. the OS supports it, Garnet does not)
    2) A real file system
    3) USB Host
    4) Native HID profiles in bluetooth
    5) Proper Multi-tasking and Protected Memory for ALL software
    6) Concurrent network connections (e.g. GPRS and WIFI at the same time)
    7) Easier development environments e.g google sidebar is written in the same .Net as new WM software.
    8) Better support for games (DirectX built-in)
    9) Better support by developers e.g. Acrobat Reader, Skype, Opera, Netfront, etc
    10) More standardization, e.g allowing WIFI cards to work easily in any WM PPC device, which makes for cheaper peripherals.
    11) etc etc

    If the OS did not support it the hardware features would not be possible. I wonder what features you would list for the POS. You may argue that POS Garnet has been perfectly adapted to the Treo, but WM has the momentum, and people can see how it improves over the years, vs POS apparently getting more unstable and worse over the years.

    If the Treo has WM it would remain the same size, have the same battery life, but would have:
    1) easy access to WIFI through a SD card
    2) access to Skype, Netfront, Acrobat
    3) a larger game library
    4) better multi-tasking

    but may have worse one-handed navigation, and would be extremely non-intuitive to a long-time POS user.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 09/02/2005 at 05:06 PM.
  3. #3  
    It's not better in and of itself. It has better competibility with the existing MS corporate software.

    Also it has better software support for specialized market since all industrial PDA are PPC based.

    It does nothing to me by the way.
  4. #4  
    HTC Universal is not a smartphone. It is almost a mini notebook with cellphone built in. I was quite surprised when I saw its dimensions.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever7
    It's not better in and of itself. It has better competibility with the existing MS corporate software.

    Also it has better software support for specialized market since all industrial PDA are PPC based.

    It does nothing to me by the way.
    Exactly what "Industrial PDAs" do you speak of? Most of the ones I know of w/ built in scanners and such are Palm OS.
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    Exactly what "Industrial PDAs" do you speak of? Most of the ones I know of w/ built in scanners and such are Palm OS.
    I am talking about the waterproof, weatherproof PDA for field technician to use.

    This one for example

    http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/pdas/...pda-031599.php

    There are a whole line of these kind of stuff out there appearencely. I saw a PDA magazine in Barnes and Noble and they have these rugged PPC in all kind of shapes and forms and you will never see them marketed to general public. The technicians in the cable company I work for use one, they are in size of a newton and has wireless data built in. They use them to update/complete work order and download new job orders. The guys told me it costs about 1000-2000, I don't remember exactly.
  7. sledgie's Avatar
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    #7  
    i'd like to comment that the treo wm5 700 will include that awesome 5 way which should make all users who hate current ppc's 5 way navigability stoked
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its not ease of use, its potential. WM just has more head room. Its the difference between a boring Honda and an unreliable Ferrari. Which one would you rather drive?

    To put it differently, its not integration, its features. Lets look at the WM in the highest end phone, the HTC Universal...
    This is what Surur has never gotten and probably never will. It is, in fact, NOT about features. Features alone don't sell. Don't believe me? Look at the sales of the hx4700.

    People actually buy (and don't return) a good user experience. My Treo 650 is the best PDA I've ever used and the best phone I've ever used. Why? Because of the integration and the user interface. It doesn't need VGA, it doesn't need WiFi, it doesn't need whatever the hip buzzword of the month happens to be because it does what it needs to do very, very well.

    Adding Windows Mobile to a Treo is like adding a rudder to a car.

    (BTW, I'd pick the boring Honda over the unreliable Ferrari any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I need my car to work, not look good while it's in the shop.)
  9. fly888's Avatar
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       #9  
    I guess I was hoping that some of the hardcore WM advocates on this board would have weighed in on this one, but in any event, I think that I should correct myself. The question I should have asked was "What would be the point of a WM Treo?" (I still think that I could put that question better btw)

    I understand that WM can support VGA but isn't that going to be irrelevant once WM is loaded onto a Treo with it's 320x320 screen? Also the Treo's support for wifi is not related to the OS (I heard rumors that the Treo's exclusion of wifi was deliberate in an attempt to appease American carriers who didn't want competition for their own data services, but it's just a rumor). On the topic of bluetooth, I couldn't get bluetooth to even function with my WM device until I downloaded 3 separate bluetooth stacks that were recommended, but not released for months after my purchase (2 x 3500's, and one 3900), but may have just been my poor luck. On the other hand, I also agree that multitasking is virtually nonexistent on the Treo and I would love to see that improved.

    The thing that I really don't understand is why a Treo? If WM is better than PalmOS then why not just purchase one of the many smartphones that already has the OS loaded? The VGA screens are there. The wifi ability is there. I look at the HTC examples that I think are fantastic examples of hardware. What could possibly be gained by combining the Treo & WM? (To be entirely honest, I have a sneaking suspicion that people think that loading WM onto a Treo will give them the Treo's stability, but I think I'll just keep that to myself.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
    Adding Windows Mobile to a Treo is like adding a rudder to a car.
    My opinion exactly.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever7
    I am talking about the waterproof, weatherproof PDA for field technician to use.

    This one for example

    http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/pdas/...pda-031599.php

    There are a whole line of these kind of stuff out there appearencely. I saw a PDA magazine in Barnes and Noble and they have these rugged PPC in all kind of shapes and forms and you will never see them marketed to general public. The technicians in the cable company I work for use one, they are in size of a newton and has wireless data built in. They use them to update/complete work order and download new job orders. The guys told me it costs about 1000-2000, I don't remember exactly.
    That means that that PPC has finally made it into a market that Palm has dominated for years. But, as I mentioned, Palm has dominated this market for years so I don't think this a strong argument for PPC.
    Last edited by Geckotek; 09/03/2005 at 03:17 PM.
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  11. #11  
    Good points, Jeff. And welcome to TC.
  12. #12  
    Of course, in the real world, features sell. Look around you. Its not even worth arguing.

    Surur
  13. #13  
    I still think, of all of the other PDA smartphones out there, that the Treo is still the best form factor. I think it's nearly perfect. I could do without the antenna but it hasn't been a problem. I'd rather have the Treo's smaller screen than a large screen with a hidden keyboards. I don't like hidden or pop out keyboards. 98% of the time that I turn on the treo I'm using the keyboard anyway.
    Having WM would make a Treo more of a palm sized computer, not just a PDA smartphone. I still think of Palm OS as a PDA os and WM as a wanabee full computer OS. I'm a long time Palm OS fan for it's simplicity (don't need 5 clicks to get a note pad open, etc.) but I think the current design of the OS has become the limitation of the potential as the powe of these devices advance. I want more from my handheld.
    I'm still undecided if I want WM for my next treo or Palm OS. I guess I'll have to test drive it first and see what apps are available for WM that I can't get on Palm OS.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  14. #14  
    First, I love my Treo, and I'm thrilled with all that it allows me to do. I bought mine in May, and I think it's the best smartphone on the market.

    But if a WinMo Treo were available several months ago, I would have chosen it over the 650. I even considered holding off my purchase since some rumors pointed to a summer release, but given there was no official word, I didn't want to wait indefinitely. Now that I've invested countless hours into customizing my Treo and testing dozens of apps, it's hard to imagine dropping it for a Windows model now, but I probably will switch eventually.

    To me, PalmOS feels like a very fancy electronic notepad, as opposed to a handheld computer.
    I want real multitasking. I want to be able to read my email or play a game while a webpage downloads.
    I want a more attractive UI, with better control over fonts and colors. I want built-in font smoothing. Aside from launchers, third-party apps and hacks that address UI generally make my Treo unstable.
    I want my RAM to be organized in folders, instead of one big pool of files that gets littered over time.
    I want all my apps to be capable of accessing files on my SD card. I want to be able to create a folder and save a file in it, from any app.
    I want to be able to play Flash files in the browser. I want to be able to open pdf files natively. I want a text editor with more features than were available 10 years ago - such as being able to format text or select a filename.
    I want an OS that attracts major software companies, one that people don't assume is on its last legs.

    Some people are complacent with their current user experience, but anyone who has used a PC in the past 5 years should understand what's missing.

    WinMo 2005 probably won't give me everything I want, but at the moment, it seems to be the only contender. And unlike others, I have no emotional bias against Microsoft or their products.

    As for the car metaphors, I think PalmOS is an '87 Mustang, and I'm eyeing an '06 Camry because it has such modern "luxuries" as power steering, automatic transmission, a/c, shoulder harnesses, and cup holders.
  15. #15  
    I totally agree with you Samkin. It may not be the answer to all of it, but it is heading in the right direction.
    I'll add that I know WM isn't without it's major faults, I'm not saying it's 'better' but it certainly is heading in the right direction and making progress.
    Kind of like the Netscape web browser that was far superior back in it's day. But Netscape went under and improvements to it stopped dead. Meanwhile MS continued to develop and improve IE until bypassed the Netscape Navigator and became the better (only choice) web browser for a long time. Thanks to FireFox the browser wars are back (Yeah baby!, just like old times.)

    Put it this way, if I could have WinXP on my Treo today, I would. WM is an attempt at being a wannabe Windows XP for handhelds and that's good enough for me right now.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  16. TazUk's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorh
    Put it this way, if I could have WinXP on my Treo today, I would.
    Really, that's the complete opposite of what I want I don't want lots of glitz and an OS which requires large amounts of memory and screen real estate. What I do want is something that gives me the information I need quickly and displays it in a way that is easily readable. The Treo 650 with PalmOS seem to fit that bill better than anything else currently out there.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Of course, in the real world, features sell. Look around you. Its not even worth arguing.

    Surur
    Then how do you explain iPod outselling all other MP3 players by such wide margins? I am sure that they didn't do it on features and prices.

    This is not the PC market any more. Design matters now.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by TazUk
    Really, that's the complete opposite of what I want I don't want lots of glitz and an OS which requires large amounts of memory and screen real estate. What I do want is something that gives me the information I need quickly and displays it in a way that is easily readable. The Treo 650 with PalmOS seem to fit that bill better than anything else currently out there.
    This is exactly what I was thinking as I read some of these responses re: "experience." If you want a nicer UI, there are plenty of apps to help you do that on a Palm device. That is what makes Palm OS so successful. It can be as simple as you need and use much fewer resources than WM OR, you can load it to the hilt and do anything you need with it as long as someone is willing to write an app to do it.

    I agree that Palm's "keep it simple" approach that has worked so well for years is what has become a hinderance to them moving into the "multi-media monster" world. This is what has triggered the development of Garnet, Cobalt, and now the talk of a Linux based OS. Making changes like this is bound to come with some growing pains, but I think Palm is doing about as well as they can and still has a good future ahead of them.

    And speaking of Netscape, it was my first browser and I was very sad when I had to finally give up on them (but now I'm back to Firefox!) But why did they go under? MS! I don't want to see the same happen to Palm because we don't have the balls to stick with them during this time of transition. Palm has served us well for years...and I for one will continue to use a Palm device as long as I can.
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    Then how do you explain iPod outselling all other MP3 players by such wide margins? I am sure that they didn't do it on features and prices.
    Reality distortion field? And who says design is not a feature? Thats what people like about the Treo. And lastly, even Apple is adding further features to remain competitive.

    Surur
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    And speaking of Netscape, it was my first browser and I was very sad when I had to finally give up on them (but now I'm back to Firefox!) But why did they go under? MS! I don't want to see the same happen to Palm because we don't have the balls to stick with them during this time of transition. Palm has served us well for years...and I for one will continue to use a Palm device as long as I can.
    Netscape went under because MS made IE free when it was Netscape's primary source of revenue as well as MS's uncompetetive pracitces forcing computer companies to install IE and weren't allowed to include Netscape.
    They litterally priced (free) and forced Netscape out of the market with their (at the time) inferior browser. I know I was working at Netscape when it happened (bit of a personal experience there, LOL)
    Remember the major anti-trust lawsuit over this that resulted in Gates stepping down as CEO (laugh).

    On the other hand MS started thier competing WinCE, what 6-7 years ago? and yet Palm OS remained the dominator because MS didn't "get it" with windows handhelds. Actually I think WinCE was too bloated and way ahead of it's time being too much for how simple the devices still were, so Palm OS remained the 'right' mix of power and simplicity for what was wanted and needed. No one wants 5 clicks to open a note pad or 3 to get a contact when that's all the devices did at the time.
    I remember checking out one of the first WinCE devices and I thought it simply sucked. It required more processor and memory just to be an overly complicated UI.

    However as some of you agree, the handheld market has changed. Now it's multimedia, GPS, phones, games, pictures, broadband wireless, and office documents including real multi-tasking which is now needed. Pretty much most of the things I use my laptop for. Now the devices and market have matured to what Win Mobile was always intended for. Yes, it still requires more processor power and memory, but now they actually do something with all of that hardware.
    It's not just about fancy UI. But when you're trying to multi task, cut and paste, attach files to email, and do all of these fancy things, the UI needs to be a little 'more' to make this all really work together. The OS also needs to be able to manage all of it.

    So at that, I think there's still a lot of room for both markets. Palm may surprise us with some ingenuity in the Palm OS arena. If they do then I think it could really continue to dominate for a long time coming.
    I'd have to see a WM Treo myself to know for sure, but if it's what I think it is you'll be able to get a lot more out of a Treo with WM 5.

    Again, I'm not saying it's better. Like comparing Windows to Mac, the debate could go on forever, but there is cause for some excitement for those who have been waiting.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
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