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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by kaptainchump View Post
    Based on Palm's track record, I don't necessarily trust Palm to provide continuing updates over the lifespan of the device-as soon as they make a new phone, the Pre will soon be forgotten. This has happened to me from the 650->700p->800w
    It's all about revenue recognition (an accounting practice). With previous devices, Palm realized the income in the same fiscal year as the release of the device. In doing so, it is seen on their books as a loss to spend money on bug fixes, OS updates, etc. in the future after the income has already been realized. They typically "recognize revenues from sales of mobile products under the terms of the customer agreement upon transfer of title to the customer, net of estimated returns, provided that the sales price is fixed or determinable..."

    Palm is changing their accounting practice for revenue recognition of the Pre which will financially enable them to continue to provide support and still look good in their shareholders' eyes.

    "We anticipate launching our Palm Pre with Palm webOS in the first half of calendar year 2009. We expect to periodically provide unspecified services and software free of charge to customers of Palm webOS products. Therefore, as required by generally accepted accounting principles, we will recognize Palm webOS product revenue on a subscription basis in accordance with SOP No. 97-2. Under the subscription accounting method, we will recognize revenues and related standard costs of revenues for our Palm webOS products on a straight-line basis over their currently estimated economic life. If the actual economic lives of our Palm webOS products are different than these estimates, we will revise the economic lives we are using to recognize revenues and related standard costs of revenues, which may result in a lack of comparability between products and/or periods. Certain administrative and other related period costs of revenues will be expensed as incurred. If we offer specified upgrade rights to our customers in connection with Palm webOS products for future delivery, we will defer applicable revenue until the future obligation is fulfilled, the right to the specified upgrade expires or VSOE is established."

    It's all in their latest quarterly filing (Form 10-Q) filed on 3 April 2009.
    Summary of PALM INC - Yahoo! Finance
  2. #22  
    According to the numerous Pre threads that device desperately needs more updates.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by wwejason View Post
    It's all about revenue recognition (an accounting practice). With previous devices, Palm realized the income in the same fiscal year as the release of the device. In doing so, it is seen on their books as a loss to spend money on bug fixes, OS updates, etc. in the future after the income has already been realized. They typically "recognize revenues from sales of mobile products under the terms of the customer agreement upon transfer of title to the customer, net of estimated returns, provided that the sales price is fixed or determinable..."
    I don't have to be an accountant to make what is obvious known: If you pump out devices that are buggy and fail to provide support for these products, you will most likely lose potential/current customers. Apple seems to realize this because they continue to support their original handset with updates to this date, while slowly introducing new features and handsets to customers looking to upgrade. I'm am in NO way a fanboy of any Apple product; I don't even own one. But I'm tired of Palm treating their loyal customers as a statistic. All that the above quote tells me is that when Palm sees that it is in their financial best interests to screw current customers, they will release a new handset and leave their current customers in the past . I know people will be clamoring for a new handset, but they should continue to support their products for at least a year after the product launch! Wouldn't it be financially responsible to secure current customers' satisfaction while releasing new handsets? The current customers will (potentially) be happy with their product while also desiring the latest and greatest.

    I know I haven't given Palm much of an opportunity with the Pre, but they have already lost my trust.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by kaptainchump View Post
    All that the above quote tells me is that when Palm sees that it is in their financial best interests to screw current customers, they will release a new handset and leave their current customers in the past .
    cough........800w...........cough
  5. #25  
    The whole model of "support" between manufactures and carriers is broken to begin with hindering most development.

    Palm can't directly support previous devices since they have to go through the carrier first i.e. they have to request OS updates, bug fixes, etc. and they have to pay for development and testing. Throw in the whole testing and development system plus the terrible ROM updating procedure that WinMo has and it is not surprising to see such few updates.

    Apple got around this with direct-to-device updates (well, iTunes) and they bypass AT&T--first time that has happened.

    Palm has done this with the Pre and the Pre already has had an update to 1.02 since its release. Since the Pre can be updated directly by Palm with no carrier interference, you'll see it happen much more frequently.

    When WM7 gets OTA firmware updates, you'll hopefully see that happen on that platform too.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  6. #26  
    This is the exact reason I might hang on to my pre. I still haven't decided yet.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    The whole model of "support" between manufactures and carriers is broken to begin with hindering most development.

    Palm can't directly support previous devices since they have to go through the carrier first i.e. they have to request OS updates, bug fixes, etc.
    It's not just the update process, it's the whole development process which ends up tied to carrier demands/restrictions. This is why Kyocera got out of the smartphone biz which was a real shame. And probably why Palm had to release the Pro without any carriers at first.

    Having different versions to satisfy restrictions of different carriers doesn't do any good for product development and the end users suffer.
    Bell Rotary --> Kyocera 6035 --> Kyocera 7135 --> Palm Treo 800w
  8. #28  
    All the more reason to stick with devices that can be fully customized by end users. Including being able to apply customized ROMs. Which is why I no longer buy day 1 and will always wait to see what has custom ROMs available.

    Development communities often provide good upgrades without any of the hassle, if initial device locks can be opened.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    All the more reason to stick with devices that can be fully customized by end users. Including being able to apply customized ROMs. Which is why I no longer buy day 1 and will always wait to see what has custom ROMs available.

    Development communities often provide good upgrades without any of the hassle, if initial device locks can be opened.
    Yea, That's why if HTC ever comes out with a device with a front (portrait) keyboard, everybody (Palm, Apple etc....) will be in trouble!
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by jabo View Post
    Yea, That's why if HTC ever comes out with a device with a front (portrait) keyboard, everybody (Palm, Apple etc....) will be in trouble!
    You'd think that but HTC has its faults too. Not everything they put their name on is gold.

    Their new Sprint Snap front qwerty has great "guts" (chipset, processor, radios, speaker, screen) but the keyboard is poor and the overall feel for the device is cheap.

    Quality feel between a the Treo Pro (manufactured by HTC), 800w amd Sprint Snap is night/day with the former two way ahead in keyboard design and feel.

    PocketNow also didn't care too much for the GSM version for similar reasons.

    http://www.wmexperts.com/sprint-htc-snap-hands

    http://pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=reviews&id=1140
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    All the more reason to stick with devices that can be fully customized by end users. Including being able to apply customized ROMs.
    Personally I feel that passing the buck onto customers to fix their devices (bugs, upgrades, etc.), while fun for the minority geek crowd, is a terrible near requirement for end users.

    McGuyver work-arounds have no place in long term strategies for the mobile industry and this need to have to make custom roms to get a decent working device is a knock against WM.
  12. #32  
    I agree - my Touch Pro is running the stock ROM. I spent lots of time with my Palm devices to make them rock solid. I spent bunches of less time with the WM devices to make them rock solid and with the Touch Pro, no time spent to make it rock solid - just runs. I zapped the Flo and got rid of the texting confirmation. I have bunches of 3rd party applications, but none for dependability, just convenience.
  13. #33  
    Just think how many consumers buy these things yet don't use forums to figure out how to make them work right or to optimize them. Maybe they don't know what they're missing out on but many of them probably just get frustrated with the product and return it.

    I think the 800w is a great device but only if it's tweaked by its user. Out of the box I could see where people would not like its "quirks".
    Bell Rotary --> Kyocera 6035 --> Kyocera 7135 --> Palm Treo 800w
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by NicksGarage View Post
    Just think how many consumers buy these things yet don't use forums to figure out how to make them work right or to optimize them. Maybe they don't know what they're missing out on but many of them probably just get frustrated with the product and return it.

    I think the 800w is a great device but only if it's tweaked by its user. Out of the box I could see where people would not like its "quirks".
    A good friend just bought a Sprint Touch Pro (despite my warnings and caveats i.e. "It's a great device but...requires some tweaking, battery life is not that great, etc.").

    It's his first WM device and he totally hates it. He can't figure why it doesn't have a screen lock, why the battery life stinks or why Touch Flo's weather won't update via Wifi or EV. He now has second thoughts about Touch Pro 2 (he bought this as a tester to familiarize himself with the OS/form factor in preparation for that device).

    I love WM but it has a long way to go till it's for the masses.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I agree - my Touch Pro is running the stock ROM. I spent lots of time with my Palm devices to make them rock solid. I spent bunches of less time with the WM devices to make them rock solid and with the Touch Pro, no time spent to make it rock solid - just runs. I zapped the Flo and got rid of the texting confirmation. I have bunches of 3rd party applications, but none for dependability, just convenience.
    Yea, out the box my Touch Pro was running way better than my 800ws out of the box. (And I have no problems with weather tab updates.) But the ability to customize a device even further than the stock setup provides benefits I once never knew.

    I've had plenty of devices with the stock setup and it never matches what a dev community can provide. The device maker is only going to ever take a device to a certain extent and then move on to their next product. They're in the business to keep you buying the next thing, so their improvements will always have a limit. The dev community provides ways to make a great device even better. If someone fails to leverage the benefits, good for them if they don't want to customize further, that just means they won't be keeping sites I frequent tied up for bandwidth .

    When it comes to having a device that runs solid out of the box, plenty of devices do (some find the 800w to be solid too), but for me when it comes to a device that can meet that middle of business and personal use, having something that can be highly customized is total benefit.

    The 800w helped me transition from Palm OS to WM while using a device with the same external feel, going from Treo 650 to Treo 800w. But it could not do all that I purchased it for, it had more bugs and issues than I cared to continue dealing with and Sprint was pretty tired of hearing about it from me. I'm glad Palm brought my 800w back from me, so I could move on to something that works better for me. And I've never seen a device disappear from Palm's lineup as fast as the 800w did. Whether that was by design or feedback, it's not the device I could keep running with and even the carrier and maker have moved on from it too. After August 2008, just about one month after the 800w was released, I didn't see Palm make not even a single accessory for the 800w. But they sure did get to rolling out those Treo Pro accssories that the 800w never saw from Palm. Never mind software updates, Palm didn't even provide much in the way of hardware add ons for the 800w.

    Anyway, with the Touch Pro, I'm enjoying every minute of owning it.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    A good friend just bought a Sprint Touch Pro (despite my warnings and caveats i.e. "It's a great device but...requires some tweaking, battery life is not that great, etc.").

    It's his first WM device and he totally hates it. He can't figure why it doesn't have a screen lock, why the battery life stinks or why Touch Flo's weather won't update via Wifi or EV. He now has second thoughts about Touch Pro 2 (he bought this as a tester to familiarize himself with the OS/form factor in preparation for that device).

    I love WM but it has a long way to go till it's for the masses.
    I will be honest like I always do and say as a friend looking for a WM devices I'd steer them in a direction toward a HTC Snap or Ace. Really a Curve would be my number 1 choice for someone getting into a PDA for the first time.

    I am sure your telling him how poor the device is out of the gate so its probably not helping his efforts.

    The battery issue again is always up to debate. My view has changed drastically from owning an 800. My view is topping it off any chance I get. I do that with all my devices. If I'm at work just watching my battery drain all day I would be stupid not to put it on a charger. Do it in the car as well. None of my devices probably never get under 70 percent. Now I realize this isn't for everyone but most of us have 10-15 minutes out of a day to do it.

    I ran the stock ROM on my Touch Pro for 5 months with no problems. If I ran into an issue the community is always there to help. Slide2Answer / Lock to care of the answering issues most people have. It was never really an issue for me I just happen to like the app.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    I will be honest like I always do and say as a friend looking for a WM devices I'd steer them in a direction toward a HTC Snap or Ace. Really a Curve would be my number 1 choice for someone getting into a PDA for the first time.
    Yeah, I actually told him the Treo Pro was better to begin with, but I think he was attracted by the larger VGA screen and Touch Flo eye candy.
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    I am sure your telling him how poor the device is out of the gate so its probably not helping his efforts.
    I didn't actually tell him it's poor device because I think it's a good one...just not for a beginner. Touch Pros have a specialized audience with specific needs that I didn't think he necessarily met. But he had it for a few days without me knowing and he gave me his opinion without my assistance.

    He's now probably going to get the Treo Pro and since he's coming from a Centro, that makes more sense.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by jabo View Post
    Yea, That's why if HTC ever comes out with a device with a front (portrait) keyboard, everybody (Palm, Apple etc....) will be in trouble!
    They did, its called the Palm Treo Pro. Palm contributed the name on the box and probably the box too.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by hlazar View Post
    Wait six months and the pre will have everything worth having.
    And if it doesn't you can always redefine what "everything worth having actually means"
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    And if it doesn't you can always redefine what "everything worth having actually means"
    I've had several Treo 800w replacements but this one replacement is by far the best one yet. I've had little to no problems with it. Even after registry edits, I've not had many problems. I've had freeze issues but that is Windows Mobile in general. I love the 800w. I even hacked the recommended USB sound card to work on my Treo in a more minimal package .
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