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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by zbop View Post
    In the meantime, it ain't scientific, but if you want to gauge the difference, simply scan the 800w forum for posts complaining about the battery life, and then do the same on the Treo Pro forum. That should tell you everything you need to know.
    Although the 800w's battery life was always enough for me and my issues with it were in other areas, you're right. The bottom line is the individual user experience. And overall there are not complaints about the unlocked GSM Treo Pro regarding battery life. And I think it will be similar for the Sprint Treo Pro.

    While I've advised people that they should carefully consider provided specs about a device, many don't. And bottom line is that Palm needs the sales and so the device has to satisfy customers, regardless of whether they read the spec on battery life or not.

    Obviously there's a sweet spot for the market in terms of battery life and Palm hit it with the Treo Pro. Because there are not loads of complaints. (I guess if I put it all on HTC I'd say HTC hit it.)
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Oh I agree and have said as much here at WME. It's just strange as Sprint usually says "GPS" for everything (aGPS and GPS). So when they specifically say only "aGPS" it's a little disconcerting.

    But certainly there can be errors on that sheet, no doubt.
    If it isn't truly standalone, it *might* be easier to hack the GPS on a Treo Pro than an 800w.

    When HTC implements drivers, they tend to define alot of settings (read tweakable) in the registry, more than Palm anyways.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by zbop View Post
    If it isn't truly standalone, it *might* be easier to hack the GPS on a Treo Pro than an 800w.

    When HTC implements drivers, they tend to define alot of settings (read tweakable) in the registry, more than Palm anyways.
    I think it's easier if it is Standalone --> aGPS conversion than the reverse, as usually going from aGPS --> Standalone will require firmware/driver replacement.

    Certainly anything is possible, but wit no custom ROMs for the Treo Pro (lack of updater makes it difficult), people may have to wait a bit.

    Still, we're getting ahead of ourselves here...lets just wait and see what is released

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  4. #44  
    Well many of us said Palm would use the GSM Treo Pro battery in the CDMA version (won't mention those who didn't agree or said we just don't know) because it would have been a costly mistake to source a different one.

    Now the CDMA version looks to not have standalone GPS. Wow, this really confirms my decision to puchase the HTC Touch Pro (not that I was going to buy another Palm device anyway). Maybe zbop and others can hack it to make it work. I did see a picture of the tri-color locker screen on XDA. I sure hope all you Palm users could enjoy the tremendous amount of support from the hackers that D and I get. I have mine tricked out without using a custom ROM.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    what people have noticed is that a 30% bigger battery on the Sprint Pro yields only an 11% increase in talk time over the 800w--so that is odd and up for debate; it also has a "faster" 400mhz processor that is slower than a 333mhz one--also odd.

    and as far as scanning the Treo Pro forums, I did but kept getting hit by tumble weeds ;-)
    Respectfully we don't know for a fact that those times are metered int eh same way. Are they certified by anyone?

    What I see is that there are review sites that attempt to test these in more serious comparative ways and they find that these standby and talk times asserted by makers are very often totally inaccurate.

    Also we simply don't know what features that are shared by both 800w and Pro may have been "dialed down" in draw on the 800w to compensate for lower battery.

    I noted two possible ones. there maybe 10 or 15. Some maybe for the telephone functions and some maybe for the other functions.

    Some of those efficiencies could be neutral to the user, although in that case they would e dialed down on the Pro as well, and some of them could result in some loss of utility or quality to the user.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    I sure hope all you Palm users could enjoy the tremendous amount of support from the hackers that D and I get. I have mine tricked out without using a custom ROM.
    I've been down that route with custom roms and while they can be fun, it is really detrimental to the platform as a whole. Don't get me wrong, it's better to have the option than not but it is even better if you don't have to flash your ROM because your phone just works. That's something WM users aren't accustomed too.

    People should not have to void their warranties by flashing with some hacked ROM from a message board just to make up for deficiencies. It's also not viable for most people who buy this phone to advise them to do so. It's a phone, not a hobby.

    Plus, I'm worried that companies will pass on R&D to these communities instead of doing it themselves. It's no mystery that HTC/Sprint "leaks" their ROMs for us to test.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  7. #47  
    If you notice I wrote that I tricked out my device without a custom ROM. My phone works so well it just doesn't need it. First thing I wanted was to put all the program icon's into category folders. Found it over at ppcgeeks. I can go on but the support is overwhelming. This one example but what I was referring to earlier.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    If you notice I wrote that I tricked out my device without a custom ROM. My phone works so well it just doesn't need it. First thing I wanted was to put all the program icon's into category folders. Found it over at ppcgeeks. I can go on but the support is overwhelming. This one example but what I was referring to earlier.
    Very true. And even over at XDA the stock Sprint ROM is given much credit for being good. I have no plans of changing ROMs and still there are more tips for me to review than I ever have time.

    But still custom ROMs are good because not everyone wants the same setup. People are different and so having a custom ROM helps avoid having to re-customize after a hard reset. This site was full of custom ROMs (for other Palm devices) once upon a time. And it was one of the reasons many flocked to TC.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    My point was that some of the people who denounce the 800w for poor battery life, and praise the Treo Pro for good battery life, also praise the Touch Pro.

    IE: You're seeing a skewed perspective here on the forums.
    i doubt Palm itself, which choose the larger much larger battery, considers itself "skewed."

    I have yet to see a single person here praise the touch pro battery life.

    As far as a skewed perspective, check the CNET user reviews. There are about 80. People who otherwise love the 800w consider the battery life to be a deal killer and or the top listed "con"
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Oh I agree and have said as much here at WME. It's just strange as Sprint usually says "GPS" for everything (aGPS and GPS). So when they specifically say only "aGPS" it's a little disconcerting.

    But certainly there can be errors on that sheet, no doubt.
    Palm has a unique and tortured view on what Standalone is due to their liability. Trying to discern anything about a device's GPS on what they state will now be a problem.

    I don't get why you would be shocked. I thin what the rest of us are saying they have a big fat liability a blunder, and anything specific they say from then out on future products will draw attention to it in the former case.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Palm has a unique and tortured view on what Standalone is due to their liability. Trying to discern anything about a device's GPS on what they state will now be a problem.

    I don't get why you would be shocked. I thin what the rest of us are saying they have a big fat liability a blunder, and anything specific they say from then out on future products will draw attention to it in the former case.
    Forgetting the "standalone" bit for a sec...
    1. This was from a Sprint internal email, not Palm
    2. They said "aGPS" specifically

    Wouldn't they (Sprint/Palm) stating that it is only aGPS open them to huge liability...you know, using the same language as before but now qualifying it? I always thought a correction was admission.

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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post

    As far as using HTC, had they not, HTC would have released the "Treo Pro" themselves--it was literally a stock design of theirs. This way, Palm "officially" keeps HTC out of competition, meanwhile they pay them off. Plus HTC does it on the cheap. Haven't you always wondered why HTC doesn't sell a "Treo killer"?
    Hi Malatesta, I find the aspects of the Palm-HTC relationship to be interesting. Can you provide any source material that shows HTC had the Treo Pro design ready to release themselves? And that Palm knew and hired HTC in order to get their brand on it instead?

    I can't say I know the details of their relationship and HTC having worked "on the cheap". I have not been in their board rooms, so I can't say I know whether HTC might be getting a cut of every Treo Pro sale or just did work for cheap.

    Can't say I agree Palm has kept HTC "out" of competition. Many of HTC's customers are former Palm customers.

    It seems the Treo line didn't require "killing" given it had become so slack in sales that Palm was nearing collapse if they staked the company's future on Treos. Companies make "IPhone killers" because they are in very high demand.
  13. #53  
    Darnell,

    When I mean "treo killer" I specifically mean a HTC branded, front-qwerty WM Pro device, which to date HTC has not done on a competitive level. It's the one design they don't pursue, even though they could. No doubt in general HTC has encroached on what limited WM market penetration Palm had earned with their WM treos. But so long as HTC is making the Treos, they get the money without much risk (branding competition). Not that different on how Asus is reportedly the maker of Apple's popular laptops

    re: the Treo Pro being a HTC stock design and evidence for that--you'll just have to go on my word with that one; there won't be anything public you can find. I'm not even saying anyone here has to believe me on it, but I wouldn't say it if I wasn't confident in its validity. I'm just throwing it out there--but anyone who has used WM Treos in the past will notice a stark contrast in these devices (similar to the Asus/Palm Treo 500). That's not the evidence I'm talking about though, but it should raise flags.

    Palm won't have any more original "treo" devices, they'll all be subcontracted out. It's a shame, imo, but they had to cut the budget to focus on the Pre. Rubenstein slashed Apple's R&D when he entered in 1997 and he did the same to Palm--in fact, no new Treos in 2009. For me, the customizations that Palm brought to WM made it much, much palatable than MS's stock configuration. This distinction is now diminished, but back in 2005/2006 it was stark. Either way, WM is in trouble (separate discussion).

    When I say "on the cheap" that isn't exactly a slight against HTC, it just means they can mass produce devices at a lower cost than their competitors. True, I don't find their products to be the best build quality (on par with say anything Apple), but I don't think they are the worst either.

    Finally, about iPhone killers--ironically, no one has been successful yet in that regard, in fact one could argue that these companies are wasting their money trying to outdo Apple. Newsweek has a really good article with Rubenstein (Palm) about the Pre where he and someone from Elevation flat out say (paraphrasing) "we're not trying to outdo the iPhone, we're doing our own thing"--I think it's a smart move.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/18/2009 at 01:58 AM.

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  14. #54  
    Here's a brief rundown of some of the evidence that the Treo Pro is 90% HTC, 10% Palm:

    http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/th...to_you_by.html

    ...To say I'm 'confident' that HTC is responsible for the lion's share of the Treo Pro is an understatement, I think. I pretty much regard it as established fact.
  15. #55  
    So who makes the Pre? They say HTC nor Inventec had any part in it. Did Palm finally make something of their own? I am not buying it.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    So who makes the Pre? They say HTC nor Inventec had any part in it. Did Palm finally make something of their own? I am not buying it.
    Dieter said his hunch is Compal, but I don't believe that's been verified.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    So who makes the Pre? They say HTC nor Inventec had any part in it. Did Palm finally make something of their own? I am not buying it.
    Check out FPC. No way that Palm designed the Pre. Just look at their in-house 800w. ROTFLMAO
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter Bohn View Post
    Here's a brief rundown of some of the evidence that the Treo Pro is 90% HTC, 10% Palm:

    http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/th...to_you_by.html

    ...To say I'm 'confident' that HTC is responsible for the lion's share of the Treo Pro is an understatement, I think. I pretty much regard it as established fact.
    Dieter, thank you for linking to a related published report. Your article mentions:
    ...
    Our guess, if you haven't gathered yet: there was must have been some collaboration on design between Palm and HTC. There are still Palm touches aplenty here -- the Centro keyboard, Ringer Switch, and WiFi button prove that. On the other hand, we have an HTC-esque power button, battery, and let's be honest here: HTC's been able to design the innards in such a way as to make thin phones in a way that Palm just hasn't.

    So we kinda sorta a wee-little-bit suspect that, hardware-wise, the Treo Pro is Palm on the outside, HTC on the inside.
    ...
    I can't say I see that affirming Palm only did 10%, but it does show HTC had a level of influence on the product design. Also, since nobody in the Treo Pro forums are complaining about the BT headset issues, such as headsets defaulting to low volume on every call, it's likely HTC was in on the internals. Because that is one WM matter HTC overcame.

    Looks like Palm thinks rather highly of HTC and I think there is little doubt.

    Sure my saying it might ruffle some feathers, but it looks to me that Palm has conceded HTC is better in the WM space than they are. (I don't say that to intentionally offend anyone, but because that's how it looks to me.) Palm is focused on their new stuff (aka Palm newness) and they should be.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Sure my saying it might ruffle some feathers, but it looks to me that Palm has conceded HTC is better in the WM space than they are. (I don't say that to intentionally offend anyone, but because that's how it looks to me.) Palm is focused on their new stuff (aka Palm newness) and they should be.
    I don't think that is the understood reason by many.

    First off, Palm has always had other companies actually make the devices. Palm is but 1,000 people in California. They are not a manufacturer and there are no factories on Palm's campus So in fact Palm has used companies like Inventec, HTC, Compal and others to fulfill orders. Sometimes they use two at once, sometimes they switch around. Palm actually moved away from HTC for awhile, then moved back. But that happens often.

    What is different here is level of involvement. Once Elevation took the reigns at Palm, they downgraded WM development. The first of these was the Treo 500 (an Asus device), the second was the Treo Pro. Now the 800w was caught in between this shift. But from here on out, Palm will be using other companies (read plural) to design and make their WM devices--they'll oversee production and add some bits here and there. But HTC is not "locked" in for good--they never are. In fact Inventec, not HTC, is still Palm's largest ODM.

    The next time Palm makes a WM phone, they will have bidders on the contract and they will choose one from the competition. Palm's not like the government with no-bid contracts ;-)

    It's not so much a "they can do it better than us" situation, it is simply money. Darnell, you should know this as you have gone over Palm's financials--they said it in their investor calls. They just don't have the cash on hand to develop in house 2 OSs. Rubenstien slashed R&D and they focused on the Pre; WM got outsoruced.
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    No way that Palm designed the Pre. Just look at their in-house 800w. ROTFLMAO
    Are you suggesting that Rubenstein, the guy who is credited with the iPod, turning Apple around and who is in charge of Palm's product development had no role in the Pre's design? Hmmm...gonna have to call bollocks on that one. Why else would Palm hire one of the best product designers in the industry and yet not use him for their flagship product? I mean, you can't really be serious?

    You don't mesh hardware and software that well with another company's design. Had they done that, it would have looked like another WinMo device. Speaking of, the 800w was a pre-Elevation partners/Rubenstein device. So your point it actaully completely irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by zbop View Post
    Dieter said his hunch is Compal (who makes the Pre), but I don't believe that's been verified.
    Foxconn is also suspected (they are up for the Sony X2 contract and they work with...dun dun dun...Apple big time. Rubenstein would be very familiar with their work).

    Definitely not HTC. How do we know? Simple, the design was never leaked, lol. Seriously, HTC leaks like a sieve--how do you let 25 designs slip out, unless of course it's viral on purpose.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/18/2009 at 08:51 PM.

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  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Foxconn...
    Just relaying what he posted.

    On 1/5/09 he said Foxconn:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...0&postcount=71

    On 1/14/09 he said Compal (look for question #36):
    http://www.precentral.net/palm-pre-y...wered-part-2-4

    If he posted something more recent, I missed it.
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