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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    But they are only as good as their ODM.
    Palm is as good as they strive to be. They can QC the products provided from an ODM and tell the ODM to resolve issues. If Palm was not happy with the product provided by an ODM, Palm could refuse payment and say the product was low quality. Might result in some legal wrangling, but Palm could then work with another ODM if displeased. Palm has stood by the Treo Pro rather firmly and when the crackling issue arose, they jumped up to address issues quickly. Until the announcement of the Palm Pre, Palm promoted the Treo Pro very heavily and still promotes the Treo Pro, sitting it right next to the Palm Pre on their web site. Palm stands by the product and they are as good as they work to be. If they get something from an ODM it is their responsibility to check it out and resolve issues before releasing the product with their brand.

    If Palm did customize some good things in the 800w and those same things were left out of the Treo Pro. It means Palm has a disconnect in approving one device with certain features for release and ignoring making sure those features are in the other device. If they did it for one device themselves in house, all the more reason they had the capability and know how to press the ODM to ensure such existed because they know how it can be done. They could have helped the ODM get it right better than someone without the knowledge, who just hired an ODM and had no knowledge of how to customize devices. It's only to Palm's shame whatever was missed, because they missed it, or they allowed the product to be released without certain features they knew were of benefit.
  2. #22  
    Palm has laid off a lot of their WM team from what I understand. The 800w was the last "in house" Treo. End of an era. Treo Pro is the new: outsource. That's why it all feels so different.

    What they have now is for support and some development, but it's not the same group who worked with MS on the OS at a core level (700w/x, 750, 800w).

    All that means, honestly, is they are no better and no worse than Samsung, Motorola, Asus, etc. who all do the same thing.

    It's WM that's running into trouble now with the tight economy. Companies are tired of having teams dedicated to getting WM to work properly especially with little in return. Pretty soon, we'll just have HTC making WM devices and I'm no fan of monopolies. Luckily there is Android, OSx, WebOS and Symbian.

    Regardless, whatever "flaws" the Treo Pro has wont be any worse than what any HTC device already exhibits. That is, there is an obvious acceptable range of failure and unmet expectations that the market accepts (i.e. sub-par battery life).
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/16/2009 at 02:10 AM.

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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Palm has laid off a lot of their WM team from what I understand. The 800w was the last "in house" Treo. End of an era. Treo Pro is the new: outsource. That's why it all feels so different.
    Good riddance to bad rubbish. Glad to see that Palm finally wised up.
  4. #24  
    All Palm needed was good QC and they would have noticed whatever they wanted resolved and could have told the ODM what to do. And for all we know they might have realized the difference and not cared to address it. It does not take a crack QC team to notice battery life.

    I must say what I've mentioned before. If I personally were running Palm, the company would never use a company that makes competing devices on Sprint's network as an ODM. Inventec makes nothing with their own brand in the USA far as I know. Again, I'm not saying HTC sabotaged anything, but I'd never hire my direct competition to do work for me. Burger King does not hire Wendy's to make burgers for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Pretty soon, we'll just have HTC making WM devices and I'm no fan of monopolies. Luckily there is Android, OSx, WebOS and Symbian.
    Did you not buy pre-WM Palm devices when Palm dominated the Palm OS space? And the webOS space may likewise be dominated by Palm with the Pre being the first device and now it's got some solid buzz going. Are you saying you would not buy a Palm Pre because at the moment Palm has the monopoly on the webOS space? I noticed you did not mention webOS. If I avoided devices where one company dominated the market for that OS, I would not have owned any of the Treos I had before the 800w.

    Can't say I see HTC being the only WM device maker in the future, but we'll see. Palm has stated they plan to continue with WM devices for now.

    Regardless, whatever "flaws" the Treo Pro has wont be any worse than what any HTC device already exhibits. That is, there is an obvious acceptable range of failure and unmet expectations that the market accepts (i.e. sub-par battery life).
    But reviewers so far of the Treo 800w and Treo Pro prefer the battery life of the Treo Pro. We don't have reviews for Sprint's version yet, but with a 1500mAh battery it's highly doubtful it will have worse run time than the 800w.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Good riddance to bad rubbish.
    wait, there's good rubbish? yuck!

    rotflmao
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/16/2009 at 10:15 AM.

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  6. #26  
    darnell,

    the 800w's battery is in-line with other WM devices on the market and is rated as high as whatever HTC is offering up, so there is no QC there to be had. They decided to use an 1150mah battery (same as the Pre and Centro). Every WM can use a bigger battery--even the Touch series.

    As far as using HTC, had they not, HTC would have released the "Treo Pro" themselves--it was literally a stock design of theirs. This way, Palm "officially" keeps HTC out of competition, meanwhile they pay them off. Plus HTC does it on the cheap. Haven't you always wondered why HTC doesn't sell a "Treo killer"?

    re: PalmOs/Pre etc and buying them, Palm does a very good job of marrying the hardware to the software because they own the OS. Such deep level modification works out better (generally). WinMo is not like that which is why HTC has to slap some makeup on it instead of actually changing the OS--their license doesn't allow them too. That's another reason why they enjoy working with Android: more freedom.

    WinMo's strength is its diversity--I'm not a fan of the "shiny black slab" design prevalent today. On top of that, I don't find HTC to make 100% great products. They cut corners, make mistakes and take a few times to get something right. That's fine as long as there are other companies on the market.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/16/2009 at 10:19 AM.

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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    On top of that, I don't find HTC to make 100% great products. They cut corners, make mistakes and take a few times to get something right. That's fine as long as there are other companies on the market.
    Well I guess it's all each person's view of things. I say the same statement about Palm. Perhaps that's why they can work together .
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    And if only that 45% battery capacity increase resulted in a 45% increase in talk/standby/etc times. Unfortunately it doesn't.
    That is incorrect. the use of a smartphone is more like main features/talk/standby. This is not a dumb phone and that "etc" you throw in is 90% of the value of the phone and comprises the difference between this phone and a dumb phone.

    The 45% increase could well resulting in a 40-50% increase for users who use a smartphone for what distinguishes it from a dumbphone

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Additionally HTC did not provide as many tweaks to improve battery life as Palm did.
    Those tweaks, several of which damage utlitly, were more like compensation for poor choices by by Palm on Battery.

    The "tweaks" are more like if a company put in a gas tank much too small, rather than improving the size of the gas tank, or efficiency of the engine, instead ripping out the outside rear view mirrors to reduce drag, or throwing in an ondercapacity air conditioner or a gearing ratio that seriously damaged performance.

    This is obvious shown by the 800w problem with calls not always coming through, a documented complaint on the 800w, which was exacerbated by the the choice of poor polling frequency to increase battery life. Screen brightness is another
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    All Palm needed was good QC and they would have noticed whatever they wanted resolved and could have told the ODM what to do. .
    I think they knew they were going to produce very few 800ws by the time beta indicated the battery was not sufficient
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    This is obvious shown by the 800w problem with calls not always coming through, a documented complaint on the 800w, which was exacerbated by the the choice of poor polling frequency to increase battery life. Screen brightness is another
    You know I have to disagree with Ebag here: my default SCI was 2 when I changed it to 1. I have a friend's Treo who I'm going to do this on to verify (or if anyone else can) but I don't think they defaulted it to 3 as Ebag noted.

    Second, I wrote a blog about how people messing with 3rd party apps can interfere with the phone part--namely you can't answer the phone when it rings, etc. But I'll still concede that there may be something with the radio firmware--a common area of tweaking at ppcgeeks (we have HTC threads stickied documenting the abundant radio firmwares floating around--all have different performances on the same device)

    Anyways, I'm not sure we can say in this case (a) is linked to (b).

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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well I guess it's all each person's view of things. I say the same statement about Palm. Perhaps that's why they can work together .
    Actually, I always thought if HTC and Palm could team up they could make a really good device: Palm handles the low-level OS tweaks, which makes it fast and efficient; HTC handles the top layer and hardware, making it pretty looking.

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  12. #32  
    LOL, still at it guys?

    FWIW, I think the battery life on the CDMA Treo Pro will come pretty close to the GSM Treo Pro, despite having a different radio. We'll never be able to settle this debate until someone does some controlled tests; I'll volunteer if I end up getting one.

    In the meantime, it ain't scientific, but if you want to gauge the difference, simply scan the 800w forum for posts complaining about the battery life, and then do the same on the Treo Pro forum. That should tell you everything you need to know.
  13. #33  
    zbop, actually I don't think anyone is debating whether the Treo Pro gets better battery life: it does

    and we confirmed last night that the Sprint version is rated for "5hrs"

    what people have noticed is that a 30% bigger battery on the Sprint Pro yields only an 11% increase in talk time over the 800w--so that is odd and up for debate; it also has a "faster" 400mhz processor that is slower than a 333mhz one--also odd.

    and as far as scanning the Treo Pro forums, I did but kept getting hit by tumble weeds ;-)

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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    zbop, actually I don't think anyone is debating whether the Treo Pro gets better battery life: it does

    and we confirmed last night that the Sprint version is rated for "5hrs"

    what people have noticed is that a 30% bigger battery on the Sprint Pro yields only an 11% increase in talk time over the 800w--so that is odd and up for debate; it also has a "faster" 400mhz processor that is slower than a 333mhz one--also odd.

    and as far as scanning the Treo Pro forums, I did but kept getting hit by tumble weeds ;-)
    Agreed, it's a question of how much...

    But my point still stands, it's apparently enough of a difference that you don't see anyone complaining about it. Isn't the rated talk time for the GSM Treo Pro the same as the leaked spec for the CDMA Treo Pro? Until there's actual data, it's just the same 5 guys arguing about it, lol.

    Regarding the tumbleweeds, yeah, the Pre seems to have sucked the wind out of all of these forums.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by zbop View Post
    Agreed, it's a question of how much...

    But my point still stands, it's apparently enough of a difference that you don't see anyone complaining about it. Isn't the rated talk time for the GSM Treo Pro the same as the leaked spec for the CDMA Treo Pro? Until there's actual data, it's just the same 5 guys arguing about it, lol.

    Regarding the tumbleweeds, yeah, the Pre seems to have sucked the wind out of all of these forums.
    Zbop, go look at the Touch Pro forums for complaints on battery life.

    You see nothing but good comments here when comparing the Touch Pro to 800w....despite the Touch Pro only being rated for 4 hours of talk time. If you look on the XDA forums, you see people getting 6 hours or less of total life.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Zbop, go look at the Touch Pro forums for complaints on battery life.

    You see nothing but good comments here when comparing the Touch Pro to 800w....despite the Touch Pro only being rated for 4 hours of talk time. If you look on the XDA forums, you see people getting 6 hours or less of total life.
    I'm confused... I thought this was about the Treo Pro?
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by zbop View Post
    I'm confused... I thought this was about the Treo Pro?
    My point was that some of the people who denounce the 800w for poor battery life, and praise the Treo Pro for good battery life, also praise the Touch Pro.

    IE: You're seeing a skewed perspective here on the forums.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    My point was that some of the people who denounce the 800w for poor battery life, and praise the Treo Pro for good battery life, also praise the Touch Pro.

    IE: You're seeing a skewed perspective here on the forums.
    What?! I'm truly shocked?!?

    This is exactly why I said in the absence of hard data, scan the forums and you'll find the truth there. Any given post can be dripping with bias (by both sides), but if you look at the larger picture you usually get a good idea.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I'm shocked that the apparent lack of standalone GPS on the Sprint Treo Pro has not phased you at all. Certainly a surprising turn around! rotflmao
    I'm not really interested in the Treo Pro myself, but I will say this: After Palm's blunder with the standalone GPS claim in their specs of the 800w, I won't believe in what kind of GPS Palm claims the Sprint Pro has until users on Treocentral and PPCGeeks have verified it themselves. Perhaps the Sprint Treo Pro does have standalone, but they're just not advertising it this time. Who knows? No one will until someone gets their hands on one and reports back.

    I took a trip out to Nevada, TX 2 days ago and I didn't have a signal. GPS wouldn't start and I was in the middle of nowhere (although not quite in the amazon like some people claim when it comes to GPS). Luckily, just luckily I had a Sprint HTC Touch lying around (my friend gave it to me because the ESN was blocked and he didn't need it for anything) that I had put Garmin on and was able to find the place I was looking for. Smh@ Palm.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante View Post
    I'm not really interested in the Treo Pro myself, but I will say this: After Palm's blunder with the standalone GPS claim in their specs of the 800w, I won't believe in what kind of GPS Palm claims the Sprint Pro has until users on Treocentral and PPCGeeks have verified it themselves.
    Oh I agree and have said as much here at WME. It's just strange as Sprint usually says "GPS" for everything (aGPS and GPS). So when they specifically say only "aGPS" it's a little disconcerting.

    But certainly there can be errors on that sheet, no doubt.

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