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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I agree to a certain extent....right up to the point where the Pre can handle multiple sources for contacts, calenders, etc.

    My dad (who is a longtime BB user) needs a new phone due to the city doing away with the BB server/service (to cut costs). He's been looking at the WM phones, but hasn't been happy with them due to the complexity. Garnett would be another option, but it doesn't really do what he needs it to.

    When I told him about the contact/calender/etc management of the Pre, he immediately said "That's exactly what I need." He hasn't even seen the device yet, know anything about it, or even used it, but is interested because it will allow him to manage all his contacts regardless of where they come from.

    And given that more and more the lines between "business contacts" and "personal contacts" is blurring, the ability to manage both is a big deal. Currently he uses two different phones, one for business and one for personal, and hates having to carry both.

    WM, BB, Palm OS, or iPhone, none of them offer the feature of the multiple management that Pre is promising.

    IF that feature pulls through the way Palm is saying it's going to (and so far that's a big if), I think it's going to be a hit with the business user crowd.

    Unforturnately, this is not central to the priorities of enterprise environments. PIM management is important but not the final word to enterprise use. Those who deploy smartphones in enterprise settings are most concerned with deployment ease/cost, ease/cost of maintainance, security, and integration with their current network standards. Most enterprise IT managers will not deploy or allow devices on their network until they feel comfortable with how it works, how they can control it, and how secure it is to thier systems and data. The fact that the Pre can pull information from various sources is more likely to deter IT managers unless they have the means to restrict this ability. They like closed systems and not open ones. Your argument is actually a deterant to some business and enterprise users.

    Until a finalized Pre is actually in the hands of enterprise IT managers to evaluate, it's a vast unknown. Windows Mobile & RIM smartphones are a known quantity as far as security, cost, and integration. Nova and it's tools are not even finalized yet. PIM management is great but a small part of the pie to business use.

    All my personal and company contacts on my personal phone are sync'd to my home and work computers using Outlook. There's no need for me to put or pull my data from anywhere else. My employer is comfortable with that situation and so am I. They want me to have business contacts on my personal phone in case I need to call them at night or weekends. As a result, they must accept that I will keep my personal contacts on my work computer.
    Last edited by pgh1969pa; 01/11/2009 at 10:21 PM.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZEROpcs View Post
    Just to add my 2 cents, this bit of info came from a Sprint Indirect marketing rep (Works for Sprint with 3dr parties like Best Buy and Radio Shack) whom is a relatively good friend... Take it as a grain of salt as he was not 100% sure this is still the plan...

    The PRO will be released this month and the 800w will continue to be sold; however it will be blown out at $99 and then $49 on contract (as they did with the Touch) shortly after launch...
    Blown out? Sure sounds like EOL to me. I guess that we can finally put that one to rest. Great news.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Sprint knew about the Pro before they released the 800w (over 6 months ago).
    That is an elementary misreading of the FCC data. i The date the FCC is allowed to release the information is in fact based on immanent sales of the device. You statement is tautology on several fronts.

    Sprint in fact also knew about the next Palm device before they released the Pro. Verizon knows about the next HTC device before the released the Touch Pro. It is safe to know ATT knows about the next iphone!

    This is a typical timetable compressed maybe 2-4 months or so by delays in the 800w and problems the 800w had after it was released.

    The only thing that separates it with a typical timetable is the unique problems with the 800w. If anything it just shows Palm has had problems releases phones as fast as others. (not saying it is solely there fault, they have been cash strapped).

    Hav you com[pared the actual testing dates or are you jsut looking the the FCC release dates?
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    My dad (who is a longtime BB user) needs a new phone due to the city doing away with the BB server/service (to cut costs). He's been looking at the WM phones, but hasn't been happy with them due to the complexity. Garnett would be another option, but it doesn't really do what he needs it to.

    When I told him about the contact/calender/etc management of the Pre, he immediately said "That's exactly what I need." He hasn't even seen the device yet, know anything about it, or even used it, but is interested because it will allow him to manage all his contacts regardless of where they come from.
    Seriously that is not how it works it the corporate environment at all.

    Sprints big problem is the near complete loss of institutional buyers. That is why they have the BB and WM.

    Can webOS take some of that? yes. Will people like your dad be deciding in a corporate environment if, as individuals, they can just choose a new OS and hand it to their IT or their purchasing department? not in almost all cases.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Lots of people were eying the Treo Pro are now saving for the Pre--I think even I might be one of them..
    And lots of people eyeing the Pre will be saving for the next one (Palm or other), specs of which will probably being leaked within weeks of the Pre release.

    It isn't just about our view as a Sprint customers anyway. What do they have, 10% of the market? They lost 6% of net subscribers last year and ATT and Verizon averaged 6% gain. It is when the Pre comes out on opther carriers that will be at issue and that could be a while on GSM and likly be 3 months on Verizon. By then the Pro will be on the market for one year longer than the Pre so they are not really competing devices, other newer devices will be the competition (HTC has said something tend devices this upcoming year?

    Let's face it, regaining customers after a market share free fall is not easy when they are tied to contracts with other providers.

    Anyways, some real pennies could be by exchanging the 800w for the Pro based on the GPS. the resale on the Pro will be much higher when you go for that Pre!
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Seriously that is not how it works it the corporate environment at all.

    Sprints big problem is the near complete loss of institutional buyers. That is why they have the BB and WM.

    Can webOS take some of that? yes. Will people like your dad be deciding in a corporate environment if, as individuals, they can just choose a new OS and hand it to their IT or their purchasing department? not in almost all cases.
    Do we know how webOS will work in a corporate environment? No. So any comments like saying "that is not how it works" is premature.

    Are business users very interested in better PIM than what's currently offered? Absolutely.

    IF Palm pulls through with what they've promised, they just raised the bar on BB and WM big time. BUT until we see it actually in play, we have no way of determining whether that will hold true or not.

    I'm personally of the "wait and see" attitude. But I can say this, every person who uses a BB or WM device for primarily business use that I've talked to about the Pre with (which is relatively few) is extremely interested in the better PIM.

    People are no longer happy with the device that syncs just a single source. They have contacts scattered in multiple locations, and currently many of those have to be entered manually. Syncing to the cloud is a brilliant move on Palm's part, and if they pull it through then I'll be extremely impressed.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Do we know how webOS will work in a corporate environment? No. So any comments like saying "that is not how it works" is premature.
    I know how the market and corprate environments work very well, thank you. It isn't "premature" as to what their attitude will be to a brand new OS.

    you and I and everyone here knows I was not refering to the technicalities of the interface, but what puchasing and IT departments do, what their inertias are.

    also you can't get away from the fact that as a gross number and as a portion of subscribers, Sprint has less cooperate accounts and less coperate lines.

    Employees and even department heads are not going to be able to say: "let's move our 300, 1000, or 5000 lines from verizon to Sprint because I want a Pre!"

    Please don't derail this thread as well.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    also you can't get away from the fact that as a gross number and as a portion of subscribers, Sprint has less cooperate accounts and less coperate lines.
    Since you say that so casually, care to share your source?


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Employees and even department heads are not going to be able to say: "let's move our 300, 1000, or 5000 lines from verizon to Sprint because I want a Pre!"
    Of course not. But plenty of companies allow their employees to use their own device if it's compatible.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post

    also you can't get away from the fact that as a gross number and as a portion of subscribers, Sprint has less cooperate accounts and less coperate lines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Since you say that so casually, care to share your source?
    I guess some folks didn't know. Aero is 100% correct and Sprint is the smaller of all the big name national carriers.

    And here's something else:
    April 4, 2007...
    Sprint has been struggling to integrate recently acquired Nextel and has been losing a substantial number of subscribers and employees in the process. Last week, Sprint lost its bid to become a prime contractor for the federal government's massive Networx contract.

    Sprint also has been racing to deploy an advanced 3G network as well as WiMax in an effort to regain its lost business and boost new business.
    Sprint having less when it comes to subscribers whether corporate or not is very much known.

    That would be why Sprint keeps their rates so low.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I guess some folks didn't know. Aero is 100% correct and Sprint is the smaller of all the big name national carriers.

    And here's something else:


    Sprint having less when it comes to subscribers whether corporate or not is very much known.

    That would be why Sprint keeps their rates so low.
    Neither of those show that Sprint has less corporate accounts.

    For all you know Sprint has an abnormally high number of corporate accounts.

    Additionally that first link is from 2005.

    There are several reports from mid 2008 that show sprint as having 50 million subscribers, more than double the four year old report you linked to.

    Not to mention the question of comparing worldwide carriers to a US only carrier. Shoot, any major China carrier will make any US only carrier look like chump change.

    So care to explain how a four year old report that's doesn't even have anything to do with the original claim ("Sprint has less corporate accounts") proves Aero 100% correct?
  11. #131  
    Ebag333, do you believe that Sprint is struggling more than the other major carriers to stay afloat?
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333, do you believe that Sprint is struggling more than the other major carriers to stay afloat?
    It doesn't matter what I believe.

    If I believe something to be true, then I state "it is my impression that this is the case" or "this is what I think".

    I try very hard not to make statements such as "Everyone knows that Sprint has less corporate accounts" or "Good to have confirmation that the 800w is being returned left and right."

    If you wanna claim something to be true, then fine, do so. But don't get all defensive and try and dodge the subject when someone calls you out to prove what you're claiming is true.

    If you think something is true, then say that. But don't say "It's a fact that XXXXXX" then turn around and say "Well that was just my believe". Either it's a provable fact, or it's an opinion/rumor.

    Lately there have been a crapton of claims that people make (and continue to make) without any actual proof (and indeed, sometimes even with proof in the opposite direction).

    If you're gonna claim something, fine. But (regardless of whether I agree with you or not) you'd better be prepared to back up that claim.


    So once again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    So care to explain how a four year old report that's doesn't even have anything to do with the original claim ("Sprint has less corporate accounts") proves Aero 100% correct?
    Or are you going to keep dodging the question?

    There's nothing wrong with admitting there are things we don't know.

    I don't know how well Sprint is doing, because I'm not part of the board meetings where they discuss profit and loss. I haven't looked at their quarterly reports. Frankly, I don't care. With over 50 million subscribers they aren't going anywhere soon, and worst case scenario they get bought out or merge, which likely means zero effect to me as a customer (heck, people still have all nextel setup phones/plans/etc).

    But don't try and pull a fast one by claiming that a four year old report which has nothing to do with the original claim is somehow proving him right.
  13. #133  
    And of course, this proves nothing

    Sprint Nextel shares plunge as subscriber list dwindles

    Sprint loses another 1 million wireless subscribers

    Although a big WiMAX deal brought some good news to Sprint Nextel last week, the beleaguered wireless provider sounded a less happy note today, reporting the loss of about one million additional subscribers last quarter, along with a $505 million drop in revenue.

    The number of subscribers for Sprint's current 3G services fell to 52.8 million for the first quarter of 2008, down from 53.6 million during the same period a year ago.

    Despite some gains in prepaid customers, Sprint lost 1.07 million post-paid subscribers, or customers who pay monthly cell phone bills.

    In contrast, AT&T and Verizon Wireless each recently announced quarterly gains in wireless customers, implying that Sprint is losing market share in its current 3G business to those two rivals.
    ...
    In a conference call with analysts, Sprint CEO Dan Hesse suggested that Sprint is still considering some sort of sale or spinoff of its acquired Nextel business, which has given rise to many of the subscriber losses due to technical problems with Nextel's iDEN network.
    ...
  14. #134  
    I thought this was about the Treo Pro, not a referendum on Sprint's health.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  15. #135  
    So in other words, you have ZERO proof for Aero's claims, only general statements that have nothing to do with the claim.

    And instead of being a reasonable person and admitting such, you continue to try and dodge around the lack of proof.


    Personally, I believe that Sprint does have a higher number of consumer than business users. But that's my personal belief, I don't tout that as fact. To do otherwise is dishonest.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    So in other words, you have ZERO proof for Aero's claims, only general statements that have nothing to do with the claim.

    And instead of being a reasonable person and admitting such, you continue to try and dodge around the lack of proof.


    Personally, I believe that Sprint does have a higher number of consumer than business users. But that's my personal belief, I don't tout that as fact. To do otherwise is dishonest.
    You crack me up man, really you do.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Personally, I believe that Sprint does have a higher number of consumer than business users. But that's my personal belief, I don't tout that as fact. To do otherwise is dishonest.
    Well you, me, and all the analysts, know they have fewer relative large corporate lines and accounts it so stop trying to derail the thread when some very basic, elementary and easy to understandfacts are presented.

    My point was about how we are not going to see as much Enterprise pickup of this device very early on for two reasons:
    1) Sprint does not have the majority of the enterprise and large corporate market. Sprint is loosing not gaining customers. ATT and gaining and not losing customers. Sprint and Palm have less money to support those customers, they have less money to market. Even without the cold hard facts against Sprint, Sprint already has less customers than either. They have business customer problems because that is what they say themselves
    2) there is inertia at pickup up of new untested operating systems by corporate IT departments. They are conservative. There is training, testing, consideration of security issues, and starting costs.

    As far as large business accounts, duh! Sprints entire strategy in buying out nextel was to try and correct for this relative deficiency in this sector. They then lost huge numbers of nextel people.

    The losses by sprint have been primarily in the corporate accounts. What are they doing whining about it if it isn't a fact!

    This device does have business sector potential. It will be very slow, because it is new OS, because Sprint has been hemorrhaging business accounts and because Palm's marketing, has seen to define it as a "big fat middle" product and is spinning the WM are their business devices.

    Have you dealt with corporate IT and purchasing on the +ten million level for devices they will be handing out to employees? you make it seem like you think they are early adapters? You could not find a more conservative and risk averse culture if you tried
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    when some very basic, elementary and easy to understandfacts are presented.
    Then it should be very basic, elementary and easy to understand for you to provide proof of these claimed facts.

    Facts are called fact's because they are provable. I can prove the fact of gravity (drop something). I can prove the fact that air exists around you (try breathing ).

    So...can you prove the fact that Sprint has less corp subscribers, or not?

    I'm guessing not. (But I'm not claiming that guess as a fact either, now am I?)
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    This device (Palm Pre) does have business sector potential. It will be very slow, because it is new OS...
    I agree with this. Though it looks to have Exchange out-the-box which is a step in the right direction.

    People laughed at the iPhone too in this regard, but it clearly has entered the business market strongly once Exchange support was added.

    What is against the Pre though is (1) time (2) price. One good thing about WM is the varying ranges of prices for the devices.

    That's where the Sprint Treo Pro fits in nicely: WM business devices, moderately priced (cheaper than Pre probably) and tested.

    It'll fill that Pre gap for business for 6-9 months nicely.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    That is an elementary misreading of the FCC data. i The date the FCC is allowed to release the information is in fact based on immanent sales of the device. You statement is tautology on several fronts.

    Sprint in fact also knew about the next Palm device before they released the Pro. Verizon knows about the next HTC device before the released the Touch Pro. It is safe to know ATT knows about the next iphone!

    This is a typical timetable compressed maybe 2-4 months or so by delays in the 800w and problems the 800w had after it was released.

    The only thing that separates it with a typical timetable is the unique problems with the 800w. If anything it just shows Palm has had problems releases phones as fast as others. (not saying it is solely there fault, they have been cash strapped).

    Hav you com[pared the actual testing dates or are you jsut looking the the FCC release dates?

    Whats the point of the 800w wouldn't Sprint or Palm have lost money on it for marketing and production for such a short period and to retool the factories? I don't really understand why they would produce a phone for one carrier Sprint and only intend to keep it on the market for a year?

    And not to be sarcastic, but how many times will the CDMA 800 Pro be quote "around the corner" or "800w Pro will hit stores ]next month]!!!" ? I am losing my excitement; I think someone needs to tell Palm Marketing about the boy who cried wolf, or we will just think of Palm Marketing as a car alarm and pay no attention.
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