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  1. #41  
    My $.02 . . . there is no update or new ROM coming for this phone. It will be left for dead on the side of the information superhighway.
  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by pgh1969pa View Post

    I have been looking at the Touch Pro but I really like having a keyboard present on the front face of the phone without a slider (one handed operation). Palm will be offering the Treo Pro but I don't think I want to give them another dime. I guess I'll have to get used to having another slider. I really was hoping that the Samsung Epix in CDMA form would make it to Sprint but no such luck.
    If you do get a Touch Pro, consider trying TouchPal.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by socomon View Post
    My $.02 . . . there is no update or new ROM coming for this phone. It will be left for dead on the side of the information superhighway.
    That's a safe bet. I'm going to leave this phone behind too.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Both aGPS modes require connection to Sprint's servers (they both use data).
    The primary aGPS mode, accurate time, needs no data connection in an ip served sense. Unless you mean voice connections are also "connections to the servers".

    There are super accurate timing devices sold that simply use the CDMA relayed microseconds accurate time.

    So if you understand that aGPS doesn't always require ip session type served data, and includes any data sent by the carrier network we are on the same page on that.

    I am curious what you mean by blocking the data connection. Do you know how CDMA sends the GPS time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Autonomous mode will allow the GPS to function a without a data connection, without access to any aGPS information* (see exception below that is specific to the 800w), and without cached information.
    The exception specific to the 800w kills the standalone or autonomous mode.
    The very first aGPS mode the 800w attempts is aGPS accurate time assistance.

    *Autonomous mode for the 800w still requires the network time (or "accurate timing assistance"). This means that the 800w is still effectively aGPS, even if it uses a method which is normally used in standalone devices.
    Look if you are going to say autonomous mode requires the aGPS accurate time assistance, then you are eliminating the autonomous mode.

    a requirement of information from the carrier network is specially what precludes definition of GPS as "standalone or "Autonomous" GPS in the sense used by the engineers, including in patents by qualcomms company - snaptrack.

    The logic you bring to this, really, means that if a downland of almanac or ephemeral data were required from a carrier (every ten minutes, or two hours or 8 hours, or to start), you would say it is an autonomous or standalone GPS because it also concurently uses the satellites? No.

    The only only reason to use the term autonomous or standalone is to state it needs or requires no network elements -- not "some network elements"

    Both standalone and Autonomous GPS are characterized int eh literature and by serious GPS engineers as not using network elements not dependent on network elements -- and not as a side or partial condition but as the ab solute conditions.

    This is all really quite simple. This is if a company advertised to the public and sold a "self starting fluorescent" where everyone understands that this means no external ballast needed, where the patents, tech papers etc speak of "self starting" as not needing a ballast, where everyone understands that is the particular advantage of the "self starting" and then it turns out to need a ballast. One cannot logically state, from any perspective that it is "self starting" if you first hook it to a ballast each time you need it if it still runs (for a period of time) when the user removes the ballast!
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by pgh1969pa View Post
    That's a safe bet. I'm going to leave this phone behind too.
    Wide decision. Seems to be a VERY popular choice.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    If you do get a Touch Pro, consider trying TouchPal
    Thanks for the heads up...this may help things along quite a bit.
  7. #47  
    *facepalm*

    I knew you were going to do this. Once again, you are basically ignoring what I actually wrote and putting your own spin on it.

    I must admire it though, you do it as masterfully as any politician.


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    The primary aGPS mode, accurate time, needs no data connection in an ip served sense. Unless you mean voice connections are also "connections to the servers".

    I am curious what you mean by blocking the data connection. Do you know how CDMA sends the GPS time?
    Let me be clear here. Hopefully you can grasp this.

    I'm not talking about the network time requirement.


    The two Assisted modes (Assistance-Spherical and Assistance-Cartesian) both require a normal, everyday data connection. That's the same connection that you use to check your e-mail, surf the web, etc.

    You block it the same way you would any other other internet application (Data settings, uncheck "Allow connection to the Internet").

    And if you block it, it doesn't matter who's network you are on, GPS fails to initialize. This isn't because of the network time (you get that whether you block data or not), it's because the Assisted modes needs a data connection to download information from Sprint's servers. (For anyone who's done my tweak in QPST, GPS will still continue to function thanks to the cache and autonomous GPS modes, but there the GPS is using a different mode, and not Assisted.)

    It's pretty basic. With the 800w in stock configuration, no data = no GPS. This is why GPS failed to work on roaming networks which were voice only (and worked on roaming networks with data).


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    So if you understand that aGPS doesn't always require ip session type served data, and includes any data sent by the carrier network we are on the same page on that.
    If you're talking about aGPS generically, yes, that is true. If you're talking about the two specific Assisted options on the 800w in QPST, then this is untrue as both of them require a data connection.

    These are separate from the network time requirement.



    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    The exception specific to the 800w kills the standalone or autonomous mode.
    The very first aGPS mode the 800w attempts is aGPS accurate time assistance.
    *sigh*

    Aero Aero Aero Aero. You keep ignoring what I'm saying completely.

    Autonomous receivers will attempt to correct the Ionospheric and Tropospheric errors bases on mathematical models which are very limited in their accuracy. They have no way of correcting for orbit errors, multipath or receiver noise.
    Autonomous methodologies is a form of finding the Sat's based on mathematical formulas. It doesn't mean that doesn't require information from the network, it's just how it finds the sats.

    This is the traditional method of GPS units. Pre-aGPS, this is how they all functioned (including the ones you've mentioned which used the network time, but don't connect to an GPS server to download data).



    From here on out lets consider standalone and autonomous to mean two separate things, m'kay?

    Autonomous = using math to find the sats (as opposed to downloading it or using cached information).

    Standalone = Not requiring any information from the network (able to initialize and run completely off network).
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    You block it the same way you would any other other internet application (Data settings, uncheck "Allow connection to the Internet").
    And if you block it, it doesn't matter who's network you are on, GPS fails to initialize.
    Ebagg -- congratulations. I have solved your problem in understanding the aGPS on the 800w! you have a broken 800w! Just exchange it under warranty because it is busted. My 800w if you block the data connection (using redundant methods), and reset and get a clear view of the sky the GPS works fine

    That is why you ares so far off on this stuff!

    Did your hack break this normal function of the 800w on your handset? Maybe you should be more careful?

    I was trying to figure out what you mean all this time when it is contrary to all the testing done back in July and August by users here and by Palm. Your phone is broken and not functioning like anyone elses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I knew you were going to do this. Once again, you are basically ignoring what I actually wrote and putting your own spin on it.
    People are ignoring your totally unique and contrary opinion on standalone and autonomous because of all the industry data stating you are wrong. ok? Don't blame the users here. Actually I am using industry standards and you are not, but -- "sigh" -- we all know that.

    What is with all that "sighing" at being confronted with actual terminology?

    Why be so patronizing when you had never used the term Accurate time assistance, which Palm will tell you today is the term for the stumbling block?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I must admire it though, you do it as masterfully as any politician.
    My background is technical. Your "blind" acceptance of the Palm Faq has been criticized by many. You alone accepted the non technical definition - the silly CYA Palm definition that has everyone with a tech background laughing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I'm not talking about the network time requirement.
    Not talking about the carrier network requirement and the difference between aGPS and Autonomous/Standalone in a discussion about a difficulty caused by a CDMA Time requirement? What?

    To use your words: "Sigh, let me give you a lesson":

    Of the three assisted modes one requires and uses the aGPS relayed CDMA time and two optionally require a normal, everyday data connection. That's the same connection that you use to check your e-mail, surf the web, etc.

    If you have no data connection the GPS initializes but slower (FACT).
    If you have no voice connection the GPS will not initialize at all, hack or not.

    This is because of the primary and required aGPS mode, accurate time assit does not need a data connection to download aGPS data required by the 800w.

    For anyone who's been mislead by the false statements otherwise GPS will still continue to function thanks to the fact that aGPS will work in a Sprint CDMA range without DATA as we have all been saying since JULY.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Autonomous methodologies is a form of finding the Sat's based on mathematical formulas. It doesn't mean that doesn't require information from the network, it's just how it finds the sats.

    **Sigh** Wrong, there you go again

    GPS Engineers define Autonomous as finding stats independent of network assistance like aGPS accurate time assistance.

    ALL GPS -- aGPS, autonomous GPS use mathematical formulas. (lol: Tautologies dont count)

    Autonomous means if doesn't require information help or time from the carrier. that is what all the literature states.
  9. #49  
    100% correct again, aero. It's clear that you understand what you're talking about.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    <post>
    I don't know why I even try and explain it.

    You keep flat out ignoring what I'm saying, going back to things that aren't even being discussed, and picking apart what I'm saying.

    I said a long time ago I'm not going to argue with you, and unfortunately I've not done that. Well, consider it my New Years resolution.

    Some people may believe you know what your talking about, and you may know some things about it....but that doesn't mean squat when you don't do anything with your knowledge, and when you try and tear down the people who are doing something with theirs.

    Feel free to reply, but I'm quite done.
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post

    GPS Engineers define Autonomous as finding stats independent of network assistance like aGPS accurate time assistance.

    ALL GPS -- aGPS, autonomous GPS use mathematical formulas. (lol: Tautologies dont count)

    Autonomous means if doesn't require information help or time from the carrier. that is what all the literature states.
    I think GPS engineers know what they are talking about and do plenty with their knowledge.

    I trust their judgment of the 800w and can't call the 800w an autonomous GPS device (not even with whatever hacks are added); can't call it a stand alone GPS device either. Everything I've looked at from other sources agrees with what Aero has been saying about the use of the terms "autonomous" and "stand alone".
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I don't know why I even try and explain it.

    You keep flat out ignoring what I'm saying, going back to things that aren't even being discussed, and picking apart what I'm saying..
    Is that your thank you for me fixing your inability to get GPS lock while data is blocked? Man up friend.

    Have you even tested any of what you are claiming to find out how wron? you have been.

    Ignoring what you are claiming vs.and testing what you claim and fining that your premises are wrong are two different things.

    Ignoring what you are claiming vs pointing out that what you are claiming is the opposite of what GPS engineers and experts state is not being argumentative, it is correcting your gross errors so other people don't have problems.

    It ins't just about you and I. You have been disinforming people about the way the GPS on the 800w works. It is simple as that. Now the one person who didn't know it, you , knows it.

    You just finally ran some real tests and found out I have been right.

    Result: Huff Huff Huff

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Some people may believe you know what your talking about, and you may know some things about it....but that doesn't mean squat when you don't do anything with your knowledge, and when you try and tear down the people who are doing something with theirs.
    you are the one with the patronizing tone. the "sighs" the winks at your own swipes at others, etc

    You don't have the vaguest how much time I spent hunting down (and paying for) academic papers, technical filings, talking to real GPS engineers.

    I was the first to take the 800w overseas and confirm that would not work and posting my findings.

    Palm support said I was wrong so I I got a another and took both, tested them overnight, clear view. Nada.

    Months later I drove everywhere with the 800w, two different dedicated units, a touch pro and even a treo pro installing different software, hunting roaming spots, hunting dead spots

    On three occasions I publicly stated why I understood how you were saying something different then everyone, with your claim's on defining standalone despite the fact that you are harming everyone's interest by removing the pressure on Palm, the responsible entity for the broken feature, and our real hope for getting this fixed soon.

    You claimed Palm's advertsing was correct. everyone else says it is wrong and misleading.

    You claimed they are not legally responsible. Everyone else knows they are.

    And now you made claims the way the 800w aquires that are probvable incorrect and lectures on aGPS vs GPS that are FALSE.

    You also are abusing your trust with the Bug list, refusing to put known bugs in it (PRL bug)

    Last night you must have tested the unit with my test on data and now know you were wrong and exactly why we wee disagreeing in the posts. Your repeated statements that disabling data killed the GPS were complety untrue and now you know it. I don't even want to bother with why you are also mistaken on caching on 800w becasue you won;t accept that either!
  13. #53  
    You rock, aero. Thanks for all of your work with regards to testing the defective GPS and trying to get it to work.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I think GPS engineers know what they are talking about and do plenty with their knowledge..
    We have the Palm faq, which contains several errors and mistakes and contradictions in describing the way 800w works.

    We have a consensus among users, and experts that standalone does not work.

    We have a consensus and expert explanations as the how one aGPS functions, accurate time assist, created a forced condition of CDMA contact thereby nullifying Standalone GPS.

    We know for a fact that there are only three reasons why aGPS through accurate time time assistance would be forced instead of optional:
    1) substandard hardware
    a) poor GPS RF sensitivity
    b) substandard clock
    2) Intentional disabling of Standalone GPS
    3) an easily correctable programming error

    Yes, we have one poster claiming the GPS engineers, Qualcomm's own filings and everyone else are wrong. They also claim Palm is not legally responsible for its own warranted adverting to public claims (?), that failing a Palm fix people seeking recourse to the BBB are "whiners", adn made grossly exaggerated claims on cold, warm and hot TTFF of other GPS devices on the market today.

    This poster also claims a data connection is required for any 800w GPS lock, which is untrue, meaning they
    a) apparently the poster has a broken 800w and is lecturing based on that; or
    b) they busted their GPS through screwing aroudn with ##GPS#; or
    c) incredibly haven't bothered to test all their "hacks" with a real GPS diagnostic, and used client inherently dependent on ip session data eg google maps -- a failure of "troubleshooting 101"!
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    You also are abusing your trust with the Bug list, refusing to put known bugs in it (PRL bug)
    Surprisingly no one posted this in the bug thread, as I had requested folks to do so if there was a bug that had not been added yet. Guess it wasn't that big a deal to anyone.

    Anyway, thanks for reminding me of this, Aero!

    Not only will I add this to the bug list, but I'll also post how to update it yourself!
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Surprisingly no one posted this in the bug thread, as I had requested folks to do so if there was a bug that had not been added yet. Guess it wasn't that big a deal to anyone.
    Seriously, it was discussed in October in a prior problem thread and you commented on it yourself. The last issue I brought up on your bug thread, the maps location order issue, was unchanged after my comment, despite the fact that you can duplicate that a soft reset does not fix this.

    Mainly I disagree, strongly, with your characterization of the Standalone GPS issue on the bug thread and I do not believe it all represents the consensus of users. You are not going to allow any opinion but your own on that and I consider that to be wrong.
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Surprisingly no one posted this in the bug thread, as I had requested folks to do so if there was a bug that had not been added yet. Guess it wasn't that big a deal to anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    No it's not because of a single disagreement. It's because of several. Some I and I'm sure other have not even bothered to mention, after seeing how you've handled things with others.
    It's not that people don't know or care about certain bugs, but they're not going to go back and forth with you over them. So some people are simply not going to participate in your bug thread at all.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    It's not that people don't know or care about certain bugs, but they're not going to go back and forth with you over them. So some people are simply not going to participate in your bug thread at all.
    That's their choice not to post there. But if there's zero mention of it in the thread, kinda silly to blame the person for not including it, neh?



    The original thread had several errors in it, and hadn't been updated in months. It was obviously out of date and needed updating. You or anyone else could have easily taken the time to start a new bug list thread. The very fact that you chose not to speaks volumes. Shoot, go start your own thread if you want. Nothing's preventing you from doing so.

    I find it interesting that some people feel the need to attack the people who are working on fixing problems at every angle, yet continue to contribute nothing of their own.
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    That's their choice not to post there. But if there's zero mention of it in the thread, kinda silly to blame the person for not including it, neh?



    The original thread had several errors in it, and hadn't been updated in months. It was obviously out of date and needed updating. You or anyone else could have easily taken the time to start a new bug list thread. The very fact that you chose not to speaks volumes. Shoot, go start your own thread if you want. Nothing's preventing you from doing so.

    I find it interesting that some people feel the need to attack the people who are working on fixing problems at every angle, yet continue to contribute nothing of their own.
    Given your reluctance to add some other bugs and you having known about some that were not on the list, no surprise nobody said anything to you about it.

    Plenty of us have been mentioning issues with the device for some time now. In various threads we've all made comments in.

    But if you want more participation in your bug thread, you might want to consider being a little less reluctant to include things people mention.
  20. #60  
    This is all getting too personal.

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