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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Looks like we can say goodbye to a bug-fix for the defective GPS on the 800w. Darn.
    How do you figure?

    If that were the case, would they not have re-labeled it simply "aGPS" instead? That could be read as an admission of "no fix is coming" (or at least fixing their advertising). And actually, their "Support" page is now up and in the .pdf for specs, it still says "standalone and assisted" and it's still there in their FAQ.

    But lets hear your theory, I'm curious.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/06/2009 at 02:44 AM.

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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Welp, fwiw Palm has revamped their website and under the 800w (which is still featured prominently) they have removed any mention of "autonomous" or "standalone" from their GPS specs.

    In fact, the Treo Pro and 800w are both listed as just "GPS" which is pretty much how everyone lists these things (not making the aGPS/GPS distinction).

    I wouldn't read too much into this as it looks more like trying to simplify the site.
    Hardly about "simplifying the site". they got caught and there have been formal complaints.
    I was informed and sent you a note a few weeks back that they intended to do this. you may conclude this was triggered by a legal question in writing citing multiple sources for definition. Perhaps they learned published and peer reviewed experts would say it is not standalone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    If that were the case, would they not have re-labeled it simply "aGPS" instead? That could be read as an admission of "no fix is coming" (or at least fixing their advertising). And actually, their "Support" page is now up and in the .pdf for specs, it still says "standalone and assisted" and it's still there in their FAQ.

    But lets hear your theory, I'm curious.
    Because they perhaps they can't fix it . Their faq was not written for your or my benefit, they are written as a legal CYA. they can't remove that because, although they maybe going through looking for areas elsewhere they can change the wording, probably most of the 800w that will ever be sold were already sold with that standalone claim at time of sale. So the faq needs to stand as a backrack

    They seem to be offering a refund (at lower than actual cost ie invoiced cost) to people who make BBB complaints. Perhaps if/when the Pro comes out they simply plan to offer a Pro privately as an exchange to anyone who individually makes a serious stink. Either could be cheaper than an actual fix.

    We also still have one (single) user stating here and elsewhere that it functions as standalone despite the aGPS accurate time assistance requirement that kills standalone. Palm could use that to as a defense citing user interpretation

    Of the several aGPS assistance factors it uses, the overriding aGPS requiring accurate time assistance, alone is known to make up for GPS sensitive problems. You speculated at one point a possible factor might be inherent antenna problems. If that is the case then the aGPS time relayed by towers aGPS requirement could be not a per se cause but is an effect of a deeper cause and they simply may not be able to fix it.
    Last edited by aero; 01/06/2009 at 08:05 AM.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Hardly about "simplifying the site". they got caught and there have been formal complaints.
    I was informed and sent you a note a few weeks back that they intended to do this. you may conclude this was triggered by a legal question in writing citing multiple sources for definition. Perhaps they learned published and peer reviewed experts would say it is not standalone.
    Correct.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    And actually, their "Support" page is now up and in the .pdf for specs, it still says "standalone and assisted" and it's still there in their FAQ.
    That first link quoted above is not simply a "support" page, but the product data sheet linked as the 800w "Brochure" on the product's "Details" page. So Palm has not changed their statements on the device at all. Previously on the old site design, the claim of "stand alone and assisted" GPS was on the "specs" page, now those "specs" are in the "Brochure". On the "Details" page "Brochure" under "Specifications". Nothing has changed on Palm's end regarding their promotion of the 800w as a stand alone and assisted GPS device, when the device DOES NOT do true stand alone GPS, it's an assisted GPS device.

    And this document is in my opinion still as bogus as it always was:
    Your Treo 800w smartphone supports both stand-alone GPS and Assisted GPS (A-GPS).
    Not just my "opinion" but as Aero has already cited, GPS experts affirm the Treo 800w does NOT truly support stand-alone GPS. It only supports what I and others have found to be Palm's concocted definition of "stand alone".

    And Sprint's "full feature list" for the device is unchanged. They claim autonomous and simultaneous GPS in a device that can only do simultaneous GPS and Sprint Navigation requires a data connection.

    Anyone buying an 800w today is in my opinion being as falsely advertised to as we who purchased on day one.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Looks like we can say goodbye to a bug-fix for the defective GPS on the 800w. Darn.
    I agree and leave it to Palm to disprove the "theory".

    So far, the only "fix" they've offered anyone over the GPS issue is a full refund. Never has Palm made any promise they will fix the defect.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Your Treo 800w smartphone supports both stand-alone GPS and Assisted GPS (A-GPS).
    In the entire history of the issue exactly one person and only one person here has claimed it works as standalone. I don't think Mal would or does calim it does. I think his position has been he has agreed it is not standalone as advertised, but that the issue is unimportant for him (he lives in the Northeast where it is hard to escape CDMA).

    We only have one person claiming it is standalone and not laughing at the Palm FAQ doc and its errors, it is just that that person has posted all over the place here and elsewhere claiming 800w is Standalone works.
  7. #27  
    Let me refresh:

    The point of my post above was it initially looked like Palm has altered the specifications on the 800w--for whatever reason. In fact, it looked like it erred on the "full GPS" side instead of more accurately reporting it as "aGPS".

    However, they continued to update the site (so I amended my post) and under the Support section, it appears they kept all the controversial language the same as before.

    Conclusion: nothing has changed in their advertising, despite first appearances. Nothing to see here, move on.

    My own opinion of this whole situation is irrelevant to the info I was conveying, so don't drag me into that fight.

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  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post

    Conclusion: nothing has changed in their advertising, despite first appearances. Nothing to see here, move on.

    My own opinion of this whole situation is irrelevant to the info I was conveying, so don't drag me into that fight.
    Glad we agree.

    Never was there an intended attempt to drag anyone into a "fight". We're all just sharing what we find and offering our thoughts on it.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Conclusion: nothing has changed in their advertising, despite first appearances. Nothing to see here, move on.

    My own opinion of this whole situation is irrelevant to the info I was conveying, so don't drag me into that fight.
    Actually they changed it significantly. The way the site used to be Standalone GPS one of the very first features that was flogged by Palm on its site was standalone. It was ahead of camera, MP3 etc. The Palm ballyhooed Standalone GPS is now not present on the first click into features as it once was.

    Moreover the footnotes on GPS on the first page have now been entirely changed.

    Fact: Palm used to list Standalone GPS as one of the top features presented to the prospective buyer right in the front of its presentation of features

    On dragging anyone into the fight, there is'lt a fight. there is unanimity here and in the GPS world that the 800w does not have the Standalone GPS it once prominently advertised with the exception of one person/. No one is dragging you into a "fight" there is no fight. Just one person spreading a view no one else holds. I was just noting that sicne the repeated assertion that standalone works by a single prolific poster has caused such heat in these forums.
  10. #30  
    For me, the solution is going to be to off load the Treo 800w later this year. I actually need full autonomous GPS for when my job and personal travels takes me to places where I CDMA roam (Mexico & Canada) or have no CDMA service at all and I need to navigate to a site. Also, I travel overseas (W. Europe & Africa) and would like to atleast use the PDA and GPS functionality of the device with Tom Tom, Pharos, and GPS Tuner. I got all the maps that I need for the US, Canada, W. Europe, and East Africa but I don't always have a CDMA tower to get things started.

    Right now, my international travels require me to carry a CDMA phone, a GSM phone, and my Pharos GPS 525. If the 800w worked as advertised, I could just carry the 800w and a GSM phone. I can't walk away from Sprint and go with AT&T because Sprint's data rates are relatively dirt cheap. I use alot of data.

    My prior Sprint phone (Mogul) could be easily hacked to work in full autonomous mode (albeit, slow) and made a perfect traveling companion.
  11. #31  
    pgh1969pa,

    Just due to the more universal status of GSM, I would splurge on a robust GSM phone with standalone GPS. Preferably something with a large screen.

    If you do Ebag's hack, you can at least use the 800w on CDMA roam in Mexico & Canada--not a perfect solution, but perhaps a minor workaround.

    Personally, as much as I like the 800w, I would never use it as a primary GPS device--not enough battery, screen too small for such a dedicated job. In fact, most PPCs fall into that category

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  12.    #32  
    Pgh1969pa, it's good you've done away with any attempts to float the idea that you were somehow recruited by Aero to come here and speak about GPS.

    Since when you had a Sprint Mogul your GPS access was not a major issue, you'll be all set once you've got a Sprint device that does true stand alone and assisted GPS. Currently the Touch Pro and Touch Diamond do it and there is speculation that the Treo Pro will also.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    If you do Ebag's hack, you can at least use the 800w on CDMA roam in Mexico & Canada--not a perfect solution, but perhaps a minor workaround.
    Just for precision my 800w aGPS was working in Canada in CDMA areas as of October. The 800w is attemtping to get several types of aGPS information. The key one that it requires, the "accurate Time assistance GPS", was not a problem for me. I actually have more trouble getting it relayed by my airave at home

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Just due to the more universal status of GSM, I would splurge on a robust GSM phone with standalone GPS. Preferably something with a large screen.

    Personally, as much as I like the 800w, I would never use it as a primary GPS device--not enough battery, screen too small for such a dedicated job. In fact, most PPCs fall into that category
    Mal, Everyone has different usages. I have been traveling to Europe for 20 years for work. If you have a very generous employer and don't pay anything then the no brainer is to get ATT.

    But realistically what a lot of us do is have a GSM dumbphone. You can pick one up in Europe for prepaid for $50locked and $100 unlocked new and you cn get them for $30 here used. You just stick in prepaid sim at your destination. But if you traveled there a lot on your own dime or your own company you would realize that data costs on roaming or prepaid will be incredible. You could easily hit the cost of a unlocked GSM handset in one day of emails.

    If you have Wifi on your CDMA Smartphone you will find (both licit and illicit) free wifi very plentiful in European cities. If you are doing business in Milan you can check your email ten times a day, brows the web, your comany's intranet back home, snyc your contacts, download google maps all easily and for free. Obviously your also camera, MP3, note taking, document work and everything separating a dumbfound and a smartphone work.
    Last edited by aero; 01/06/2009 at 12:13 PM.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    pgh1969pa,

    Just due to the more universal status of GSM, I would splurge on a robust GSM phone with standalone GPS. Preferably something with a large screen.

    If you do Ebag's hack, you can at least use the 800w on CDMA roam in Mexico & Canada--not a perfect solution, but perhaps a minor workaround.

    Personally, as much as I like the 800w, I would never use it as a primary GPS device--not enough battery, screen too small for such a dedicated job. In fact, most PPCs fall into that category
    I don't want the hack because it is only a limited solution. I'll revert to the Pharos unit because it works all the time everywhere with TomTom/Pharos/GPS Tuner.

    I have been using a Windows Mobile GPS solution for atleast six years and it is more than adequate. I can see the screen very well and actually have very little need to view it because of voice prompted navigation. Dedicated GPS units are larger and disadvantageous when trying to pack everything I need for work and/or travel such as a laptop, a handheld meter or o-scope, tools, documents, a digital camera, a company phone, my phone, a mp3 player, Bluetooth headphones, wired headphones, a vent mount for the GPS, and power adapters. Having it built into my cars offers no advantage when I'm in a rental. A WM device is an absolutely perfect solution for me.

    I am considering the ETEN Glofiish DX900 since it contains a more accurate SiRF Star III GPS (with real standalone GPS) and not a Qualcomm fiasco. It also has GSM capabilities but it is not available in the states at this time. I'd rather have the Treo 800w / Motorola V4 combo because the combined size is smaller than the Treo 800w / DX900. I would also consider the ipaq 910c. At the end of the day, I need a real GPS that always works.

    I will not be switching to GSM in the states and I will need GSM abroad.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    If you do Ebag's hack, you can at least use the 800w on CDMA roam in Mexico & Canada--not a perfect solution, but perhaps a minor workaround.
    That hasn't been proven yet. Though all indications do show that this is true.


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Just for precision my 800w aGPS was working in Canada in CDMA areas as of October. The 800w is attemtping to get several types of aGPS information. The key one that it requires, the "accurate Time assistance GPS", was not a problem for me. I actually have more trouble getting it relayed by my airave at home
    No one said that the 800w didn't work on some roaming towers. It always has, that's been well tested.

    With the change in GPS by enabling the GPS cache options (and only those three modes, you can disable the aGPS ones if you'd like to test), then the 800w appears to work on all roaming networks/towers.

    I say "appears" because I haven't tested it on every CDMA network around the globe, yet. But I haven't found a roaming tower (and we have quite a few around here as the towers are owned by different companies and rented out to Sprint/Verizon, rather than them owning the towers) yet where it doesn't work.


    This indicates that there is something other than "accurate Time assistance GPS" that was missing, otherwise the GPS would still not function.

    It's clear in those circumstances that the 800w could not reach the aGPS server, rather than having issues with getting the network time. You can test this by clearing the GPS cache, and it will fail to connect.

    OTOH if you disable all options other than autonomous, it will connect, albeit it will take 5+ minutes to do so. This is regardless of the network you're on, or if you have the GPS cache with current info (meaning it's not using the aGPS server and it's not using the GPS cache).
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    No one said that the 800w didn't work on some roaming towers. It always has, that's been well tested.
    yes I tested it in July.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    With the change in GPS by enabling the GPS cache options (and only those three modes, you can disable the aGPS ones if you'd like to test), then the 800w appears to work on all roaming networks/towers.
    Yes but you cant disable all the aGPS. the primary and required aGPS is the "accurate time assistance aGPS. We all now know what it is and that you currently can't disable it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    This indicates that there is something other than "accurate Time assistance GPS" that was missing, otherwise the GPS would still not function.
    If the accurate time assistance aGPS is not present it will still not function

    It is the only requiste -- get back with Palm and ask them!

    Stadalone GPS: A stand-alone GPS receiver can obtain full locking to GPS satellite signals, without having any other information about the system except nominal carrier frequency and the rules by which data carried by the signals are modulated.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    If the accurate time assistance aGPS is not present it will still not function

    It is the only requiste -- get back with Palm and ask them!

    Stadalone GPS: A stand-alone GPS receiver can obtain full locking to GPS satellite signals, without having any other information about the system except nominal carrier frequency and the rules by which data carried by the signals are modulated.
    Do you ignore what I say and just post? I mean, seriously.

    First off, I never said it didn't require the network time. Quite the opposite.

    Secondly, requiring the network time (or as you like to call it: "accurate time assistance") has nothing to do with the fact that the 800w requires something above and beyond that to work properly on all roaming networks (and not just some).

    That something is either cached GPS mode and/or autonomous GPS mode enabled.

    This has nothing to do with standalone GPS. (I've perhaps used the word "standalone" where other terminology would be better used, but I've never said that you can take the 800w off network, or turn off the radio, and start up GPS.)
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    First off, I never said it didn't require the network time. Quite the opposite.
    The point was what seems to be your implication that this is not aGPS, when it is a core aGPS method. It is non-trivial given that this is the requirement and the only requirement of the 800w, and quite specifically what broke the Stadnalone..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I've perhaps used the word "standalone" where other terminology would be better used, but I've never said that you can take the 800w off network, or turn off the radio, and start up GPS.
    All is forgiven. I mean seriously that is all you had to say. By all the engineering documents, patents, standards this is a binary. Standalone does not mean independent only of ip served data, it means independent of anything but satellites. And as I am sure you have seen by now from doing some checking the accurate timing assistance is considered aGPS just like ephmeris and almanac.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Pgh1969pa, it's good you've done away with any attempts to float the idea that you were somehow recruited by Aero to come here and speak about GPS.

    Since when you had a Sprint Mogul your GPS access was not a major issue, you'll be all set once you've got a Sprint device that does true stand alone and assisted GPS. Currently the Touch Pro and Touch Diamond do it and there is speculation that the Treo Pro will also.
    Nope....I don't know Aero and was never asked to comment on his post. I just know what Palm and Sprint call standalone GPS is an outright misrepresentation of truth at best.

    I have been looking at the Touch Pro but I really like having a keyboard present on the front face of the phone without a slider (one handed operation). Palm will be offering the Treo Pro but I don't think I want to give them another dime. Besides, I'm not certain the whole Treo Pro cracking thing is behind them. I guess I'll have to get used to having another slider. I really was hoping that the Samsung Epix in CDMA form would make it to Sprint but no such luck.
    Last edited by pgh1969pa; 01/06/2009 at 04:40 PM.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    All is forgiven. I mean seriously that is all you had to say. By all the engineering documents, patents, standards this is a binary. Standalone does not mean independent only of ip served data, it means independent of anything but satellites. And as I am sure you have seen by now from doing some checking the accurate timing assistance is considered aGPS just like ephmeris and almanac.

    I've said similar things before, Aero. I'm sure that as soon as I state something about the functionality, but using a different term, you'll be jumping all over it again.

    Let me save you the time:

    800w requires network time for initializing (starting) GPS. This makes it effectively aGPS for all intents and purposes.

    Both aGPS modes require connection to Sprint's servers (they both use data). This is why some roaming networks worked, and some didn't. It's why if you block the data connection, GPS will fail to initialize (assuming cached and autonomous modes are disabled).

    All three cached modes don't require data. The purely use the cached information off their device. All three cached modes still require a network time.

    Autonomous mode will allow the GPS to function a without a data connection, without access to any aGPS information* (see exception below that is specific to the 800w), and without cached information.


    Autonomous

    The method involves using a GPS on its own with no additional correction information other that what is broadcast by the GPS system.

    Autonomous receivers will attempt to correct the Ionospheric and Tropospheric errors bases on mathematical models which are very limited in their accuracy. They have no way of correcting for orbit errors, multipath or receiver noise.
    Autonomous is often called "standalone" because this is how standalone GPS receivers function.

    *Autonomous mode for the 800w still requires the network time (or "accurate timing assistance"). This means that the 800w is still effectively aGPS, even if it uses a method which is normally used in standalone devices.




    From now on I'll be sure to use autonomous instead of standalone. It's a more appropriate term anyway, since it's what Qualcomm calls that method of acquiring sats (though inside WM it's called "standalone").
    Last edited by Ebag333; 01/06/2009 at 03:21 PM.
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