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  1. #41  
    The GPS lag on the 800w was with using other software like iGuidance compared to the same software running on the Touch Pro or Mogul. It's not bad but the 800w certainly has more lag.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    The GPS lag on the 800w was with using other software like iGuidance compared to the same software running on the Touch Pro or Mogul. It's not bad but the 800w certainly has more lag.
    I have not compared iGuidance. It is possible that it does not run as well on the 800w due to the way it is coded. For example some programs simply scale their display for 240x240/320x320 instead of handling it properly. This can cause the program to run poorly on the square screen. I haven't used iGuidance extensively and cannot say if this is the cause, but is merely offered up as an example as to the type of thing that can cause a particular problem with a particular program.

    That would be the exception however, rather than the rule. It's quite clear that any lag is from the program rather than the hardware.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    There was a lot of skipping going on, but the position was always within 100 feet of where I was at, which is very good given the conditions.
    Running tomtom on my 800w I get up to 100' lag compaired to dedicated tomtom. With Garmin on the 800w it was worse. rapid acceleration and deceleration and buildings created the biggest lag relative to a dedicated unit.

    As I said earlier I saw no difference between the Treo Pro and the 800w with position lag when running the same software.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Running tomtom on my 800w I get up to 100' lag compaired to dedicated tomtom.
    That matches pretty closely with my experience, though it seemed to be typically more around 30-40 feet than 90-100.

    100 feet or less is really no big deal, considering that on the freeway that's about 1 second of travel time (60 MPH = 1 Mile per Minute = 88 Feet per Second). In town it's slightly worse, but still you're talking about only 2-3 seconds behind.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    That matches pretty closely with my experience, though it seemed to be typically more around 30-40 feet than 90-100..
    Agreed on those numbers. And I get lots of differences on any single device. On the very same device I can see form zero to full city block lag.

    Obviously the specific navigation programs try and compensate. one method is side to side compensation which is why tomtom, garmin, igo software will place you a road when simply switching to google maps may place you 20 or 30' off the road. I think the term for this is "road snap." "On forward movement TomTom and Garmin will also keep going with no signal present for a certain amount of time. For example I can drive through the Lincoln tunnel at night and go the whole way with TomTom and Garmin showing my progress. What is telling though is that If is start into the tunnel at 40 mp it will show 40 mph the whole time even if I slow to 30 mph and visa versa. so clearly these programs simulate movement with no data at all for some period of time. They also smooth or average movement at the program level so they are less jumpy then google maps for example.

    That was one of my concerns with the way the polling and reporting occurred. I read one comment where someone was surprised that "even walking" there was lag. Lag is worse walking with all gps I have used.In pedestrian mode movement is all over the place with dedicated GPS and you can walk sometimes for 20 to 30 seconds before seeing the dot move on the best of them.

    So this leaves a bunch of potential causes and combinations:
    1) poor gps reception in a given unit or model of a unit
    2) poor reporting of the unit data to the os and or os to programs (due to programing error or lower level processessing preference or drivers)
    3) poor matching of a particular front end program (garmin, google maps) to the processor
    4) inherent deficiency in the main processor
    5) use of video intensive program with video processing better on one unit then the other
    6) users comparing to vehicle units which have better hardware (specifically accelerometers)
    7) users not familiar with lag present to some degree on all devices
    8) users comparing non predictive or non compensating programs to compensating programs present on dedeicated devices
    9) users running concurrent programs that conflict or create enough load on the processor or demote the precedence of GPS position reporting processes.
    10) differences in regional hardware (difference in country models of the htc),
    11) presence of front end programs (eg htc's front end) that may reduce overall performance of the device but that can be removed.
    12) scaling issues (going to 320x320, which I think you mentioned)

    So that is a mix of real non repairable deficiencies, deficiencies repairable by the maker, deficiencies that the user can mitigate, and merely perceived deficiencies.

    I think there will be more and more attention paid to this as more people use their smartphones for navigation. my observation on using the 800w for navigation vs my dedicated unit is this: The dedicated unit has its software and hardware matched by the maker. So it runs better. It also has a bigger screen than you get with treo type unit. On the other hand instead of one or two or five million points of interest on a dedicated unit I get a bazzillion through google on my 800w. areal view is already super cool and the "street view" is scary cool. I also have my phone with me 99% as a matter of course and my nav unit with me only when I am in my own car..

    So I think we will see more and more interest on GPS on these devices.

    The more we can objectively compare them, knowing that many variables can affect real or perceived postion and general nav software perfomacne, the better everyone is served.

    Directly to you ERbag333, I would like to once again beat the horse on the Standalone issue. At one point I really did try and say that I thought the difference between us was not so much diametrical opposition, but rather that you were looking at it by breaking down the processes and the rest of us were looking at whether it ultimatly fuctioned or not.

    Your perspective is highly effective for trouble shooting. I applaud that perspective of yours. Really I understand that point of view. So when you said the initialization was the problem and otherwise it was "working" I understand why you would put it that way. You are looking the chain and identifying the broken link. If palm would or could fix it this is a very important perspective and information.

    Please look at it from the consumer point of view. Standalone that is 90% working but ultimately will not fuction at all as true standalone at all is not 90% working but 100% not working from the purchaser's perspective and reasonable expectations. For those of us interested in the value of a feature advertised, the specific problem is less of an issue than attempting to press the seller to fix it and deliver the promised feature functionally. (Really the promulgation of the FAQ by Palm caused the real anger. )

    So with GPS being one of the growing killer apps/features for smartphones I think questions as to lag, general quality of gps reception, agps method, TTFF, integration and reporting out of the data to the OS and programs -- and whether it is actually standalone, are things we all should be interested in, testing, and in a postion to help other users with in determining value of the gps within a unit for their needs.

    I think the discussion on the htc pro, treo pro and 800w furthers that positively. I will certainly say that for all its little problems, WM provides a pretty good platform for those seeking to exploit and use and integrate the gps data. So it isn't even just about the hardware. It should be interesting to see how using the gps data woks on nova and android for needs from using full blown nav softeware to simple things like embedding gps cordinants on pictures taken with a device.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Your perspective is highly effective for trouble shooting. I applaud that perspective of yours. Really I understand that point of view. So when you said the initialization was the problem and otherwise it was "working" I understand why you would put it that way. You are looking the chain and identifying the broken link. If palm would or could fix it this is a very important perspective and information.

    Please look at it from the consumer point of view. Standalone that is 90% working but ultimately will not fuction at all as true standalone at all is not 90% working but 100% not working from the purchaser's perspective and reasonable expectations. For those of us interested in the value of a feature advertised, the specific problem is less of an issue than attempting to press the seller to fix it and deliver the promised feature functionally. (Really the promulgation of the FAQ by Palm caused the real anger. )
    I will be the first to admit that I'm rather stubborn, but the whole GPS thing honestly confused me and frustrated me...mostly because I was agreeing that standalone GPS was broken, and merely attempting to explain what exactly was broken. Only to be told that I was wrong, didn't know what I was talking about, etc etc etc.

    Keep in mind as well that I've tried very very very hard to replicate the loss of GPS off network post initialization. I've failed to do so except in circumstances where we already know that it will fail (IE: soft resetting off network).

    One of my hobbies is traveling on forest service roads (and sometimes on trails that one can only call a road in the most general sense ) far away from civilization. I've put the 800w's GPS through a half dozen trips at least, and literally hundreds (if not over a thousand by now) of miles. It's worked perfectly for me the entire time, completely off network.

    I cannot explain why my GPS works exactly as Palm's FAQ states it functions, and yours apparently does not. Yes Palm's FAQ has a lot of interesting wording (which doesn't exactly thrill me), but the long and the short of it is that the way the FAQ describes the phone functioning....is the way my phone functions.

    In the end, I can only go by the way my phone functions. I don't have access to yours, or Vibrant's, or Hannip's, or anyone else's (though I would love to get my hands on a couple of those to do some testing myself). Especially when I've done such extensive testing and based on the level of familiarization that I have with the device, it's baffling to me when someone reports the exact opposite behavior.....especially when there is absolutely no good reason for the phone to behave the way it does. (I'm sure that this is the part of my post that some people will quote and then claim that it's the crappy engineering by Palm.)

    At this point in time I suspect that the amount of time I've put into testing and messing with the GPS is probably near (if not over) 100 hours. I know it's literally dozens of hours at the very least (I spent at least three full weeks working on it pretty much straight through, and revisited it plenty of times since then).

    That might not be the "consumer" perspective, but that's my perspective. I'd rather be the guy actually trying to fix the problem, then the guy who's telling the guy who's trying to fix it that he's wrong and doesn't know what he's doing or talking about. But maybe that's just my perspective.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    That might not be the "consumer" perspective, but that's my perspective. I'd rather be the guy actually trying to fix the problem, then the guy who's telling the guy who's trying to fix it that he's wrong and doesn't know what he's doing or talking about. But maybe that's just my perspective.
    The fix would have to come from Palm. I spoke at very high levels and they told me it was disabled and not going to be fixed.

    So the main issue was pressure on Palm. What they did was fix it in the next device.
  8. #48  
    I got my STP coupled with an Arkon that's attached via some Walmart epoxy that was cured for over a week on my dash on my car. Then I just use Sprint Navigation. Works perfectly and no need to do anything else or buy anything else. I even get the sound to work over my bluetooth audio via my speakers from my AVH-P5100DVD Pioneer receiver using Jetwaremobile software. If anyone needs to know how to get the epoxy to work perfectly lemme know. If you do it right, it'll hold for good to hold the mount.
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