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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    The problem I've seen reported from multiple people (and this has come up a for the Treo Pro as well) is that when aGPS/QuickGPS isn't working correctly, acquisition times are extended (meaning it's falling back on standard GPS). There is something setup wrong there, and I suspect the issue lies with QuickGPS as that's the differentiating factor here.
    Standalone always takes longer to aquire satellites than aGPS. Google could have told you that if you were confused on the subject.
  2. #22  
    Running Navigator 6 and Google Maps. No lag. They work quite well on my GSM TP.
  3. #23  
    Treo Pro with Tom Tom 7 works phenomenally well.
  4. #24  
    [QUOTE=Ebag333;1530340]That's simply not true. There have been plenty of side by side comparisons between the Touch Pro, other devices, and yes standalone GPS devices.[/url].

    Yeah and they show the 800w lags more sometimes and the two pros lag more sometimes. Sometimes they show a Nuvi or TomTom lag more sometimes! All handheld devices have position lag. TomTom and Nuvi handhelds do. You have people claiming lag on the Pro vs another unit and then people claiming more lag on the other unit then the pro.

    My Treo Pro and Touch pro lag LESS than my 800w in many cases. People are seeing a natural affect of any device that lacks accelerometers.

    Person after person on this thread are saying they are seeing no lag with their Treo Pro yet you, they guy who doesn't own one, keep saying it has lag relative to the 800w. It doesn't. Neither does the Touch pro relative to the 800w.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawmen23 View Post
    Treo Pro with Tom Tom 7 works phenomenally well.
    Quote Originally Posted by azlarry View Post
    Running Navigator 6 and Google Maps. No lag. They work quite well on my GSM TP.
    Yes that is the consensus.

    As far as battery life on CNET the 800w is famous for bad battery life. If you look at reviews of the Treo Pro it isn't an issue on the same level at all.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Person after person on this thread are saying they are seeing no lag with their Treo Pro yet you, they guy who doesn't own one, keep saying it has lag relative to the 800w. It doesn't. Neither does the Touch pro relative to the 800w.

    As far as battery life on CNET the 800w is famous for bad battery life. If you look at reviews of the Treo Pro it isn't an issue on the same level at all.
    Quoted for truth.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    <stuff>

    Yes that is the consensus.
    It baffles me that you refuse to see what's plain in front of your face.

    • HTC acknowledged that the Touch Diamond and (non-Sprint) Touch Pro has a problem with GPS lag.
    • HTC fixed the GPS lag for the Sprint Touch Pro.
    • Users with the Sprint Touch Pro are reporting that GPS lag appears to be fixed (or at the least reduced to manageable amounts, along the lines of the Treo Pro, 800w, and various GPS pucks/devices).
    • Users with Touch Diamonds, and non-Sprint Touch Pro's still have this issue, it has not (yet) been resolved.



    I have no doubt that HTC will release a patch or ROM update that applies the same fix to the Touch Diamond's and non-Sprint Touch Pro's once they are ready. No doubt the fact that the various devices are using different hardware in addition to different ROM's makes the process incredibly more complicated.

    It's incredibly ironic though to see you claim that there is no GPS lag when HTC themselves have stated that there is. It makes me wonder if Palm had acknowledged the problem with standalone GPS on the 800w if you would have claimed that it worked perfectly fine.

    So here we have me, the supposed Palm fanboy, pointing out that HTC had not only a great turn around on acknowledging the problem but also did the risky (and costly) move of delaying a release to fix it. That's something that Palm needs to do more of. HTC has so far done a good job of handling this, lets hope that they continue by releasing an update to fix older devices.

    And then we have you (and nsxprime) claiming that HTC is lying when they say that the problem reported by thousands of users exists, and that they are also lying about fixing it (since according to you the problem doesn't exist).


    Gee, I wonder which of the two makes more sense. That the problem exists, and HTC acknowledged it, fixed it for the Sprint Touch Pro--or that HTC is lying when they say the problem exists, and thousands of users are wrong.



    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    As far as battery life on CNET the 800w is famous for bad battery life. If you look at reviews of the Treo Pro it isn't an issue on the same level at all.
    Pretty sure that this is what's called a "dead horse". Also pretty sure that no one on here is talking about battery life. This is a complete non sequitur, which doesn't help your argument any.
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Quoted for truth.
    I've read that phrase once before but am rather unclear as to what it means. Does it just mean that you agree with it, or that you have some means of proving it all to be true (which will presumably be revealed shortly)?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
    I've read that phrase once before but am rather unclear as to what it means. Does it just mean that you agree with it, or that you have some means of proving it all to be true (which will presumably be revealed shortly)?
    QFT or Quoted for Truth means he's just quoting the post to affirm that he believes in it.

    As Wikipedia says:

    "Quoted For Truth" - "qft" is a label used on Internet forums when someone quotes a debated statement, thereby ensuring that the original statement can not be edited or deleted by the person being quoted. Later also used as a sign of agreement with another poster.
    Many people use it for post padding as well (increasing their post count without actually posting anything useful).

    QFT posts are rarely useful in and of themselves.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
    I've read that phrase once before but am rather unclear as to what it means. Does it just mean that you agree with it, or that you have some means of proving it all to be true (which will presumably be revealed shortly)?
    People have tested it side by side. I got the same position on a Treo Pro, Touch Pro, TomTom 750 dedicated device and 800w all running TomTom.

    If you look at the posts being cited for lag quite a few are talking about program redraw lag in Garmin -- something noted long ago here on the 800w! Example:
    Quote Originally Posted by crazie.eddie View Post
    I recently installed it on my 800w and it seems to be allot more stable. As far as accuracy, that's a little different. It's still a little laggy, but I guess I can live with it.
    ....
    Cons...
    1. Video lag. Driving on the road, doesn't appear smooth. It looks like my vehicle is jumping every 50'-100' or so.
    2. Recalculation takes a few seconds,. After about 50-100' after making a turn, Garmn takes a few seconds to realize I'm not on the same route, then recalculates the new route.
  10. #30  
    < < Edited by Dieter > >
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Standalone always takes longer to aquire satellites than aGPS. Google could have told you that if you were confused on the subject.
    Exaclty. That is another "lag" people are talking about, the longer acquisition on standalone mode. For handsets that have both you have the option of oen benefit or the other. It is silly to say the acquisition is "lag" as some have claimed when it is an option.

    We have redraw lag (something that happens on the 800w with certain GPS programs and which their are multiple notations by many posters, position lag which all devices have, and acquisition time on standalone all being conflated as being the same problem.
  12. #32  
    GPS lag is a real concern since the GSM Diamond does seem to have this issue as 749 users (64%) have stated they do have a lag, yet goes away when using a BT SirfIII solution. This, along with HTC acknowledging the issue and fixing it for Sprint, seems extremely credible.

    Since HTC makes the Diamond and the Treo Pro and both use Qualcomm chipsets, it is reasonable to bring up this issue. And since Diamond users (and this seems to extend to GSM Touch Pro and Touch HD as well) are missing turns and exits while using their nav software, regardless of the "technical" explanation (blame) for the behavior, it renders the use of GPS nearly useless for turn-by-turn navigation.

    Here the lag is mean to refer to your position as being reported 5+ seconds behind your actual position. Some are lagging behind 20 seconds. What is odd is that some people experience it, others do not. Some experience it with specific software while not others.

    The issue that was evidently fixed by HTC/Sprint was this, from Criticalaudioinc:
    The diamond and pro are very related that's why the questions do not bother me and the pro did have a few of the same issues as a the Diamond, One was the GPS lag which turned out to be a reg fix or change, The issue was the GPS was set to refresh ever 100ms and that is two high and fast and the GPS will shut off or fail. The change was to set to every 300ms which is a good setting and the same setting for GPS refresh rate as the Tom Tom and Garman
    Now, back to the Treo Pro, it appears as if it is not a problem on this device which is a good thing. However, vigilance and being aware of what is at issue is critical for this device and others. Fact is, there are a lot of variables here: type of antenna, design, interference, chipset, drivers, software, etc. This is technical stuff and variation between devices is to be expected. Understanding that is important for the end user.

    Personally, I believe Qualcomm's GPS solution to be not as good as SirfIII (like those found in tiny BT units, like the Freedom keychain and other WM smartphones with SIII). This view is shared by GPSPassion, which is pretty trustworthy. They adequetdly demonstrated, imo, that GPSOne falls behind in many areas e.g. HDOP, signal strength and # of satellites. This has nothing to do with on board accelerometers.

    However, Qualcomm's solution is easier to implement and cheaper than SirfIII and aGPS certainly has it's advantages over SirfIII standalone. Always trade offs with whatever technology you go with.

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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    And then we have you (and nsxprime) claiming that HTC is lying when they say that the problem reported by thousands of users exists, and that they are also lying about fixing it (since according to you the problem doesn't exist).
    Who says HTC is lying and who at at said "thousands" of users complained. Where are you getting "thousands?" It looks like about 20 or a fraction the number of poeple complaining about GPS and Battery life on the 800w.

    You have posted links that are about issues other then position lag and conflating them as one issue. Position lag occurs with all devices. Redraw lag also can be seen on several devices. Google map download at speed lag occurs with many including the 800w. Soem of the peopel on those threads are talking about "lag" when they mean TTFF (time to first fix)!

    When you cite a thread where people are complaining about redraw problems with GARMIN on the Pro it was funny since the 800w has documented redraw problems with GARMIN as well. Some of the posts have to do with redraw on google maps at speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Pretty sure that this is what's called a "dead horse". Also pretty sure that no one on here is talking about battery life. This is a complete non sequitur, which doesn't help your argument any.
    You brought it up on this very thread on GPS!
    You brought up the issue and then say people are "beating a dead horse" which is a "non sequiter" by correcting you when you brought it into the thread!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    This is an interesting trend. First the various carriers (all of them, apparently) are accused of falsifying battery life measurement tests.
    No one said they falsified the battery life, but rather that these are adverting claims (like Standalone GPS) which are subjective.

    That is why real tests by groups that do things like skype playback are more accurate. They show the maker claimed talk time claims are often exagerrated and not a good benchmark.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    GPS lag is a real concern since the GSM Diamond does seem to have this issue as 749 users (64%) have stated they do have a lag, yet goes away when using a BT SirfIII solution. This, along with HTC acknowledging the issue and fixing it for Sprint, seems extremely credible.
    Well the same position lag occurs in the 800w. Do take Deiters pro and your 800w and test it at the same speed with a variety of software (gmaps, garmin, TT).

    I get the same lag on the two treos. With my nuvi I get less lag, but here is the kicker my nuvi shows me as continuing to move when I have stopped and the Treo and Touch pro show me a stopped earlier!


    This all has to do with predictive elements in the software. for example on the Treos with TomTom you get different positon lag depending on whether you have programed a destination.

    Lastly have you looked at garmin and TomTom forums? Position lag is a very common complaint.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Who says HTC is lying
    I'm sorry. I thought you had said that the bug that HTC admitted exists involving GPS lag wasn't true. If you're not saying that HTC is lying, then you are agree that there is GPS lag for the non-Sprint Touch Pro's and the Touch Diamonds.

    Your post #11 certainly read to me as that the Touch Pro does not have abnormal lag, but you must have meant the Sprint Touch Pro, where HTC fixed the bug.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    ALL GPS devices have Lag. The Touch Pro and Treo pro have no more lag than a dedicated Tom Tom or GArmin unit when running those programs. The 800w has the same "lag"
    Thanks for clarifying. Can be rather confusing when there's significantly different versions of a phone with the same name.
  16. #36  
    Ebag333:

    Look I have now read all the threads over at xda and ppc on the lag.

    I agree the Touch Pro does seem to have lag for those users -- a majority. I also note there are several expert long time users there, who have had other GPS deivces who see no appreciable lag. think the jury is out on the Treo Pro. I would like to see tests. I have run the treo pro and 800w side by side and seen no significant difference. In some cases the 800w lagged more and visa versa.

    I would like to point out a couple of things:
    1) When you say thousands of users, you mean hundreds. But I would point out that the reason you may not see such numbers in the Treo 800w is that nowhere near that number of people are active (probably because of lower sales) as our own polls on any issue number an order of mag lower.

    2) There are many people in those threads throwing in issues other than objective comparison of position lag on handsets. To poll asking "do you have lag" is not meaningless but it is problematic since you see this complaint on some of the best dedicated GPS devices.

    3) there is objectively established wicked redraw and positon lag on Garmin on the 800w compared to Tomtom. those of us who have tried both will say this and several people have. Garmin lag on the 800w is a full city block.

    So I will revise and agree that there is lag on the htc. I dont see it but that maybe my use. I tested with several platforms simultaneously with several different sets of software.

    As you say HTC is working on a fix. I guess tha tis better than simply a faq.
    Here is my observations on the differences:
    1) Both HTC and Treo Pro have longer TTFF then 800w. 800w TTFF is phenomenal.
    2) The 800w GPS downside compared to the Pros are limited to no standalone
    3) All three have foibles with wm gps handing. Example all three have problems with both live maps and google maps sometimes reporting no fix yet when you invoke another program you can get a fix.

    Lastly, yes my test was with Touch pro, Treo pro Treo 800w, my Garmin and a friends TomTom.

    I hope you recognize I was also trying to point out that a number of these people maybe experts with other handled gps, but some others maybe not adn a) comparing to car GPS which have accelerometers; b) may not have used GPS much at all; or c) maybe using programs that don't compensate (TomTom has compensating algorithms and google maps doesn't).

    Also we don't know if some of the other programs, for example stock the front end of the HTC, which we know causes some general slow down but can be disabled maybe contributing. The 800w I tested side by side had mobile shell.

    For all we know the CDMA treo pro may not even have standalone. Palm may have had to make sure standalone worked ont eh GSM due to lack of a provider.
  17. #37  
    I've heard bits a pieces about GPS lag, but haven't paid attention (mainly because I have an 800w) - does the lag occur with Sprint Nav, or only with 3rd party nav software? Just curious.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    think the jury is out on the Treo Pro.
    I agree. In fact, despite that I've seen several posts/threads about GPS on the Treo Pro I'm leaning towards normal lag as opposed to the lag issue's that are being experienced on the non-Sprint Touch Pro's (and apparently Diamonds). While Treo Pro users are a pretty small base still, I would think there would be much more feedback on the GPS lag issues if it was really a true issue. I don't think it's been completely resolved one way or another however....at least in my mind.



    Anyway, glad that's been cleared up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I've heard bits a pieces about GPS lag, but haven't paid attention (mainly because I have an 800w) - does the lag occur with Sprint Nav, or only with 3rd party nav software? Just curious.
    The issue appears to be with more CPU intensive applications. This seems to be supported by the fact that there is an application that limits CPU usage of your GPS app, and quite a few people have reported that the lag has gone away when the limiting app is in use.

    Several people have theorized that the issue is either the GPS driver not having enough priority, or that it is polling too fast (or both). I've heard that the fix for the Sprint Touch Pro was to reduce the polling speed. I haven't seen anyone port that to the non-Sprint Touch Pro's (yet, I may have simply missed it in the huge amount of posts/threads about the GPS lag) so that makes me wonder if it's only the simple registry change that some people claim it is.

    The lack of it being ported yet (or even fixed long ago by folks who have worked on this) certainly seems to indicate that the problem is deeper and more complex than this. The situation is certainly not helped any by the various versions of the Touch Pro that are floating around, and that many of them use different forms of hardware.


    Anyway, that's a long answer to say that people have experienced it in really most every GPS program. It seems to be much worse in CPU intensive ones, but the problem is going to exist at one extent or another in all of them.
  19. #39  
    Any idea if we could get the Sprint Touch Pro GPS driver to work on the 800w? The 800w's lag is really annoying. I doubt that it would fix the standalone bug but maybe it could help with the lag.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Any idea if we could get the Sprint Touch Pro GPS driver to work on the 800w? The 800w's lag is really annoying. I doubt that it would fix the standalone bug but maybe it could help with the lag.
    Different hardware. Different features. Won't work.

    Even switching drivers between phones with the same hardware does not always work.

    I'm not sure of the lag you're talking about for the 800w. There's no positional lag beyond what's normal/typical, and the acquisition time is extremely quick. As long as I have view to a decent number of satellites, I pick them up quickly. Even in cases where I'm initializing GPS with a very poor number of sats (like from inside my house where I get about 3, and those signals poorly), it's under 5 minutes, and that's about the worst case scenario you'll run into. (Well, other than no satellites that is.)

    As a matter of fact I was quite impressed with the GPS, the other day I was downtown Portland and going through an area where we were between lots of buildings and down between some hills so the connection was very very poor and spotty. Despite only having two to three sats (and at times cutting out completely) the position stayed pretty accurate. There was a lot of skipping going on, but the position was always within 100 feet of where I was at, which is very good given the conditions.

    I've compared the 800w to my GPS puck, several different in car navigation systems, and a couple different phones. The 800w has about the same time to acquisition for picking up the satellites (comparing it to the aGPS devices, ofc not the standalone devices which take longer), and has about average positional lag (even very similar compared to some of the in car ones, which is pretty amazing given that they will adjust your position to make it seem more accurate than what they actually have). I've used Google Maps, Palm's Maps, TomTom, and a couple of other GPS programs with both my puck and the built in GPS, and seen the same results across the board.
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