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  1. #561  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    When was the 800w "wrapped up and finished for the FCC"? March -April 2008?

    I think we get misled by the FCC release dates. those are marketing decisions. no release until the company decides it will hit the market.

    Thati s why I am surprised at the hypothesizing on the meaning of the FCC testing to release date mentioned, now several times, when it looks quite common.
    I found one document for the 800w that was dated to the FCC (letter of confidentiality) on July 13th 2007. Photos were submitted July 10th 2007. Extension filed April 4th 2008.

    Point being: when you submit to the FCC, that's basically the final product (sans changes they request or revisions which have to be re-submitted). The 800w was finished in mid-2007 and then spent a year in testing limbo with the carriers--that jives with all the "q3 on sprint and verizon" roadmaps that kept coming out, then getting bumped to Q4, Q1, etc.

    If Palm was submitting their CDMA Treo Pro in September 2008, that device had been in development for months prior. It got approval in October and then went through carrier testing for 3 months. Carriers don't do final testing unless it has FCC clearance. Pretty standard.

    There is no misreading of these dates--they are very clear. The 800w was in development and submitted in its near final form in July 2007 and was repeatedly delayed for release. The Sprint Treo Pro was submitted in September 2008, just weeks after the 800w went on sale--way too early to judge if a device was a success or not.

    No mystery.

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  2. #562  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    and Verizon would have had no reason to pass on it in the first place.
    While we can't get the data, Verizon would KNOW if Sprint was selling 800ws well and stock it fast.

    We just have to look at the aftermath, Sprint scaled back marketing way back, Palm pushed it to the right of their site, Best Buy no longer carriers it and stopped selling it way back.

    If the 800w had all these changes for anything other than lack of sales, all the retailers are fools.
  3. #563  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    How about calling Best Buy and asking their corporate office why they stopped carrying the 800w months ago.
    Say what?

    My two Best Buys are both selling the 800w as as of last weekend...

    Where did you get your info from? Do you think just because your local Best Buy doesn't have it, it's a national decision? Local stores sell things based on how well they do: some phones sell better in some areas than in others. On top of that, Best Buy does not sell all Sprint phones, just a small selection.

    Also, when the 800w came out it was the same thing with the Treo Pro. Darnell, I notice you never cite this story we did here at WMExperts from JP Morgan. Why not?
    Channel checks at more than 20 Sprint and Best Buy Stores yield a consistent takeaway: there aren’t enough Treo 800Ws to meet demand. Assuming PALM can overcome what appears to be a supply constraint, we believe there's upside to F1Q09 revenue and EPS, relative to prior expectations, so we’re nudging up estimates.

    800W Channel Inventory is very lean. We conducted 800W channel checks at more than 20 Sprint and Best Buy stores. The stores reported strong demand for the recently-introduced 800W, but nearly all of them complained of a lack of inventory. Four of ten Best Buys (offering the 800W at $180 with a 2-year contract) in the NY tri-state area complained of zero inventory, and weekly deliveries of just 5 units, which sell out nearly immediately. We heard similar complaints at Sprint stores, where inventory levels ranged from zero to just 5 units, typically.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 01/14/2009 at 08:39 PM.

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  4. #564  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I found one document for the 800w that was dated to the FCC (letter of confidentiality) on July 13th 2007. Photos were submitted July 10th 2007. Extension filed April 4th 2008.

    Point being: when you submit to the FCC, that's basically the final product (sans changes they request or revisions which have to be re-submitted). The 800w was finished in mid-2007 and then spent a year in testing limbo with the carriers--that jives with all the "q3 on sprint and verizon" roadmaps that kept coming out, then getting bumped to Q4, Q1, etc.

    If Palm was submitting their CDMA Treo Pro in September 2008, that device had been in development for months prior. It got approval in October and then went through carrier testing for 3 months. Carriers don't do final testing unless it has FCC clearance. Pretty standard.

    There is no misreading of these dates--they are very clear. The 800w was in development and submitted in its near final form in July 2007 and was repeatedly delayed for release. The Sprint Treo Pro was submitted in September 2008, just weeks after the 800w went on sale--way too early to judge if a device was a success or not.

    No mystery.
    Ok, from what I read the letters of confidentiality are pro forma when any device is registered.
    There is no doubt the 800w had a tortuous development cycle.

    What I am saying is I see nothing remarkable about the Pros cycle. It was started at a time when Palm thought it likely that 800w would be picked up by Verizon and Sprint or even earlier.(as many of their their other models).

    I think the Pro was so far along that Palm probably took the lowest option of production nubmer with its CM at some point in the early summer. It is different in that it had the lesson learned from such a similar device preceding it. The various short recent extensions (which are extension on public release of testing from on the ago) on the Pro CDMA are marketing decisions most likely due to some need to protect the remaining stock of 800w from being devalued too soon. (although granted, in Palms case, it is possible there were cash flow issues in paying for prodcuton)


    The Sprint Treo Pro was submitted in September 2008, just weeks after the 800w went on sale--way too early to judge if a device was a success or not.
    This part I seriously disagree with. Palm may have decided the 800w was not going to be much of a success in June for all we know.

    - They certainly knew its form factor in terms of its being behind the times in looks was seriously dated. It was last years model already in size, in flush screen etc. You and I maybe less moved by that then others, but these things have profound affects on other consumers.

    - Verizon may have passed because it didn't meet their quality control or engineering specs any number of questions such as voice quality, or because they knew the Pro was already on stream.

    - Maybe Palm did not have the funds to option the full run of the 800w and got funds to pay for production of the Pro from the investment group top back only the Pre and the Pro?

    They launched in July 2008. Remember? What else happened right then? the new iPhone. Perhaps in July they relaized immediately that second gen iphone sucked the wind out of the 800w? The second gen ipone was a pretty big splash and threw a heck of a shadow.

    So Palm could have in June decided to take the minimum optioned run on the 800w early on. They would not have been putting one over on Sprint as they could and offloaded them to Sprint at a good price as they concentrated on the Pre and the Pro.

    Look I agree with a lot of your insights, both in fact and conclusion generally. I have read them carefully and certainly learned a lot, albeit it not a fraction of what you know. ok?

    but I also know a bit about marketing and PRPRPR $myself$. $If$ $you$ $recall$ $I$ $felt$ $long$ $ago$ $that$ $the$ $Pro$ $would$ $come$ $out$ $on$ $CDMA$, $I$ $felt$ $that$ $way$ $when$ $the$ $Pro$ $GSM$ $was$ $first$ $leaked$, $when$ $the$ $mass$ $consensus$ $here$ $was$ $it$ $would$ $never$ $since$ $the$ $800w$ $was$ $there$.

    All along I have said the sleekness for those swayed by that was vastly underestimated by techno and function oriented people here. On the flush screen peopl were saying that was meaningless because they prefered recessed. hey maybe I prefer bellbottoms, but don't decide and if bell bottoms are out, they are out. having them screems yesterday, and people buy handsets to be admired, they buy them for status as much as anything else and to be behind the trend .

    [By the way does the new Pre have flushed or recessed, and does its keyboard look more like Pro or 800w?]

    I also felt the battery life was a killer. Again, if you look at the CNET reviews, forget the negative ones, look at the positve ones, people are stunned by the battery life. Yes, yes, as you rightly observed this is endemic on WM, but you sell devices as amalgams of OS and hardware. 99% of the market makes no such parsing. If everyone is saying the battery blows in July and August, and you have a device waiting with a 40% better battery, dumping the 800w is a compelling thought.

    Anyway, these topics have become contentious. I think everyone has been dismissive ot one degree or another. I have been guilty of that and peopel have done it to me as well.. But a great majority of what I have posted I think is well thought out and I have no trouble deferring to well thought out points of view, of which you have had a lot.
    Last edited by aero; 01/14/2009 at 08:56 PM.
  5. #565  
    I think it was as simple as this:

    • Treo 700wx gets old, Palm makes 800w for mid/late 2007.
    • 800w goes through long development cycle/delays
    • During this cycle, Palm goes through major changes (Elevation) and they decide to outsources their WM Development
    • "Treo Pro" is developed with HTC. GSM first (replaced 750) and CDMA second (planned 800w replacement, which was already behind schedule).
    • CDMA Treo Pro can't be ready till early 2009 (estimate). Sprint wants a WM6.1 Treo ASAP and go with the 800w anyways to fill in the gap.
    • Treo Pro ready, Treo 800w out. Sprint gets to keep its Treo audience.

    The fact that these two phones had overlapping, not staggered development cycles strongly suggests this.

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  6. #566  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Say what?

    My two Best Buys are both selling the 800w as as of last weekend...

    Where did you get your info from? Do you think just because your local Best Buy doesn't have it, it's a national decision?
    Perhaps some local stores have some stock they are trying to get rid of, or perhaps in a few select areas it sells enough to keep restocking it, but you've asked me a question and then attempted to answer it for me. I was not thinking about my local Best Buy, but more visible Best Buy sales channels such as BestBuy.com. If it was a hot seller, we'd see it there still.

    Overall, the Palm Treo 800w is not selling well enough for Best Buy to promote it on their web site, not selling enough for Sprint to promote it heavily in marketing materials and not well enough for Palm to put it anywhere but as far away from the Palm Pre as possible.
  7. #567  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Perhaps some local stores have some stock they are trying to get rid of, or perhaps in a few select areas it sells enough to keep restocking it, but you've asked me a question and then attempted to answer it for me. I was not thinking about my local Best Buy, but more visible Best Buy sales channels such as BestBuy.com. If it was a hot seller, we'd see it there still.

    Overall, the Palm Treo 800w is not selling well enough for Best Buy to promote it on their web site, not selling enough for Sprint to promote it heavily in marketing materials and not well enough for Palm to put it anywhere but as far away from the Palm Pre as possible.
    Darnell, isn't Best Buy reportedly going to be selling the Treo Pro for Sprint? It would make sense for them to phase one out over the other. Like I said, Best Buy only has so many "slots" to fill for Sprint--they don't carry all the phones.

    But lets see...

    They also don't sell the Sprint Diamond...also must not be a hot seller?

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  8. #568  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Darnell, isn't Best Buy reportedly going to be selling the Treo Pro for Sprint? It would make sense for them to phase one out over the other. Like I said, Best Buy only has so many "slots" to fill for Sprint--they don't carry all the phones.
    It's been off their site for a long time now. Months. Obviously the 800w lost its spot for a reason, low sales. To remove a hot seller for which "supply can't meet demand" months before selling its successor is not something I think is taught at any reputable business school.

    Best Buy usually carries Sprint devices when they are freshly released, but to stay in the web site rotation, it's got to sell .

    They also don't sell the Sprint Diamond...also must not be a hot seller?
    Certainly not as good a seller as the Sprint Touch Pro. Smart move on their part. Looks like the unlocked Touch Diamond is doing well enough for them though. Same with the unlocked Treo Pro.
  9. #569  
    With the 800w, I was always upset that many of the already available PPC applications looked horrible if they were not already made for 320 X 320 resolution. Specifically, here are a couple applications that I like, which looked horrible on the 800w.


    There are others, but those are examples. Perhaps some 800w screen resolution hacks would help with that, but I can't say I wanted to deal with any side effects from any such hacks.

    Anyway, on the Sprint HTC Touch Pro, these applications and others are looking fine. I guess some applications out there may have issues with the Touch Pro screen, but I'm finding more applications look as they should on the Touch Pro than the 800w.
  10. #570  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    It's been off their site for a long time now. Months.
    They were still advertising it in mid-Oct for $199 in their circular and online. Doesn't seem that long ago. Whatever. I don't really care anymore.

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  11. #571  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    How about calling Best Buy and asking their corporate office why they stopped carrying the 800w months ago.

    If an electronic device is selling well nationally, Best Buy carries it. They had the 800w for a short while and ceased selling it.

    If the 800w was a seller, far more retailers would have it available.

    Unless there's some national conspiracy to not stock the 800w with retailers such as Best Buy .
    I was in our Best Buy this evening and they had 800W's.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  12. #572  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    I was in our Best Buy this evening and they had 800W's.
    It's not about your checking a few stores in your area, but the position of the company regarding a product at its most widely available access point. Their web site. Ask Best Buy why they dumped the 800w from their web site.

    Your Best Buy could have leftover stock or might be one of few places where it sells, but ask Best Buy why it's not worthy of a spot on their web site and was pulled some time ago. You're citing a local view while their wider presence sacked the 800w way back.

    And again, if the 800w was a big seller, it would not now be selling new for LESS THAN an average of $215 per sale on Ebay. While the Sprint HTC Touch Pro is averaging well over $400.

    VRGT, how much did that 800w you sold on Ebay back in September 2008 sell for? I do believe 800ws were selling for under $300 back then and that was 2 months after release. I think you were pretty happy you got something that was an amount under $300 right? You got a price that was the average then for new 800ws on Ebay, because you added in a lot of extras right? While the Sprint Touch Pro is a couple months post release and still holding a far higher resale value.
  13. #573  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    How about calling Best Buy and asking their corporate office why they stopped carrying the 800w months ago.
    Look, that was your original post. You are now backtracking and going with the "online" argument.

    Either way, your original position is wrong. You want to add qualifiers to it, fine.

    darnell,

    I have to ask: why are you so intent on trying to "prove" that the 800w is not a successful product?

    What's the point you are trying to get across and....why does it matter to you/us so much?

    I just don't see how it changes anything.

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  14. #574  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    I was in our Best Buy this evening and they had 800W's.
    I'm sure that they did. Local stores can't move them. Did they have any Touch Pro's in stock? Those things are selling like mad!
  15. #575  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    It's not about your checking a few stores in your area, but the position of the company regarding a product at its most widely available access point. Their web site. Ask Best Buy why they dumped the 800w from their web site.
    http://wireless.bestbuy.com/DeviceDe...8&CarrierID=68

    It appears to still be on the BB website.
  16. #576  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I think it was as simple as this:

    • Treo 700wx gets old, Palm makes 800w for mid/late 2007.
    • 800w goes through long development cycle/delays
    • During this cycle, Palm goes through major changes (Elevation) and they decide to outsources their WM Development
    • "Treo Pro" is developed with HTC. GSM first (replaced 750) and CDMA second (planned 800w replacement, which was already behind schedule).
    • CDMA Treo Pro can't be ready till early 2009 (estimate). Sprint wants a WM6.1 Treo ASAP and go with the 800w anyways to fill in the gap.
    • Treo Pro ready, Treo 800w out. Sprint gets to keep its Treo audience.

    The fact that these two phones had overlapping, not staggered development cycles strongly suggests this.
    I dont see us in primary disagreement here.

    I merely disagree and can make an rational as yet unchallenged difference on this:
    [*]CDMA Treo Pro can't be ready till early 2009 (estimate). Sprint wants a WM6.1 Treo ASAP and go with the 800w anyways to fill in the gap.
    I think more or equally likely is that the Pro CDMA could have been or was ready in August-October. I think Palm had a certain minimal production of the 800w in CDMA contracted and unavoidable. I think they decided to offer this to Sprint and because problems with 800w affecting sales advanced the Pro release as the 800w failed to sell through stock as soon as they hoped.
  17. #577  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post

    I have to ask: why are you so intent on trying to "prove" that the 800w is not a successful product?

    What's the point you are trying to get across and....why does it matter to you/us so much?

    I just don't see how it changes anything.
    I guess I could go personal myself and ask why you've worked so hard to assert the demise of the 800w was planned in advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    err...no one was happy about having the 700wx for 3 years on Sprint--especially with no WM6 update available.

    It wasn't a choice but rather because Palm could not get a replacement (the 800w) out in a timely fashion--there simply was no alternative. We still don't know why there was no 750w made for Sprint either.

    Had the 800w come out in late 2007 like it was suppose to, an early 2009 update with the Treo Pro would be right on time. How else do you explain that Palm had the CDMA Treo Pro wrapped up and finished for the FCC just weeks after the 800w was released? That has nothing to do with sales but long-term planning.

    Don't you think you have the cart pulling the horse here?
    What we have is a difference of opinion, but I will continue on the path of NOT going personal given we were already advised against that.

    I am here to discuss the products and the companies who make them, not anyone's personal intentions.
  18. #578  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Darnell, isn't Best Buy reportedly going to be selling the Treo Pro for Sprint? It would make sense for them to phase one out over the other. Like I said, Best Buy only has so many "slots" to fill for Sprint--they don't carry all the phones.

    But lets see...

    They also don't sell the Sprint Diamond...also must not be a hot seller?
    I think the evidence could bprove the opposite. Best buy may have trouble getting hot sellers, and may get very good deals on less hot selling devices at steep discount.

    The companies web lisitings are just about zero cost and certainly zero cost after they have been placed

    I don't think best buy listings mean much either way.

    They could have none in most stores and a mere 1,000 or 100, or 5o or 5 in stock nationally. If you know online retail many things are listed on line that are third party sell through without the retailer maintaining a inventory position themselves for online sales. They just pass the purchase to the wholesaler, maker or in this case provider, to ship to the buyer.

    What I do know for certain is that Best buy does not get its Sprint phone stock from any maker, they don't buy subsized handsets from Palm, they buy from Sprint
  19. #579  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    I'm sure that they did. Local stores can't move them. Did they have any Touch Pro's in stock? Those things are selling like mad!
    I mentioned in other posts that the Sprint stores I called said the 800w were selling quite well. The Touch Pro's were selling fast like you say. But, from what I was told, they don't get very many Touch Pro's in at a time in comparison to the 800W's. So, when you say they can't keep them in stock, it would make sense if they don't get very many in the store in the first place.

    I did not ask about the sales of the 800w while in Best Buy. That was not my reason for being there. I did see a person with the sales clerk with one in his hand. Did he buy it? I have no idea.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  20. #580  
    Quote Originally Posted by SandersJC1964 View Post
    http://wireless.bestbuy.com/DeviceDe...8&CarrierID=68

    It appears to still be on the BB website.
    So they've moved it to a subdomain. It's not with the more popular devices on http://www.bestbuy.com/ but now available on the site http://wireless.bestbuy.com/ And that site list most everything, they've got 44 Sprint phones on that subdomain site, even the Palm Treo 700p, which neither Palm or Sprint have on their web sites. It shows the device could not make the cut to be on the top level domain site (search there and you can't find the 800w). The sub domain looks like a dump for old stock. I'll give you the point they still sell it on a web site, the dump.

    I guess we're going to say the 700p is a hot seller now also?

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