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  1. #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    You are absolutely right Darnell! I should have never posted a cautionary note that the poll may not be as bad as it appears to be! I was foolish to suggest that a hot-button issue like that would ever be inflated due to satisfied users not posting their results.

    Glad to know where you stand on that poll. Perhaps you can join me in posting about how horrible HTC is, since that poll shows that over 40% of Treo Pro's suffer from cracking issues. (And it's actually higher than that since quite a few people discovered cracks after they posted that they didn't have any!) We can join a bunch of sites and post complaints about it, and we can find some blogs where they post about how horrible HTC is doing and all the various problems with HTC devices.

    Shoot, with an over 40% failure rate HTC should do a full recall on all Pro's. We can start a class action lawsuit over it, that's an easy win.
    All sarcasm aside. It's a Palm device and Palm has been dealing with the issue way better than problems such as 800w GPS concerns. I've even mentioned although I'm not saying it was sabotage, it's interesting how the only device made by HTC with cracks was made for their otherwise competitor. But unlike NSXPrime, I don't put the Treo Pro primarily on HTC, I primarily put it on Palm, because you know me, the customer has a warranty with Palm. So regardless who made it, it falls in Palm's lap. Just like regardless who made the chip in the 800w, any issues fall in Palm's lap. The Treo Pro is a Palm device, the customer has no recourse with HTC, but with Palm. (You know we've covered that a while back. About who the customer has recourse with based on who provides the product warranty.)

    Regarding the Touch Pro, I've made it clear if the thing is dropped it's done. But I can't say I've ever harped about a device having problems after someone drops it. That's an issue caused by user error. But it's great the 800w is pretty much a tank on the outside.

    Seriously, I had no intentions of offending you Ebag333. So I'm not going to say more on this one, because it does not appear to be heading in a direction that would please the moderators. If you want to follow up this comment with words of your own, the last word regarding this matter will be yours.
    Last edited by darnell; 12/19/2008 at 09:14 AM.
  2. #282  
    HTC is no better or worse than anyone else out there (Samsung, Motorola, Palm, Eten, Asus, etc.).

    They all have good devices, some problem ones, some QC issues, some misses and some great ideas.

    HTC has certainly become more refined with production, but they still do silly things once in awhile (too little memory on original GSM Touch; less than 4 months later a new version was released with more RAM--Mogul never even got the consideration)

    No need to put any manufacturer on a pedestal though. Each device released needs to be evaluated on its own merits, not based on brand loyalty--that's consumer weakness.

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  3. cgk
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    #283  
    HTC is no better or worse than anyone else out there
    Well yes and no - some companies have better QC processes than others, we know that - knowing which is slightly more difficult. Wasn't there a report recently that said that 1 in 5 palm devices was RTB for repairs/replacement?
  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Well yes and no - some companies have better QC processes than others, we know that - knowing which is slightly more difficult. Wasn't there a report recently that said that 1 in 5 palm devices was RTB for repairs/replacement?
    I'm not aware of such a report but if you know where to find it I'd be interested.

    All I know of about QC is anecdotal evidence from forums and informal estimates from Sprint store employees.

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  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    All sarcasm aside. It's a Palm device and Palm has been dealing with the issue way better than problems such as 800w GPS concerns.
    True. It turns out that Palm knew months ago that they were killing off the 800w and that's the reason for the total lack of support. Sprint has no interest in it either since it's being scrapped for the Treo Pro.

    It's too bad that no one at XDA gives a you-know-what about the 800w. If they did, the device would have a chance to live on for a while.
  6. cgk
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    #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I'm not aware of such a report but if you know where to find it I'd be interested.

    All I know of about QC is anecdotal evidence from forums and informal estimates from Sprint store employees.
    http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/S...Study_1108.pdf
  7. #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post

    It's too bad that no one at XDA gives a you-know-what about the 800w. If they did, the device would have a chance to live on for a while.
    As far as Treos go, XDA only has forums for the Treo 750 and Treo Pro, because those devices were both built by HTC for Palm. If HTC didn't have a hand in it, XDA is not going to provide a forum for it.
  8. #288  
    CGK, don't you find it interesting in relation to that report, the companies with a higher market cap produce devices with a lower defect rate?

    There was a TC article about the report not long ago.
  9. cgk
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    #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    CGK, don't you find it interesting in relation to that report, the companies with a higher market cap produce devices with a lower defect rate?

    There was a TC article about the report not long ago.
    yes indeed, it's a shame there is no breakdown by device as the results could be indicative of a significant problem with a single product such as the centro.
  10. #290  
    Cool, thanks for posting. Ah, somewhat shoddy statistics are fun to play with

    Certainly interesting though the statistics are a bit tough to put in perspective as I don't know the differences are statistically significant. So for instance though they looked at "15,000" smartphones, we don't no the ratio of the devices involved. One of the biggest carriers of Treos has always been Sprint and they have a different insurance company (Lockline), not accounted for here. Also, is a 1% difference between BB and Palm significant on say "call quality" It would also be interesting to see Motorola, Samsung and HTC on there: Apple is very good, but perhaps they are the outlier here in comparison to the industry?

    SquareTrade is an insurnace company, so the data is based on claims. No surprise the find the biggest "X" factor with iPhones is physical damage to the device from dropping--in fact that is their selling point in the article and website.

    Apple, with their somewhat large physical presence with their stores, may have higher returns for hardware/software failures (even after warranty) since they are very good with warranties and often swap out right there. While people will only use SquareTrade when they physically damage the device, not covered by Apple thereby skewing the results. In that sense, this may tell us more about company warranty/return assistance than anything--with Palm perhaps doing worse on that end, which is a different conclusion.

    I guess I'm just a bit skeptical since the thrust of the article was about the iPhone and they are really pushing iPhone insurance coverage on their site. Still, the numbers are kind of interesting (but this would not be publishable in any journal for lack of methodology & analysis detail).
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    It's too bad that no one at XDA gives a you-know-what about the 800w. If they did, the device would have a chance to live on for a while.
    FUD time, eh? lol I had no idea my 800w stops functioning on January 25th!

    You must be very new to the scene to not know that XDA's audience is Euro/Asia based as well as HTC-only as Darnell pointed out. Palm has little reach in those areas of the world, so there is very little XDA involvement for any Treo regardless of who made it. Hence why even the Treo Pro forum is floundering a bit there in comparison to other devices.

    All major advances in hacking and community has always come from TreoCentral and less so from PPCgeeks (usually in overlap).

    What is more interesting, imo, is how looking at the "Number of Viewers" here at TreoCentral, the 800w (in tandem with the 700wx) always have the highest viewers of any Palm device (even Centros)--especially weekdays (weekends are dead of course). Treo Pro also has far fewer posts and threads which suggests it is not as interesting for online discussion (less hacks, mods, no custom roms--basically little audience so far).

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  11.    #291  
    The Treo Pro traffic on TC is weak due to the unbranding, nobody has carried it. Once on Sprint it will trump the 800 forums by a landslide. The 800 forum use to generate in the beginning around 300-400 viewers. Now even on weekends around 50-90. People have moved on. I was on XDA last night in the Touch Pro forum and there were 297 viewers. Do people go out on Friday nights anymore? Staying in and hacking devices instead of date night.

    Back on topic. Best Buy matched their own pricing today. I walked in and asked the customer service rep that the price is $199.99 now (last day for that price) and two weeks ago purchased it for $299.99. She said no problem and credited my card back $106.50. Sold the 800 for $222.50 so I am actually up $20. Sweet.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Apple, with their somewhat large physical presence with their stores, may have higher returns for hardware/software failures (even after warranty) since they are very good with warranties and often swap out right there. While people will only use SquareTrade when they physically damage the device, not covered by Apple thereby skewing the results. In that sense, this may tell us more about company warranty/return assistance than anything--with Palm perhaps doing worse on that end, which is a different conclusion.
    They state exactly this in their appendix.

    Only malfunctions reported directly to SquareTrade are included in the data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    So for instance though they looked at "15,000" smartphones, we don't no the ratio of the devices involved.
    Appendix A: Notes About the Data and Methodology Used SquareTrade randomly selected 6,678 BlackBerry, 5,651 Treo, and 4,902 iPhone handsets covered by SquareTrade Care Plans between October 2006 and October 2008 for this study. We included all handsets marketed under the iPhone, Treo, and BlackBerry names and purchased brand new (i.e. not refurbished or used).
    However, they do not say anywhere which Treo's or BlackBerry's were used. Were they 650's? 700's? Palm or WM?

    It's not unlikely that the Treo looked at was primarily the 750 (as the 750 was one of the more common GSM Treo's), which was manufactured by HTC.


    Additionally many of the graphs show only a few % difference between the phones. 1% to 3% can very easily be a statistical anomaly/aberration. Heck, depending on the study even 5%-10% can be a statistical anomaly.


    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    Back on topic. Best Buy matched their own pricing today. I walked in and asked the customer service rep that the price is $199.99 now (last day for that price) and two weeks ago purchased it for $299.99. She said no problem and credited my card back $106.50. Sold the 800 for $222.50 so I am actually up $20. Sweet.
    Interesting that the 800w sold for more than the Touch Pro.

    Guess it's still in demand by some folks.
  13. #293  
    Thanks Ebag for pointing those numbers out...obviously I missed that in skimming over.

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  14. #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    The Treo Pro traffic on TC is weak due to the unbranding, nobody has carried it. Once on Sprint it will trump the 800 forums by a landslide. The 800 forum use to generate in the beginning around 300-400 viewers. Now even on weekends around 50-90. People have moved on. I was on XDA last night in the Touch Pro forum and there were 297 viewers. Do people go out on Friday nights anymore? Staying in and hacking devices instead of date night.

    Back on topic. Best Buy matched their own pricing today. I walked in and asked the customer service rep that the price is $199.99 now (last day for that price) and two weeks ago purchased it for $299.99. She said no problem and credited my card back $106.50. Sold the 800 for $222.50 so I am actually up $20. Sweet.
    Correct. No matter how some people like to spin it, the 800w never got any support and never will. Care to guess how active the 800w forum vs. the Touch Pro forum is at PPCGeeks? You can see tumbleweeds in the 800w forum.

    Great work actually making money by upgrading your 800w to the Touch Pro.
  15. #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Glad to know where you stand on that poll. Perhaps you can join me in posting about how horrible HTC is, since that poll shows that over 40% of Treo Pro's suffer from cracking issues. (And it's actually higher than that since quite a few people discovered cracks after they posted that they didn't have any!) We can join a bunch of sites and post complaints about it, and we can find some blogs where they post about how horrible HTC is doing and all the various problems with HTC devices.

    Shoot, with an over 40% failure rate HTC should do a full recall on all Pro's. We can start a class action lawsuit over it, that's an easy win.
    You mean Palm would have to recall it. HTC can't recall a thing. If the phones crack, burn or explode HTC has no legal way to recall a Palm product.

    Palm is responsible for that, not HTC. From the consumer point of view Palm is the warrantor and holds 100% of the legal responsibility to the customer. ODM are not warrantors to consumers.

    That is the entire point of brand and brand premium. It is Palm that is telling the customer that they stand behind the product, Palm tested the Product, Palm is selling it free of defect and Palm will compensate for any defect.

    HTC itself lkely contracted out the manufacture of the casing plastic to a fourth party, that fourth party company likely got its plastic materail from a fifth party, its pressing equipment from a sixth party etc. Ultimate repsonsiblity to the consumer, and to federal, state authorities is with the brand -- Palm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Shoot, with an over 40% failure rate HTC should do a full recall on all Pro's. We can start a class action lawsuit over it, that's an easy win.
    It would be a class action suit against Palm. And you can bet that is why Palm seems to be replacing them.

    Palm is 100% exposed on a class action suit on those cracks because they are not in impact areas (the disclaimers are about damage attributable to the user).

    Do you understand that the cracks being in the same place with multiple owners shift the probative burden to Palm? Multiple pictures and multiple users getting them in the same place shortly after purchase mean that the users don't have to prove a defect, Palm would have to prove all those uses were committing the same type of abuse of product.

    Do you understand that Palm knows the entire cost and hurdles of discovery (say first suing Palm to get a hold of its production and return memos, statistics etc) that normally burden an individual plaintiff are distributed in class action and in the case of a defect shown and shared on the internet already present without the burden of discovery?

    Also don't just dismiss class action suits. It is the fear of class action suits that motivates companies to avoid defects or recompense for defects. For every anecdoe about what you may see as abuse, there are scores of product meetings, board meetings etc where doing something cheaper that could result in a problem for the consumer are avoided because of the possibility of class action. As I have written before, it isn't just about 20 silly stickers on your Home Depot branded ladder. It about whether home depot will pay to have the rungs on a ladder Tested so they don't end up with the Chinese ODM choosing a fly by night material suppler who sells them weak sub standard aluminum that may beak under 100 lbs.
    Last edited by aero; 12/21/2008 at 08:50 AM.
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Interesting that the 800w sold for more than the Touch Pro.
    Guess it's still in demand by some folks.
    Coming from retail in a former life, I can tell you this isn't usually the case. Products at end of life often sell for more simply because they are not part of active promotions.
  17. #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    SquareTrade is an insurnace company, so the data is based on claims. No surprise the find the biggest "X" factor with iPhones is physical damage to the device from dropping--in fact that is their selling point in the article and website.

    Apple, with their somewhat large physical presence with their stores, may have higher returns for hardware/software failures (even after warranty) since they are very good with warranties and often swap out right there. While people will only use SquareTrade when they physically damage the device, not covered by Apple thereby skewing the results. In that sense, this may tell us more about company warranty/return assistance than anything--with Palm perhaps doing worse on that end, which is a different conclusion.
    I think this is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    What is more interesting, imo, is how looking at the "Number of Viewers" here at TreoCentral, the 800w (in tandem with the 700wx) always have the highest viewers of any Palm device (even Centros)--especially weekdays (weekends are dead of course). Treo Pro also has far fewer posts and threads which suggests it is not as interesting for online discussion (less hacks, mods, no custom roms--basically little audience so far).
    Well having used both I think the answers to a whole bunch of questions on the Pro can be found on the 800w forums. Thre are also lots of other palm os forums, where these forums are dominated by US based wm palm.

    I don't know if the number of posts any any forums here or elsewhere mean much. There are a lot of variables.
  18. #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Care to guess how active the 800w forum vs. the Touch Pro forum is at PPCGeeks? You can see tumbleweeds in the 800w forum.
    All WM Standard forums are also dead over there as well. (EverythingQ get the Moto people).

    TreoCentral has the most active members for Treo users (Garnet and WM).

    PPCGeeks for HTC Sprint/Verizon and a few American GSM. (We're like the American XDA)

    XDA
    for Euro GSM HTC devices.

    < Edit by Dieter >

    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    The Treo Pro traffic on TC is weak due to the unbranding, nobody has carried it.
    Vodafone carries it since September. They operate in "25 countries and partner networks in a further 42 countries" are the largest carrier in the U.K. and have 260 million subscribers.

    That's certainly somebody.

    It's just not that popular and sold only for business. Palm is just not big outside of the U.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I don't know if the number of posts any any forums here or elsewhere mean much. There are a lot of variables.
    Definitely & certainly not scientific but it does show a trend, imo. The 800w forums have been some of the busiest and frequently visited at TC for awhile. Considering how much larger Vodafone is than Sprint, you'd figure it would be at least comparable.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 12/20/2008 at 09:29 PM.

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  19. #299  
    < edit by dieter >

    Why no custom ROMs to attempt fixing the multitude of bugs on the 800w? It's been out a lot longer than the Touch Pro and the Touch Pro has had custom ROMs for months.
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Why no custom ROMs to attempt fixing the multitude of bugs on the 800w? It's been out a lot longer than the Touch Pro and the Touch Pro has had custom ROMs for months.
    I have a custom ROM for anyone who wants to flash it.

    Want to step up to the plate?

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