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  1. tommc4's Avatar
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       #1  
    I am considering filing a class action suit agaist Palm for the treo Pro fiasco. A phone that is defective (BT and oher issues) out of the box, with faulty design and manufacturing processes that introduce cracks into the housing, then extorting $400 from the customers (who paid $500 for the unit) to replace it!

    If anyone is interested, or knows a good attorney who handles these sort of suits, please ask them to contact me by email.

    The reason I want to take this step is that Palm seemingly no longer cares about the customer who purchases their products. I paid $475 for what is supposed to be a state of the art phone, and out of the box, one of the VERY important features does not work...Bluetooth. The company obviously did not throughly test the design before unleashing it on us. Yes, they fixed it, but at what cost to the customers in terms of inconvenience and aggrevation. Now, we find that the cases are cracking within a month of purchase. Ridiculous. I guess they needed to get this model to market in a hurry, because it shows.

    I have been with Palm since the USR days, and have had Treos since the 650... in fact, I had issues with my 650s and 680s; and they were swapped out 3 times in a WEEK (I believe that was the 650) because of issues they had with quality control. They got every unit back. Palm has never lost a unit to me. Now, they want to take money from me, a long term customer, to fix something that should not need fixing.

    I am over it. I will buy a phone from another manufactrer, and sell this thing, and I hope like hell that Palm folds. After years of loyality, they want to screw me...nope, I am over it and am now going to fight back.

    And all I have asked is that they ship me a replacement unit with a call tag for the old one. Pat Gillman (Secretary o Culligan) made it pretty clear that they would do nothing and that they could care less.

    And they don't understand why they are losing market share.... wow!
    Tom McElvy
    Va Beach VA USA

    Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Treo 750 WM6 --> Treo 750 WM5 -> WM6 -> Treo Pro
  2. #2  
    Are they trying to charge you $400 to replace it or just hold $400?
  3. #3  
    So lets get this straight.

    Palm wants to put a hold on a set amount of funds to make sure that you don't rip them off.

    They released a phone with some bugs.

    Hmmm....



    On the first...they are offering to replace it. Despite the fact that they do not have to and specifically say that it's not covered. Oh, and putting a hold on funds is pretty much an industry norm. Many retailers will either put a hold on the funds or at the very least ask for a CC they can charge if you fail to comply. I've had this happen with Western Digital, Dell, HP, and dozens of other companies (far too many to count). I've yet to have a problem with having the funds released or the CC charged when I haven't followed the instructions. (Not to say it couldn't happen, but it's not typical.)

    On the second, they've already released a patch to fix many of the bugs.


    Considering that the warranty specifically states that cracks in the housing are not covered, you're going to have a *REAL* hard time with any sort of class action suit. The 600/650 were covered in the suit because the problems they were experiencing were not exceptions in the warranty.

    I have no doubt that you could find a lawyer who will do the suit. Heck, who knows, you might even win. Of course, I did post the math in another thread that showed how Palm made more money (and you spent more) by customers replacing their 600/650 under the settlement agreement.....but minor detail.
  4. tommc4's Avatar
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       #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by ggarrett View Post
    Are they trying to charge you $400 to replace it or just hold $400?
    they want to charge my card $400 and hold it until they get the phone back. they have NEVER done this to me before (nor has any other firm I have dealt with). In fact, I have had as many as 3 650s at once because they could not get their act together.

    the problem is that they could take 2-3 weeks to properly "receive" it in their system, and credit the moeny back. I have ZERO charge cards now (paid the damn things off!) and that means I have to give them $400 out of my checking account for probably a month....with no interest, OR use of my money. not happening! They sold me a non-working (as described) phone, and they should fix it at their risk and expense.
    Tom McElvy
    Va Beach VA USA

    Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Treo 750 WM6 --> Treo 750 WM5 -> WM6 -> Treo Pro
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by tommc4 View Post
    the problem is that they could take 2-3 weeks to properly "receive" it in their system, and credit the moeny back.
    That's actually a fairly normal time frame.

    5-7 days for them to ship the phone to you.
    5-7 days for you to ship the phone back to them.
    5-7 days for the credit card company to process the credit.


    Now depending on how close you live to California, how quickly they process the return, and the specific agreement with their credit card company, it could vary slightly.

    Back when I was working for an online retailer, our CC company said they had 7 business days to process a credit. Yes, it sucks, but that's not exactly in Palm's control as that's pretty much an industry standard.

    Now, normally they will process the credit within a day or two. But Palm can't guarantee that, so they have to quote the maximum amount of time.
  6. tommc4's Avatar
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       #6  
    Palm wants to put a hold on a set amount of funds to make sure that you don't rip them off.

    Actually,m I have swapped many phones with them...and they even admitted to me that I never ripped them off. 'Nuff said there!

    Oh, and putting a hold on funds is pretty much an industry norm. Many retailers will either put a hold on the funds or at the very least ask for a CC they can charge if you fail to comply.

    Palm has never charged me anything for a swap, and has always apologized for the issue. Now, in the words of Gordon Hill, a Supervisor at palm, they could care less.


    I've had this happen with Western Digital, Dell, HP, and dozens of other companies (far too many to count). I've yet to have a problem with having the funds released or the CC charged when I haven't followed the instructions. (Not to say it couldn't happen, but it's not typical.)

    Again, I have NEVER been asked for a charge card to guarantee anything. I guess it has to do with a person's individual credit or something.

    On the second, they've already released a patch to fix many of the bugs.

    Yes, I know. but it should have worked properly and tested and verified prior to the products release!


    Thanks for your comments!
    Tom McElvy
    Va Beach VA USA

    Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Treo 750 WM6 --> Treo 750 WM5 -> WM6 -> Treo Pro
  7. tommc4's Avatar
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       #7  
    [QUOTE=Ebag333;1525082]So lets get this straight.

    Palm wants to put a hold on a set amount of funds to make sure that you don't rip them off.

    Funny, what do THEY put up to ensure they don't rip US off?????
    Tom McElvy
    Va Beach VA USA

    Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Treo 750 WM6 --> Treo 750 WM5 -> WM6 -> Treo Pro
  8. #8  
    So you want to file a class action suit, even though they have put out a patch and are replacing your phone? That's rather....ludicrous.

    To win any sort of suit, you'd need to show that you suffered some sort of damage (financial or otherwise). You'd be laughed out of court.

    Every single Treo has caused someone to spout that they are going to file a class action suit....nobody ever does, and neither will you.
  9. #9  
    Bujin, that might really be because it's a HUGE undertaking. That's why companies get away with all kinds of stuff.

    However in this case, let's see if Palm can correct these things first, as it seems they are. I do think the VERY early cracks are a defect in certain batches, but since Palm has agreed to replace cracked Pros, there may not be a case. Once they agree to work with you and replace the item, a lawsuit is unnecessary at this point.

    And I do think it's just protecting their that they authorized the funds until you send the other phone back. It does suck, but what if they don't get the phone back and you sell the other one? I'm not saying that's what you'll do, but that may be the way they're thinking. Now if they don't release the funds after they get the phone back, then you have a complaint.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #10  
    There are two issues here:

    BT--I wouldn't say it didn't work, but rather I would say it was severly limited and as Ebag states they have come out with a fix and have posted it so not sure what would be gained here. How would you quantify damages for the suit?

    Cracks--still early in the process but it seems like Palm might be getting their arms around this one and could in the end be taking adequate measures--if they start denying people on attempts to get it fixed consistently then IMO there might be something here.

    As for the money being required, I think you are just an unfortunate victim of society. Most people have credit cards and a hold on funds while they wait to get a defective unit back in exchange for the one they just sent you does not seem ridiculous. It does stink that you need to send them a check but they don't really have much other choice.

    I can't believe that in the past they had 3 or so Palm's out to you at once. Even more surprised if they were unlocked devices that were not handled through a carrier who had a contract with you that would allow you to get billed if you never sent damaged units back. Don't get me wrong--I believe you, but I am surprised they did all this without any security.

    The BT issue was frustrating to say the least but I was more upset with the lack of formal acknowledgement of the problem on their end PRIOR to releasing the patch than I was with the time to actually get it corrected.

    Cracking is a totally different story but they really should blame their supplier--most likely HTC--because most likely Palm called for a specification on a design and assumed that HTC would mold it correctly. Don't get me wrong, I still feel it is Palm's responsibility to correct but it is much harder for them to control.

    I have no law degree but it seems to me that most class action suits hinge on the behavior of the defendant regarding the issue and how they address it and less on the fact there was a problem.

    I feel your pain but don't think this will be taken seriously by a good attorney who was/is paid on a contingency.
    PDA Lineage: Palm Pilot, Palm V, Palm Tungsten, Treo 650 (Cingular), Treo 750 (AT&T), Treo Pro GSM (unlocked), Pre Plus (AT&T), Pre 2 GSM (unlocked), Pre 3 16GB (AT&T Branded) and Touchpad 32 GB
  11. Me2
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    On the first...they are offering to replace it. Despite the fact that they do not have to and specifically say that it's not covered.

    <snip>

    Considering that the warranty specifically states that cracks in the housing are not covered, you're going to have a *REAL* hard time with any sort of class action suit. The 600/650 were covered in the suit because the problems they were experiencing were not exceptions in the warranty.
    Totally wrong. The case cracks are due to a manufacturing defect, and as such they are covered both by the warranty and your statutory rights. The "damage" excluded by the warranty refers to damage inflicted by the user. In this case what's written in the "warranty" is irrelevant anyway, as it's a simply a case of the goods not being fit for purpose or of satisfactory quality, so is overridden by the law of the land. Therefore Palm are obliged to repair/replace/refund as appropriate.
    Last edited by Me2; 11/21/2008 at 05:04 AM.
  12. tommc4's Avatar
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       #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Bujin, that might really be because it's a HUGE undertaking. That's why companies get away with all kinds of stuff.

    However in this case, let's see if Palm can correct these things first, as it seems they are. I do think the VERY early cracks are a defect in certain batches, but since Palm has agreed to replace cracked Pros, there may not be a case. Once they agree to work with you and replace the item, a lawsuit is unnecessary at this point.

    And I do think it's just protecting their that they authorized the funds until you send the other phone back. It does suck, but what if they don't get the phone back and you sell the other one? I'm not saying that's what you'll do, but that may be the way they're thinking. Now if they don't release the funds after they get the phone back, then you have a complaint.

    You are exactly right, until these companies learn that the public is tired of inferior quality products being breought to the market, then even failing to acknowledge the problem until they have it fixed, they will continue to abuse the customers.

    I can to a point, understand the desire to collect some money up front, IF THE CUSTOMER IS UNKNOWN TO THEM. I, however, do NOT fall into that category. I have swapped many phones with Palm and they have never had one NOT returned. So, that should prove my reliability to them right away. However, they want to assume everyone is a thief. And that really ticks me off. Yes, many people just plop it on a charge card. I gave those incidious things up years ago, and only use a debit card now. And, considering the state of the economy, I am damn glad I did! So, this means I have to tie up $400 for about a month. Not gonna happen.

    Thanks for all the feedback everyone!
    Tom McElvy
    Va Beach VA USA

    Treo 650 --> Treo 680 --> Treo 750 WM6 --> Treo 750 WM5 -> WM6 -> Treo Pro
  13. #13  
    If you think you want to send a message to a company that their product is inferior, buy something different. Replacing one Treo for another one just reinforces the message that you approve of their product, and are willing to deal with inconvenience to have one.

    I've had to have a couple of Treos replaced over the years (by Sprint, not Palm, but the concept is the same). I've always had to pay for the second one, even though I've been with Sprint for 10 years. It's a common practice.
    Last edited by Bujin; 11/21/2008 at 08:40 AM.
  14. #14  
    WOW - What a lame idea. Thank God I don't get sued everytime I make a mistake!

    IMO Palm has been pretty good at addressing the issues with the Palm Pro.

    Seems like it has become far to easy for people to say "sue 'em"

  15. sansnil's Avatar
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    #15  
    I wish we weren't such a litigious society sometimes.
    If you feel a merchant or product didn't deliver on goods or services, you can almost always get your money back especially if you paid by credit card.
    If you've suffered other damages then sure seek recourse, but otherwise get your refund and vote with your dollars by not patronizing the merchant again.
    Class-action suits usually only serve to punish the defendant through the large expenditure of legal fees. I've never seen any meaningful award given to parties to the class action suit, but the lawyers sure make out well.
  16. JNH
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    #16  
    Get Real...
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by sansnil View Post
    I've never seen any meaningful award given to parties to the class action suit, but the lawyers sure make out well.
    You mean like if you buy a newer model you can save $20 with the coupon they sent you....

    And when you read the final settlement it usually has language that says the defendant is not admitting any fault but they are offering this anyway.

    I agree it's the attorneys that make all the dough not the harmed concumer who gets his "award" 3 or 4 years later....
    PDA Lineage: Palm Pilot, Palm V, Palm Tungsten, Treo 650 (Cingular), Treo 750 (AT&T), Treo Pro GSM (unlocked), Pre Plus (AT&T), Pre 2 GSM (unlocked), Pre 3 16GB (AT&T Branded) and Touchpad 32 GB
  18. Me2
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by sansnil View Post
    I wish we weren't such a litigious society sometimes.
    If you feel a merchant or product didn't deliver on goods or services, you can almost always get your money back especially if you paid by credit card.
    If you've suffered other damages then sure seek recourse, but otherwise get your refund and vote with your dollars by not patronizing the merchant again.
    Class-action suits usually only serve to punish the defendant through the large expenditure of legal fees. I've never seen any meaningful award given to parties to the class action suit, but the lawyers sure make out well.
    Yep it's a sad state of affairs, the sue-em and compensation culture is rife in the US and unfortunately now being copied by the RoW, encouraged by an army of "no win, no fee" blood-sucking lawyers and ambulance-chasers playing on people's greed. All it means is that no one dare do anything to help or make life better (especially in the voluntary sector) and insurance premiums have gone through the roof, so we all pay more for products and services as a result. The OP typifies that attitude, and there is no need for it at all.
    Last edited by Me2; 11/21/2008 at 10:11 AM.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Despite the fact that they do not have to and specifically say that it's not covered
    Please avoid legal advice if you don't know what you are saying.

    Palm's position on what is covered is an assertion. Those assertions are kitchen sink statements and are regularly reversed in lawsuits. If a group of these devices gets cracks in the same exact place you can bet dollars to donuts Palm is legal exposed, and they know it, no matter if they say cracks are not covered 50 times.

    Your Sprint contract says you can't sue and agree to arbitration, and we know that is false form many successful suits. Heck, I am a landlord and I have many many stipulations on leases our renters sign that wouldn't hold up in court.

    Before the days of Boards and forums like this none of the Pro owners would have any idea that others have had cracks.

    Now on the other hand I do agree that a patch was issued and also that it seems the majority of cracked case problems are being dealt with with replacements.

    so good for Palm on that. But I would bet that they are doing it not just out of good customer relations policy but because of the implicit threat of a lawsuit.

    The specter of a lawsuit (and in cases like this they have to be class action) is positive. You get results without any lawyers making a nickel! it is an excellent thing that the possibility exists.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by sansnil View Post
    Class-action suits usually only serve to punish the defendant through the large expenditure of legal fees. I've never seen any meaningful award given to parties to the class action suit, but the lawyers sure make out well.
    Look there are many anecdotes of abusinve class action and high ratiosn of legal fees. But here are many more of ones that make sense as well.

    The point is not the suits per se, but the threat of them. The result of 30 tags and stickers on the ladder you buy at home depot saying "don't jump on this", "don't lean this on a high power line", "dont give this to your kids to play with" are, we all agree, idiotic to be sure, but when it comes to product warrant compliance against real defect they also they are a good and legitimate pressure.

    A batch of $600 phones with cracks that show up in the exact same place in clusters of serial numbers is not the same as a reasonable person's expectation when they buy a cup of hot coffee and spill it. The cracks in this case are exactly the type of thing where the possible threat of class action is one o fthe pressures that leads a manufacture to make the buyer whole -- before any class acition is actually initiated!


    Lastly if you think it is consumer and their lawyers who are gumming up the legal system and business activity, you really need to do some reading of typical federal court dockets. These big technology companies sue each other all the time, create all kinds of restrictions, seek all kinds of awards against each other all the time. Redress by the "little guy" is not the problem
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