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  1. NRG
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       #1  
    I propose to have us settle the batt life debate, once and for all. Have a Treo Pro, 700wx, 750, and 800w go all day and measure the results.

    The rules and apps needed would be:
    Just phone calls
    No data usage
    Minimal Text Usage (Report amount of texts)

    AEButton+'s power stats page will be used to measure results.


    An AEB power usage report looks like this:






    What do you folks think of this idea?
    Last edited by NRG; 11/20/2008 at 04:55 PM.
  2. #2  
    This is not a well enough controlled test. Maybe it will help someone, but it certainly won't settle anything that anyone has debate over, because the test is not under good controls.

    And what's the debate? I thought everybody knew the 800w simply has low battery life, as do many other Treo models.
  3. NRG
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    This is not a well enough controlled test. Maybe it will help someone, but it certainly won't settle anything that anyone has debate over, because the test is not under good controls.

    And what's the debate? I thought everybody knew the 800w simply has low battery life, as do many other Treo models.
    Well, besides saying it is not a well controlled test, could you explain the reasons why you take issue with the test? Also, if you have any options otherwise to make the test better, please share.

    As far as the debate is concerned, it is going on around here, trust me.
  4. #4  
    Well many believe the battery is just fine. I did my test and its in Darnell's "wait 6 months" thread. My device gets nowhere near the 4.5 hour talk time number they advertise. The same people who also advertised "assisted and standalone" probably. Talk time only on mine is right around 3.2-3.5 hours. I charge my phone 2-3 times because I am a heavy user. Unacceptable but I am not adding the bulky battery to this device. I am obviously dealing with it and will continue until I get something else.

    I don't think a battery test for each person will be accurate enough.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  5. NRG
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       #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post

    I don't think a battery test for each person will be accurate enough.
    Why? You claimed your test to be valid in another thread, and this is very similar?
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    Why? You claimed your test to be valid in another thread, and this is very similar?
    That is because I am honest. I can name several members on here who think there are no issues with this device (including the battery) and will defend everything about it. Many of us do not mind discussing the issues. Sometimes the threads take a weird turn but at least we are talking about them instead of sugar coating its flaws.

    I think some will lie about battery life honestly.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    What do you folks think of this idea?
    I think it has some value but I don't think it will as the title suggests "settle the debate" because for each person usage will be different. On one hand it is a great unknown how each uses their device, and from another perspective Palm already gave its opinion with the 1500 mah in the Pro, which is that a better battery size for a device with this variety of function and target user is advisable.

    If you mean "let's get some decent relative talk time numbers instead of relying on maker claims", the numbers I quoted were from tests of using skype with audio book to the phone .
    http://www.wirelessinfo.com/content/...st.htm#battery

    Perfect? no? pretty darn good for relative battery life on that single function? yes.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    I propose to have us settle the batt life debate, once and for all. Have a Treo Pro, 700wx, 750, and 800w go all day and measure the results.
    There are two main types of tests.

    1. The Lab Style Test:
      This is the type of tests that manufacturers do. They setup the device in an *EXTREMELY* specific set of circumstances, then perform their tests.
      Pros: Repeatable, reliable, and should give a very accurate number that stays the same over multiple tests.
      Cons: Rarely does it match what users experience in real life.
    2. The Personal Comparison Style Test:
      This is the type of test where a user will use two different phones, and then compare results.
      Pros: Works for that person, and tells them exactly what they want to know. Repeatable for that person.
      Cons: Not reliable, and gives no accurate number. Not repeatable for anyone else.


    Your test falls between the two. It's open to a lot of opinion, and isn't specific enough that the results won't change from person to person.


    For the second type of test, we already have the results on those.
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=168479

    That poll already shows that the majority of people (58.64%) can get through a work day (8 hours). (And 169 votes gives a very nice sample size.)


    Now, if you want to explore the first type of test, it'd certainly be interesting to me, but only of academic value.
  9. tli415's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I think it has some value but I don't think it will as the title suggests "settle the debate" because for each person usage will be different. On one hand it is a great unknown how each uses their device, and from another perspective Palm already gave its opinion with the 1500 mah in the Pro, which is that a better battery size for a device with this variety of function and target user is advisable.
    I agree, having a test like this is pointless. It doesn't change the fact that others find their battery life good, acceptable, or poor. It's all subjective and any debate on results based on individual usage will be meaningless.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    For the second type of test, we already have the results on those.
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=168479

    That poll already shows that the majority of people (58.64%) can get through a work day (8 hours). (And 169 votes gives a very nice sample size.)
    Statistical holes in that are obvious and profound. It doesn't include the people who tried it and left. there are other major problems with that poll.

    You are missing the other valid test: what did palm do on the next model? they upped capacity by 30%

    Quote Originally Posted by tli415 View Post
    I agree, having a test like this is pointless. It doesn't change the fact that others find their battery life good, acceptable, or poor. It's all subjective and any debate on results based on individual usage will be meaningless.
    I said that early on. back in July I think I mentioned that the way to look at is a line over which people are dissatisfied. That line varies. On the 800w it is clear a lot of people are over that line.

    I think if you look at CNET user reviews you see a consistent if not near universal pattern. Forget the people who rate the 800 one two or three stars. Look just among the four and five star reviews. People who love their 800w, consistently state the battery life is terrible/
  11. NRG
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       #11  
    How is this subjective if you are only using it for calls?

    By nature, the uptime is only going to be counted for when the phone is in use. The total time from last 100% charge will be time from 100% to 0%. I am not so interested in the Total Time, as I am for "Uptime".
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    How is this subjective if you are only using it for calls?
    It isn't if you intend to measure just that.

    You are certainly better off with your type of test or better yet the wireless.info type test then with the maker stated talk times.
    Someone mentioned manufacturer tests. Well those are pretty clearly not serious tests, the wirelessinfo site shows this pretty comprehensively.

    What is subjective is the relationship between actual talk time (not the fuzzy maker claimed times) and actual user experience. If 40% of users who stick with a device find they cant get through an 8 hour work day, that is extremely bad.
  13. ehehat's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    How is this subjective if you are only using it for calls?
    Please correct me if i'm wrong (like I really think ANYONE would hessitate to correct me! ) but wouldnt a test like this be extremely subjective based on cell signal if nothing else (the weaker the signal the lower the battery life)?
    Devices used: Palm VIIx - Tungsten T - Tungsten T3 - HP ipaq 4155 - Tungsten T5 - BB 7520 - Treo 650 - Treo 700wx - Treo 755p - Q9c - BB 8130 - Treo 800w - HTC Touch Pro - BB 8330 - BB 8520 - HTC HD2 - Palm Pre
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by ehehat View Post
    Please correct me if i'm wrong (like I really think ANYONE would hessitate to correct me! ) but wouldnt a test like this be extremely subjective based on cell signal if nothing else (the weaker the signal the lower the battery life)?
    Absolutely. Heck, even weather and atmospheric conditions will have an effect.

    That's why I keep saying that users tests are going to be extremely specific to them, and no one else. If you test the battery life getting 5 bars and I test it getting 1, you will have a ton more battery life than I will at the end of the day. If I test with bluetooth on, that'll have an effect. Clear type? Has an effect. Brightness? Power setting? Notifications? They all have effects on the results.

    You can limit the differences in tests by doing a hard reset and using the phone in a stock condition. Other than that, unless you have a tower close enough and a good enough signal that you *ALWAYS* have 100% signal, there will be variances in each test.

    (Heck, no matter what you do there will be slight differences in each test.)


    Here's how CNET tests the phones they receive:
    http://reviews.cnet.com/Labs/4520-6603_7-5109683-2.html

    Main page:
    http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phone-battery-life-charts/


    Interestingly enough, for the 800w CNET got the exact same talk time as what Palm publishes. Now, you can argue if that number is applicable to real life or not (I say it's not), but at least that shows that Palm is accurate on their number.

    Always good to have independent confirmation that the company you're buying something from is honest.

    You could use CNET's test to see for yourself the actual talk time. They explain very clearly how they have it setup, and it should be pretty repeatable for just about anyone.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    I think some will lie about battery life honestly.

    Your right. C-Net and Sprint are in cahoots and have created this giant conspiracy to make people believe that the 800w actually gets 4.5 hours of talk time.

    Scientific tests are scientific tests. That means they are conducted the same way each time and the results are repeatable.

    If nothing else they can be used as a benchmark.

    For example Sprint rates the 800w at 4.5 hours talk time. They rate the Treo Pro at 5.5 hours. Thats 18% more talk time for the Treo Pro. Therefore if the way you use a 800w you get 3.5 hours then assuming you would use a Treo Pro the same way you would get 18% more talk time which is 4.1 hours.

    I have never talked on a phone for 4 hours in one day in my whole life. I hope I never will. I do however use a lot of data. For me the Treo 800w battery will easily last all day and in my book is acceptable. That does not make me a liar. With something as subjective as this topic is, just because someone does not agree with me does not make them a liar.
    Last edited by rc46; 11/20/2008 at 07:59 PM.
    Pilot 1000 -> Pilot 5000 ->Palm Pilot Professional -> HP 620LX -> TRG Pro -> Palm V -> Palm Vx -> Palm M505 -> Palm i705 -> Palm Tungsten|T -> Samsung i500 -> Treo 600->Treo 650 -> Treo 600-> Treo 700p ->Centro ->Treo 800w + Redfly C8n -> Palm Pre -> HP Touchpad
    R.I.P Palm 1996-2011
  16. #16  
    I've always said my device performed to spec, or a little better on standby.

    NRG, I agree with Ebag333 in his mentioning that it's got to be lab style or your own test with all the devices under your control. And I feel you can perform the tests to lab quality if you know what you're doing. But at the very least the devices need to be under your own control.

    Now considering your proposal, statements like "Minimal Text Usage (Report amount of texts)" are far too vague. A person who does 10 messages of 20 characters each using SMS shorthand is going to use less resources than someone who sends 10 messages of over 100 characters each. And just because people testing are on phone calls, everyone's reception levels are totally different, which will make a tremendous difference. And depending on where people travel that plays into it as well. You've got no agreed upon device configuration. The devices should be bare or bare with nothing other than AEButton+ installed. And even if you had all that covered, you've got no agreed upon volume and device brightness level settings. All these impact the tests, which is why it's way better to be under tighter controls.

    And we have not even talked about the fact everybody's battery condition is totally different.

    I mean the tests might give some figures to consider, but it really won't settle anything. Really users have to consider the device in how they normally use it. Best way someone can check battery life outside of handling the device themselves is speaking to a friend or somebody who uses the device for a similar level of the same activity. If you like to stream music, ask someone who streams often with the device you're considering how it's going for them. From there, people of like interests will discuss the details that are meaningful to them.
  17. #17  
    All I can say is the battery life for me is not cutting it. I have had the phone for 20 days now and I am gunna return it this saturday. Im gunna go to the 755p till something else comes out. I use my phone way to much to have such a small battery.
  18. NRG
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       #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by kwood View Post
    All I can say is the battery life for me is not cutting it. I have had the phone for 20 days now and I am gunna return it this saturday. Im gunna go to the 755p till something else comes out. I use my phone way to much to have such a small battery.
    No doubt the stock battery is totally inadequate. I bought the Seidio Big Batt and could not have been happier, in fact I may buy Seidio's slim line and see how that suits too.
  19. NRG
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       #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I've always said my device performed to spec, or a little better on standby.

    NRG, I agree with Ebag333 in his mentioning that it's got to be lab style or your own test with all the devices under your control. And I feel you can perform the tests to lab quality if you know what you're doing. But at the very least the devices need to be under your own control.

    Now considering your proposal, statements like "Minimal Text Usage (Report amount of texts)" are far too vague. A person who does 10 messages of 20 characters each using SMS shorthand is going to use less resources than someone who sends 10 messages of over 100 characters each. And just because people testing are on phone calls, everyone's reception levels are totally different, which will make a tremendous difference. And depending on where people travel that plays into it as well. You've got no agreed upon device configuration. The devices should be bare or bare with nothing other than AEButton+ installed. And even if you had all that covered, you've got no agreed upon volume and device brightness level settings. All these impact the tests, which is why it's way better to be under tighter controls.

    And we have not even talked about the fact everybody's battery condition is totally different.

    I mean the tests might give some figures to consider, but it really won't settle anything. Really users have to consider the device in how they normally use it. Best way someone can check battery life outside of handling the device themselves is speaking to a friend or somebody who uses the device for a similar level of the same activity. If you like to stream music, ask someone who streams often with the device you're considering how it's going for them. From there, people of like interests will discuss the details that are meaningful to them.
    Thank you darnell.
  20. #20  
    Compared to the 700wx I just switched from....there is no doubt a definite difference in battery life. I am constantly charging and emptying the task manager. Overall it is worth living with, as long as I have a couple spare batteries and a charger.
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