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  1. NRG
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       #1  
    I have speculated that to fix the GPS in the 800 we/Palm would have to adapt a program like QuickGPS to store SAT data, that would be available after a soft reset. Does this seem like it would be a feasible fix, or are the chipsets just so different that GPS is crippled at the hardware level?
  2. #2  
    The 800w does not have a problem finding the birds/sats and aGPS does not even require 3. The 800w's issue is that it can't ever get initial system time from the birds/sats. The 800w is required to get the initial system time from a cell tower. That's the rub, that's aGPS to me, because it can't start-up like other real stand alone GPS devices.
  3. NRG
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The 800w does not have a problem finding the birds/sats and aGPS does not even require 3. The 800w's issue is that it can't ever get initial system time from the birds/sats. The 800w is required to get the initial system time from a cell tower. That's the rub, that's aGPS to me, because it can't start-up like other real stand alone GPS devices.
    Ah, that makes more sense.
  4. NRG
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       #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The 800w does not have a problem finding the birds/sats and aGPS does not even require 3. The 800w's issue is that it can't ever get initial system time from the birds/sats. The 800w is required to get the initial system time from a cell tower. That's the rub, that's aGPS to me, because it can't start-up like other real stand alone GPS devices.
    I thought about this a little more, and I still have not come up with why the GPS needs to connect to the internet. It does not just need the cell connection, which would be ample to get the time. But it also requires a connection to the net. This tells me it is downloading something.
  5. #5  
    How are you testing?
  6. NRG
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       #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    How are you testing?
    I am not too sure what you mean. I am not testing anything at this moment, I did that a few months back.

    I am just trying to figure what the hell is the problem with the GPS. It really appears to me that when the GPS forces the net connection, it is actually downloading a small segment of the type of data that is stored in a program like QuickGPS.
  7. #7  
    My point is, that Palm's (I feel bogus) explanation of how to do what they claim to be stand alone (which in my opinion is not stand alone at all, because it requires a cell signal) does not require a data connection, just a cell (a compatible CDMA) signal.

    1. Make sure your device is outside and in an area with sufficient open space.
    2. Turn on the cellular radio (press and hold the red button) to acquire the system time from the network. This is necessary to acquire the first GPS location fix. You can do this even if you don't have a voice/data plan from a mobile service provider.
    3. Once the system time is acquired, turn off the cellular radion (press and hold the red button); it is not needed to get GPS location fix.

    The step to power on the radio to acquire system time is necessary whenever Treo 800w is reset.
    If your device was making a data connection, it's likely related to how you were starting the GPS. Which is why I asked how you were testing to notice a data connection.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    My point is, that Palm's (I feel bogus) explanation of how to do what they claim to be stand alone (which in my opinion is not stand alone at all, because it requires a cell signal) does not require a data connection, just a cell (a compatible CDMA) signal.



    If your device was making a data connection, it's likely related to how you were starting the GPS. Which is why I asked how you were testing to notice a data connection.
    The way the 800w starts its GPS requires a data connection. When i run GPSGate, my grey EvDO arrows turn white, indicating that the previously inactive data session became active when i started my GPS. You can test this by manually disconnecting your data session (tap the EvDo arrows) and then trying to use the GPS.

    This can also be tested on an inactivated 800w - since the data has not be provisioned, the GPS will not start. The phone still has a signal and can call customer service, but the GPS will not work since the data hasn't been provisioned.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante View Post
    The way the 800w starts its GPS requires a data connection. When i run GPSGate, my grey EvDO arrows turn white, indicating that the previously inactive data session became active when i started my GPS. You can test this by manually disconnecting your data session (tap the EvDo arrows) and then trying to use the GPS.

    This can also be tested on an inactivated 800w - since the data has not be provisioned, the GPS will not start. The phone still has a signal and can call customer service, but the GPS will not work since the data hasn't been provisioned.
    Couldn't the inactivated 800w simply be it's not picking up a cell tower (basically voice side) and not data? I could see data trying to kick in if you are using Live Search since it relies a lot on data to get information about the term being searched for. From what I understand about aGPS is that it requires cellular service, not data service to get it's startup for the GPS to fix on sats.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante View Post
    This can also be tested on an inactivated 800w - since the data has not be provisioned, the GPS will not start. The phone still has a signal and can call customer service, but the GPS will not work since the data hasn't been provisioned.
    Actually it will.

    System time can be retrieved from the network without customer service. Otherwise Sprint couldn't provision your phone OTA.
  11. #11  
    I have doubts that enhanced 911 on the Treo 800w would not work according to the FCC's mandate, if the device's aGPS needed a data connection. Radiolocation I thought worked off the cell network without requiring a data connection. I thought all devices are still supposed to work properly with the 911 system, even if they are not tied to an account.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Radiolocation I thought worked off the cell network without requiring a data connection.
    Incorrect.

    Around here we have some of what are essentially first gen cell towers. They are unable to triangulate a cell phone signal with them because of the technology used (at most they can say "this person is using this tower").

    At the beginning of the year there were some folks lost on one of the mountains around here (I want to say Hood or Shasta, I can't remember which one). Despite having triangulation from 3 different cell towers, they were only able to narrow it down to a 4 square mile area (which is *NOT* accurate at all).

    The newer GSM towers (such as what are in town) are accurate to within about 600 feet. The newer CDMA towers are more accurate than that, but those literally just got upgraded to the latest and greatest this year.


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I thought all devices are still supposed to work properly with the 911 system, even if they are not tied to an account.
    They are, but the towers have to have the appropriate technology to utilize it.

    This is why when the requirements were first mandated it was largely useless, because the majority of the towers didn't support the capabilities of the phone.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Actually it will.

    System time can be retrieved from the network without customer service. Otherwise Sprint couldn't provision your phone OTA.
    If I recall correctly, before I activated my 800w, it would not get a GPS lock. It was constantly trying to connect to the internet when I fired up the GPS even for apps like TomTom. I'll delete my Vision name and PW from my now deactivated 800w and will try it again later today.
  14. #14  
    Thanks Ebag333 and yes I remember those lost folks who could not be easily located. That certainly was a tragedy.

    skfny, I'm sure you already know this, but be sure to test the way Palm mentioned.

    Of course you won't be able to do a 911 test for your area
  15. NRG
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       #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    I'll delete my Vision name and PW from my now deactivated 800w and will try it again later today.
    How did this turn out.
  16. #16  
    Normal CDMA transmits a network time. One does not need an ip type data connection to get time with CDMA.

    I spoke at length last week with one of the expert writers at GPSworld who works in the GPS field.
    The 800w has no standalone capability according to them. What you are seeing is two different aGPS modes. A very basic aGPS which uses only network time acquired from a Sprint tower under normal CDMA connection, and more complex aGPS which uses data as well.

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