View Poll Results: Do you care that your Treo 800w (or Treo Pro) is WiFi Certified?

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    6 15.00%
  • No

    34 85.00%
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  1.    #1  
    Well if you didn't already know, your Treo 800w was WiFi certified by the Wi-Fi Alliance.

    Do you care that your Treo 800w was WiFi Certified? Does it really matter to you that it's WiFi certified?

    I answer yes I care, because I feel it may help in product resale value and gives me assurance the device conforms to a uniform wireless standard.
  2. #2  
    You are way out of hand with this GPS thing.
    No, don't care. Actually didn't even read the question.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  3. #3  
    Don't really care. By the time I'm ready to upgrade (I usually last a year or so), I doubt that WiFi certification will be the make-or-break for resale.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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    #4  
    Why would anyone care and how could it possibly increase resale value???
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    You are way out of hand with this GPS thing.
    No, don't care. Actually didn't even read the question.
    Err....actually this is WiFi. Not that it matters.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Err....actually this is WiFi. Not that it matters.
    Proof that I didn't read it. Just assumed it was GPS. Again, my answer is, don't care.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  7. #7  
    Don't care. The WiFi works and that's all that I care about. If certification guarantees success, then I wish that the GPS was also certified. Failing that, I can't see the certification being good for anything.
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    If certification guarantees success, then I wish that the GPS was also certified. Failing that, I can't see the certification being good for anything.
    Well, that's really my point .

    The WiFi works, you take that certification for granted, but it's an example of a group outside of Palm making sure the alleged feature works .
  9. #9  
    But is it Bonafied?
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Don't care. The WiFi works and that's all that I care about. If certification guarantees success, then I wish that the GPS was also certified. Failing that, I can't see the certification being good for anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well, that's really my point .

    The WiFi works, you take that certification for granted, but it's an example of a group outside of Palm making sure the alleged feature works .
    There is zero law forcing anyone to comply with a certification, so it is impossible for it to "guarantee success".


    A device could easily be certified, but a specific carrier could lock it down post certification (Verizon for example). Then you have a device that is certified, but does not function in the "certified" fashion.

    In a real life world, assuming Verizon picks up a CDMA version of the Treo Pro, this could easily happen if there were any sort of GPS certification. Palm would be the one getting the cert, so Verizon would have a certified standalone GPS device....that only functions on aGPS.

    In that situation the *ONLY* thing that the GPS certification did was to add cost to the device, which Palm will recoup by charging Verizon, which Verizon will recoup by charging you.
    Last edited by Ebag333; 10/29/2008 at 11:38 AM.
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    There is zero law forcing anyone to comply with a certification, so it is impossible for it to "guarantee success".


    A device could easily be certified, but a specific carrier could lock it down post certification (Verizon for example). Then you have a device that is certified, but does not function in the "certified" fashion.

    In a real life world, assuming Verizon picks up a CDMA version of the Treo Pro, this could easily happen if there were any sort of GPS certification. Palm would be the one getting the cert, so Verizon would have a certified standalone GPS device....that only functions on aGPS.

    In that situation the *ONLY* thing that the GPS certification did was to add cost to the device, which Palm will recoup by charging Verizon, which Verizon will recoup by charging you.
    So you're affirming what comes out of the actual certification process is usually legitimate and anything crippled would have been hobbled after the fact. I'm willing to go with that. Because I don't use Verizon .
  12. #12  
    My use of WI-Fi has been minimal - maybe four times since I have had it and only to the home network. It frankly is not a big deal to me.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So you're affirming what comes out of the actual certification process is usually legitimate and anything crippled would have been hobbled after the fact. I'm willing to go with that. Because I don't use Verizon .
    I wouldn't say "usually legitimate".

    Certification processes are, as a general rule, a good idea poorly implemented. I can name example after example of certifications that either are ignored, only partially used, or are harmful to the market.

    Even in what would be considered "critical" markets (such as fire fighting, or protection for your head), they are generally not used, ignored, or the "standards" can make things worse.


    And keep in mind that probably hundreds of people missed the fact that the 800w is not stand alone GPS! What makes you think that your mythical certification board would have caught what was missed by: Palm's developers (both hardware and software), Palm's QA folks, the beta testers who used the phone pre-release, and (perhaps most significantly) the initial reviewers who were looking for exactly this sort of thing? (Brighthand caught it, but other's didn't.)

    There's no guarantee that your certification board would have caught it any more than the ESRB catches everything in every single game. They admitted that they were reviewing games based on the trailers. For at least one game, not a single person on the board actually played the game!



    So now we have this certification board that costs you extra money, is unlikely to change the end result (carriers will still lock it down), and there's no guarantee that they will actually catch what they're supposed to be catching.


    Can a certification board work? I suppose so, in theory. But I can guarantee you for every single certification board you can show me that works (and I question if you can even find one that actually matters, that works) I can point out a dozen certification boards that are seriously flawed, have harmful effects on the markets, have no effect at all, or costs you money (or all of the above).
  14.    #14  
    Ebag333, nobody is complaining that WiFi is not working. You can belittle the certification, but the silence is telling. Palm had to get it right or not have a WiFi certified device. We see what trusting Palm's folks has gotten us when it comes to GPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    And keep in mind that probably hundreds of people missed the fact that the 800w is not stand alone GPS!
    I really don't know what fantasy land you're living in, but hundreds of people were complaining about the GPS from the moment the device hit the streets!

    Given Palm's in my opinion bogus claims, that the 800w is a stand alone and aGPS device. I have my doubts they actually understood the difference. You yourself had to educate some of them.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333, nobody is complaining that WiFi is not working. You can belittle the certification, but the silence is telling. Palm had to get it right or not have a WiFi certified device. We see what trusting Palm's folks has gotten us when it comes to GPS.
    *blinks*

    The silence is telling? What, the silence to your own poll that shows that the vast majority of people don't care?


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Absolutely true that people were complaining (not the moment, but rather shortly).

    Absolutely true that this was not caught by anyone I listed (which obviously you did not bother to read since I was talking about prerelease).

    My point (which still stands) that if that many people can miss the fact that GPS is not standalone, then your fictional board could just as easily miss it. Especially when you take into account the fact that many certification processes are an "on your honor" process--the last company I worked for had at least half a dozen certifications of this fashion, which we advertised quite heavily to our clients who had no idea that they were essentially meaningless and we were breaking many of them. Or take into account any of the other problems I listed above.

    So far you have no said one thing to address any of the problems that I listed. You have not given one example of a certification that not only worked but actually meant something. Your only example so far has been of the WiFi cert....of which exactly four people (including yourself) care about. And the presence of which has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the 800w's WiFi works, there are tons of devices without that cert that work perfectly fine.

    You can't take a correlation and imply causation (in fact Wikipedia has an entire article devoted solely to that exact topic).


    Heck, the very fact that only 24 people have voted on this poll compared to say "After three months, who's REALLY happy? - The Poll!" (134 votes), "Did you read the specs & reviews about battery life before purchasing your Treo 800w?" (which is a rather obscure question, 43 votes), and "Whats your battery life now that you have it conditioned. please take the poll." (162 votes), shows what people really care about.
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Absolutely true that people were complaining (not the moment, but rather shortly).
    Please show us those "hundreds" that tested GPS before the Treo 800w's release? All employees of Palm do not count as "hundreds", given only a small number of them probably were involved in the Treo 800w testing process. And given the device is only used on Sprint's network, I'm sure the number of reviewers that got a device pre-release was small. So where are these "hundreds" that actually were testing the GPS? I do see hundreds that complained the moment they started using it, but given how even you had to educate some of Palm's staff on the topic, I doubt Palm's own testers fully understood what they were working with. They were out of their league, some outside views specializing in GPS may have helped.

    Even before the official release date, people were saying the GPS was not working as expected.

    The fictional GPS certification board would be far less likely to miss the issue, if as I mentioned in my thread about that, they were giving certifications for aGPS and stand alone GPS separately.

    Can you show us where the WiFi alliance has botched a WiFi certification?

    Are you kidding in terms of poll vote numbers? You're talking about polls that have been up for months verses a new one that has been up for days. The fact most in this poll disagree with me is fine, it does not change my opinion regarding GPS. This poll was about WiFi .

    Paying less and leaving it to Palm to release the 800w with true stand alone GPS and aGPS has resulted in a total mess. I'd take my chances with a GPS certification process. Then those who needed stand alone GPS may have been informed ahead of time.
  17. #17  
    The Treo 800w was publicly hardware beta tested by regular end users (of various technical backgrounds), not Palm employees. FYI, outside of engineers, Palm employees do not have access to new devices--everyone is on a need-to-know basis.

    The beta test was conducted through a contracted 3rd party who did the selection process and ran the program, which included a messages board where testers could interact with engineers. While the exact number of testers is not known, it was substantial.

    A few of these testers are regular posters at TC/WME--that is they are our peers financially and professionally . It was even announced and covered here when the program began and ended.

    Furthermore, the 800w like every phone, was carrier tested & certified by sprint by their own interal team. So Palm engineers missed it, public beta testers missed it and Sprint's certification team missed it.

    At the end of the day, Sprint gives the green light to sell the phone. They are the contract agent who sell, offer customer support and stand by the product. They can also pull the product, recall them and demand fixes.

    I'm not sure adding a 4th group is the answer.

    Darnell: do research before you post information or give advice.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10/30/2008 at 10:53 AM.
  18.    #18  
    We don't know how many of that public beta were testing GPS for stand alone and aGPS functionality. And I have no access to those forums, to see what might have been said about GPS. I've still got no hard proof to work with here.

    And Mal, you're just wrong about who is responsible for addressing this problem, Palm is the company that manufactured and provides the product warranty. I guess you feel the people who buy a new Treo 800w from Ebay and never activate it should contact the person who sold it to them on Ebay after the return time the seller noted on Ebay? And you're missing that Palm sells this product on their own web site. Nobody has to activate the Treo 800w, Sprint is the carrier of the signal, not the manufacturer. If I buy a Dell computer at Best Buy, after 30 days do you advise I still go to Best Buy if I encounter a problem with a Dell computer purchased at Best Buy over 30 days ago?
  19.    #19  
    Since TC sells the Treo Pro, do you think TC should be held accountable if the Treo Pro has a problem the customer mentions after TC's standard return period?

    Hint, it's Palm that offers the 1 year warranty. Because they made the device.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    We don't know how many of that public beta were testing GPS for stand alone and aGPS functionality. And I have no access to those forums, to see what might have been said about GPS. I've still got no hard proof to work with here.

    And Mal, you're just wrong about who is responsible for addressing this problem, Palm is the company that manufactured and provides the product warranty. I guess you feel the people who buy a new Treo 800w from Ebay and never activate it should contact the person who sold it to them on Ebay after the return time the seller noted on Ebay? And you're missing that Palm sells this product on their own web site. Nobody has to activate the Treo 800w, Sprint is the carrier of the signal, not the manufacturer. If I buy a Dell computer at Best Buy, after 30 days do you advise I still go to Best Buy if I encounter a problem with a Dell computer purchased at Best Buy over 30 days ago?
    Nope, sorry.

    The Treo 800w is sold as a Sprint device meaning that in order for it to work in requires the Sprint network. The fact you can buy it direct is a matter of legality since it says we cannot be forced to renew our contracts (get the subsidy) and should be allowed to buy the phone out of pocket, directly. Customer advocacy groups have fought for that.

    Sprint contracted the phone from Palm. If it were not for Sprint, the 800w would not exist. Sprint sells the phone as compatible with their network and only with their network (except for 1x roaming), has their logo all over it, you can call SPRINT tech support who will trouble shoot problems with you and if the phone is broken (not customer induced) they will often replace it...even without insurance (if you're nice).

    Sprint buys the phone in bulk and re-sells them to you. They are the customer, you are a second hand customer.

    Your silly ebay and frivolous other analogies are not applicable. This is a Sprint device--plain and simple. If I bought a TV through my cable company, and the TV was one of a kind custom job made for my cable company and my cable companies logo was all over and I can only buy though them and use their services...yes, my cable company is responsible for it if works or not. Unless of course my cable company says "We are not responsible for this TV". Sprint does not say they are not responsible for the 800w if you have a problem and you call them or walk into the store. They will service the device.

    Sprint sells it, supports it, services it, advertises it, it requires their network (it is a PHONE first) and they contract Palm to make it and do as they ask them.

    If you buy a phone through ebay, you don't get your 30 day test run with Sprint and they could reject service. But even then Sprint will still service the 800w!
    Nobody has to activate the Treo 800w, Sprint is the carrier of the signal, not the manufacturer.
    Give me a break. All over Palm's page is notices that say:
    Within wireless coverage area only. Requires data services at additional cost. Microsoft® Direct Push Technology requires Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 with SP2 or Exchange Server 2007.

    GPS not available in all areas at all times. Requires an account and data services at additional cost.
    No one buys a CDMA phone and complains that "whuh, I have to actually activate this thing to make it work?" unless they are 4 years old. Darnell, these ARE PHONES that happen to do other stuff. They require service to work. (Why do I have to explain this to an adult?)

    And when you buy it through Palm, you are buying it through Sprint as you can sign up for the whole 2 year contract thing or buy it out of pocket like a Sprint store.
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Since TC sells the Treo Pro, do you think TC should be held accountable if the Treo Pro has a problem the customer mentions after TC's standard return period?

    Hint, it's Palm that offers the 1 year warranty. Because they made the device.
    Don't know much about the term "unlocked" vs. CDMA and subsidies, do you? No one contracted Palm to make the Treo Pro. Sprint contracted Palm to make the 800w. Does TC offer a warranty, service, tech support? Is their logo on the Treo Pro? Hint: this isn't rocket science.

    Darnell, you have a lot to learn. Conversations with you are tedious and boring. I'm out.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10/30/2008 at 11:53 AM.

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