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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Do you expect to use the WifFi without service? Why have WFi then?

    90% of the phones features are designed to work without service.

    Palm explicitly advertised that it did worked without service. It made the 800w appear to have an advantage over smartphones that required service, or to be on equal terms with current Smartphones that have GPS working without service. After all Sprint service covers less than 5% of the planet.

    I assumed that the GPS system was not satellite based but cell tower based thus requiring service.

    I have a portable Garmin GPS for my car. I actually only looked at Sprint Navigation as a gadget feature. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is something to look in to.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter Bohn View Post
    It's not so much 'flawed logic' as it is possibly flawed conjecture. Neither you nor I know exactly what happened during the dev process of either phone. It's academic, IMO, and I don't really have a horse in that race.
    Dieter, I cant speak for everyone or anyone but myself, but this kind of thing is an issue because it goes to who to pressure and whether pressure will do any good or those of us interested in this ought to force Palm to refund (and how much?) or Sprint to replace with either a Touch pro or a future CDMA Treo Pro.

    If it was a registry problem or a driver that needed substitution then it is more likely that after four months Palm would have issued a fix rather than the Faq, which we all agree is damaging to all users interests by redefining Standalone GPS as dependent on the network. This new Palm definition is at variance with all definitions of Standalone GPS, including high level Sprint Engineers specializing in GPS on WinMOb written definitions, Malatesta's definiton (and Malatesta drew his definition from serious sources), etc.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple xXx View Post
    I assumed that the GPS system was not satellite based but cell tower based thus requiring service.

    I have a portable Garmin GPS for my car. I actually only looked at Sprint Navigation as a gadget feature. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is something to look in to.
    Cell tower GPS systems are on every single phone made in the last few years.

    Palm advertises two well defined modes used in more advanced smartphones a) aGPS wich is towers and satellites and b) Standalone GPS, which is satellites only.

    Some phones have "a", some have "b", some like the treo 800w advertised both "a" and "b" in order to get more buyers.

    So Palm and Sprint have specifically (and we all agree, falsely) advertised the Satellite only mode.

    That is the entire point of the discussion, the Palm and Sprint assertion of the 800w working without tower service.

    Users complained and Palm later acknowledged it was advertised as working but was in fact broken in written statements. They have no date for a fix.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Cell tower GPS systems are on every single phone made in the last few years.

    Palm advertises two well defined modes used in more advanced smartphones a) aGPS wich is towers and satellites and b) Standalone GPS, which is satellites only.

    Some phones have "a", some have "b", some like the treo 800w advertised both "a" and "b" in order to get more buyers.

    So Palm and Sprint have specifically (and we all agree, falsely) advertised the Satellite only mode.

    That is the entire point of the discussion, the Palm and Sprint assertion of the 800w working without tower service.

    Users complained and Palm later acknowledged it was advertised as working but was in fact broken in written statements. They have no date for a fix.


    How do you even acess the stand alone mode assuming that it worked?

    What does Palm/Sprint say about it?
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple xXx View Post
    How do you even acess the stand alone mode assuming that it worked?
    What does Palm/Sprint say about it?
    You access it the same as the aGPS mode.

    Standalone is a reception ability not an program access issue. So the dozens of free gps programs, as well as the top gps mapping/routing programs, like TomTom and Garmin made for windows mobile devices like the treo 800w, access it.

    Each mode has benefits. Essentially Sprint aGPS gets faster fixes ie initial position, but only works in 5% of the planet. Standalone GPS takes longer to get an initial fix (from 10 seconds to three minutes) but works virtually everywhere.

    Some smartphones have one type, some another and some have both. The 800w was advertised as having both.

    What does Palm, say about it? Officially they advertise it has it. We know it doesnt. Users were complaining it didn't within two days of release. Also in email inquiries they have stated it is broken and they know it. For quite some time in the late summer they said they were looking into the broken function and working on a fix. Then they abruptly stopped saying this to inquires and instead published a faq which goes against all the experts view of what standalone GPS is. All the definitions say no network dependence.

    What does sprint say? they advertise the missing capability as well. They also state in writing autonomous GPS means no network dependence ("Autonomous: off network GPS fix that doesn't use any network elements") and therefore it should work say in Europe. It doesn't.

    Since then Palm has come out with the next generation of the Treo line which does in fact have the function.
  6. krsh87's Avatar
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    #66  
    don't know why people can't just for once actually sell what they say it is, again if these phones were sold at 50 a piece like they should be then not a problem if something doesn't work right, but by gosh i paid 250 for mine and I want all functions to work! I think most feel this way!!
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Dieter, I cant speak for everyone or anyone but myself, but this kind of thing is an issue because it goes to who to pressure and whether pressure will do any good or those of us interested in this ought to force Palm to refund (and how much?) or Sprint to replace with either a Touch pro or a future CDMA Treo Pro.
    Excellent point.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by t800w View Post
    don't know why people can't just for once actually sell what they say it is, again if these phones were sold at 50 a piece like they should be then not a problem if something doesn't work right, but by gosh i paid 250 for mine and I want all functions to work! I think most feel this way!!
    And you paid a very low price. These things sell for nearly $700 retail, after taxes. You'd think that a very basic function like GPS would work. Instead, all we get are excuses and misleading definitions from Palm. I'm guessing that tons of users will be quietly upgraded to the Treo Pro once it's released. They seem to be putting all of their eggs into the Treo Pro and Centro baskets.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    These things sell for nearly $700 retail, after taxes. .
    The only rational basis is indeed $600 plus tax ($600 to $650) regardless of any deal. The deals were one time, and applicable to any $600 Sprint phone. Essentially Sprint is transferring some of its future service contract profit to you in the form of sign up discount.

    Monthly service over the two year contract would be exactly less by the amount of the discount/24 months if discount handset marketing were not used and two year contracts. Smartphone handsets in the $600 range do get more of a discount than $250 retail dumbphones, but that is because the service contract is implicitly more profitable due to data service.

    That is the obvious conundrum and catch 22 for consumers seeking recourse direct from Palm. If Palm offers to take the phone back at what the consumer net paid after discounts, the consumer experiences a loss of all the one time discounts as Sprint will not reo-offer them for two years,and Sprint will oblige you to pay back those discounts inherent in your monthly fee, regardless of not having the handset any longer.

    It is one of several reason why, although Palm warrants the handset and its features, and while the law normally establishes the maker as the primary liable party, that this circumstance is more complex.

    The only consumer non loss circumstances from the false adverting are:
    1) fixing the problem in the device (and each month that goes by in a two year lifetime is an unrecoverable 4% loss to the consumer, I've lost 1/6 of the standalone GPS value already)
    2) Palm offer a trade for an equivalent CDMA devcice
    3) Sprint has to offer a trade for an equivalent CDMA device, wht anniversary date remaining at the original purchase date
    4) a cash payout for an estimated value of the lost function (would insanely vary according to each individual consumer's expected use of the function)
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