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  1.    #1  
    -----------GPS vs. A-GPS on the Treo 800w
    Treo 800w supports stand-alone GPS and A-GPS. Stand-alone GPS is used when the cellular radio is off or the device is not connected to the cellular network.

    GPS (stand-alone)
    You can use stand-alone GPS in the following cases:

    When the data network is not available or the cellular radio is powered off.
    When your Treo 800w does not have a voice and/or data plan from a mobile service provider.
    To use stand-alone GPS:

    Make sure your device is outside and in an area with sufficient open space.
    Turn on the cellular radio (press and hold the red button) to acquire the system time from the network. This is necessary to acquire the first GPS location fix. You can do this even if you don't have a voice/data plan from a mobile service provider.
    Once the system time is acquired, turn off the cellular radion (press and hold the red button); it is not needed to get GPS location fix.
    The step to power on the radio to acquire system time is necessary whenever Treo 800w is reset.

    It may take as long as 8 to 10 minutes to get a fix on a satellite. Once the GPS fix is obtained, the location must be shown on a map. For this, there are two options:

    Real-time maps: The maps for your location are downloaded real-time to your smartphone. The GPS search bar on the Today screen, the Maps application in the Programs folder (Start , then Programs), and applications such as Live Search for Windows Mobile behave in this way. To download the maps in real time, a data connection is needed. Since the cellular radio is off, you can use Wi-Fi to download the maps; the exact compatibility and the speed of download will vary greatly in this case.
    On-device maps: The alternative is to store the maps locally on your smartphone. You can do this by adding a third-party application such as Garmin to your device, and storing Garmin's maps on an expansion card. In this scenario, you can use stand-alone GPS to get the device location, and the third-party maps on your SD card to display your location on the screen. No data connection Wi-Fi or cellular is necessary.

    ======================
  2.    #2  
    Does anyone do it successfully?
  3. xdalaw's Avatar
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    #3  
    Did you try a search?

    Short answer is that you can't do stand-alone GPS at this time, and perhaps ever.

    Here's one of a number of related threads: http://discussion.wmexperts.com/showthread.php?t=170620
    Palm III -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Dell Axim X5 Advanced -> Dell Axim X3i -> Dell Axim X50v -> Cingular 8125 -> Sprint Palm Treo 700Wx -> ->Palm Treo 700P (my wife's but I played with it ) -> Sprint Mogul -> Treo 800w -> Touch Pro & Treo Pro.
  4. #4  
    Read the links already posted. Lock this thread.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by buzhoushan View Post
    Does anyone do it successfully?
    Quote Originally Posted by xdalaw View Post
    Short answer is that you can't do stand-alone GPS at this time, and perhaps ever.
    I can use GPS as standalone for operation (that is, post initialization). Basically following Palm's instructions above.


    Other people have reported being unable to do so. There is no known reason why as of yet....


    Regardless, GPS will not work as a complete standalone solution. You will not be able to start GPS if you're outside the coverage area.
  6. #6  
    I 2nd the motion to lock this thread. Before we head down that long dark road again .
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I can use GPS as standalone for operation (that is, post initialization). Basically following Palm's instructions above..
    Palm's position is that all aGPS is standalone. They are jumping through hoops to try and negate the rational understanding of standalone. They say standalone is network independent but also network dependent.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I 2nd the motion to lock this thread. Before we head down that long dark road again .
    I third that motion.
  8. #8  
    Can anyone name a GPS that was deemed stand alone and assisted using the same (in my opinion totally bogus) definition Palm provided, before Palm did it? Did Garmin, did a respected group involved in GPS technology?

    IF (and that's a big "if") Palm does fix the Treo 80w GPS, it would only further prove their claimed definition was bogus.

    Is my car stand alone from a battery, just because it needs a battery to start and can run independent of the battery once the engine is running? I'd LOVE to see a car maker attempt to claim their cars are "stand alone" and "battery assisted" . WHAT A CROCK!!! If you need a battery the car cant' stand alone from it. If the GPS needs a cellular network for anything, it's not stand alone GPS.
  9. #9  
    You know, I think BUZ brings up a decent point in any event (i know there are multiple threads on this one).

    Maybe a short FAQ including Palm's resolution, should be made a sticky.

    Points that have been made in the past-

    GPS with the 800w requires a cellular connection on your HOME network to work. It will not work when roaming in the USA or in Canada.

    The possibility of standalone can only come through a Firmware or Software update from Palm/Sprint, and is possible with the chipset.

    Palm has reponded with the original post in this thread, which is a very flawed explanation.

    If you wish to show your response and are unhappy with this issue- file a BBB complaint against Palm Inc. through the BBB of Silicon Valley.

    If you are completely dissatistied with the phone, call up Sprint's customer service and let them know the issues you are having- more than likely they will accept a return of the phone even past 30 days.
  10. #10  
    Please, lets not go down this road again. Nut shell, Palm advertiesd this phone as "Assisted and Standalone" on the feature list. At this time the device can only manage Assisted. That is all until Palm can somehow make it work with an update if possible.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  11. #11  
    I'm only going to say something about one thing because it's very important. Most important for those who have a very urgent need for stand alone GPS and may desire to return the device once they learn it does not do true stand alone GPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by grant516 View Post
    If you are completely dissatistied with the phone, call up Sprint's customer service and let them know the issues you are having- more than likely they will accept a return of the phone even past 30 days.
    Many people are reporting, that their efforts to return after 30 days when complaining about lack of true stand alone GPS and feeling the device does not meet advertised specs in that regard have been DENIED. I feel this is a 1 year warranty issue, but many customers are saying that their efforts to return after 30 days over GPS were denied. So anyone trying to return after 30 days, I say go for it, but be ready for a likely uphill fight.

    This is why the (I feel bogus) statement from Palm on the matter has such an impact. Because Palm is not affirming the device is defective, but it is. So Sprint has no compelling reason to accept returns after 30 days other than if the customer can make a convincing case to a sympathetic Sprint rep.
  12. #12  
    Of course the Palm definition is BS. But they can't exactly say, "Our bad. Call this number for a full refund if you bought the Treo for this reason."

    BBB is my preferred option, but this is one case where I wouldn't mind the lawyers getting fat at Palm's expense through a class action. We the end users won't get anything, but perhaps the threat of a class-action will properly motivate them to issue a fix.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Palm's position is that all aGPS is standalone. They are jumping through hoops to try and negate the rational understanding of standalone. They say standalone is network independent but also network dependent.
    Actually that's not Palm's position at all. They are merely trying to separate initialization from operation. Which indeed they are two separate things, though one relies on the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    <RANT>

    Is my car stand alone from a battery, just because it needs a battery to start and can run independent of the battery once the engine is running? I'd LOVE to see a car maker attempt to claim their cars are "stand alone" and "battery assisted" . WHAT A CROCK!!! If you need a battery the car cant' stand alone from it.
    First off, I can remove my battery from my car and still start it and run it. There's lots of options there, though none of them mainstream for various reasons.

    For example, on many planes only one engine has a starter (and even that's often external to the plane on smaller planes). The other engines use the compression from the first engine to "start".

    Or here's a simpler example, on my old stick shift I used to start it all the time with a dead battery. Just push it until it's got some speed, drop it in first gear, and the rotation of the tires will force the engine to turn over and start.

    GPS isn't that different really. We're talking about various methods of starting GPS, just as there are various methods of starting an engine (pull start, push start, external starter, internal starter, compression start, etc). With GPS we have many different options (an assisted server, cold start with no satellite info, warm start from pre-recorded satellite info, warm start from externally supplied satellite info, warm start from cached satellite info, etc).


    Regardless of the form or function in which GPS starts (which is quite varied from device to device), the way in which is operates is really a separate process.



    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    If the GPS needs a cellular network for anything, it's not stand alone GPS.
    And as I've said at least a dozen times, I do not consider the 800w GPS to be standalone when looked at as a whole. I do, however, have the capability to differentiate between initialization and operation, and I'm not so blind that I ignore the fact that Palm's FAQ is exactly the way my phone functions for me.

    Case in point I just used it again this weekend, wheeling up in the mountains an hour away from any signal. Worked perfectly the whole time, once again, with no signal. I'd say that's pretty standalone (for actually using GPS). (Note that I did initialize GPS when I had signal, something that takes about 10 seconds to do.)



    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    Please, lets not go down this road again.
    I wouldn't be disappointed if this thread was locked.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    And as I've said at least a dozen times, I do not consider the 800w GPS to be standalone when looked at as a whole.
    That's because the 800w can't do standalone GPS. Try a Mogul, Touch or Treo Pro if you want to see fully-functional GPS in action.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    That's because the 800w can't do standalone GPS. Try a Mogul, Touch or Treo Pro if you want to see fully-functional GPS in action.
    I've used the Mogul fairly extensively and played with the Touch. I have a GPS puck I used with my 700wx.

    I completely understand what standalone GPS is. I understand that if I restart my 800w while not in a service area I will not be able to initialize GPS.

    I also understand that initialization and operation are two separate processes.



    Honestly, I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp for people, why people keep thinking I'm insisting that the 800w is completely standalone (despite saying the opposite), or why people think that the 800w can't operate GPS off network (despite several people stating it works fine as long as initialized and Palm's FAQ describes the operation as such).

    I get the limitations of the setup, and as much as anyone else I want to see it fixed. But repeatedly insisting that the problem be described as vaguely as possible, and ignoring or denying anything else, won't help the issue and won't help get it fixed any.








    Then again I am replying to nsxprime, who's only purpose is to irritate people as much as possible.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    That's because the 800w can't do standalone GPS. Try a Mogul, Touch or Treo Pro if you want to see fully-functional GPS in action.
    I totally agree.

    Ebag333, can you answer this question for me please?

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Can anyone name a GPS that was deemed stand alone and assisted using the same (in my opinion totally bogus) definition Palm provided, before Palm did it? Did Garmin, did a respected group involved in GPS technology?
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333, can you answer this question for me please?
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    Can anyone name a GPS that was deemed stand alone and assisted using the same (in my opinion totally bogus) definition Palm provided, before Palm did it? Did Garmin, did a respected group involved in GPS technology?

    Can I name a GPS that uses the same definition of standalone VS assisted as Palm does? Sure.

    Garmin, Lowrance, Magellan...pretty much every major GPS manufacturer.




    Here...I'll even post Palm's definition for you.


    What's the difference?
    GPS (non-assisted, or stand-alone) gets its location data from satellites orbiting above the earth. When you first turn on the GPS function, there will be a delay while the GPS device searches for satellites. The wait time is exacerbated by poor signal conditions, such as when you're surrounded by tall buildings, you're indoors, or you're under trees. In addition, when first turned on in these conditions, some non-assisted GPS units may not be able to download the almanac and ephemeris information from the GPS satellites, rendering them unable to function until a clear signal can be received continuously for up to one minute.

    A-GPS gets its location data from nearby cellular towers, who in turn get their data from a constant connection to GPS satellites. The towers keep track of satellites in range, so your phone can ping the tower and know which satellites to try to connect to, speeding up the process greatly.

    Those definitions are both entirely correct (although somewhat abbreviated, as aGPS involves an actual server and not just nearby cell towers, which is why it usually requires a data connection).



    Now, Palm never claims that the 800w is completely standalone. In fact they specifically say that to initialize GPS you must have service.

    To use stand-alone GPS:

    1. Make sure your device is outside and in an area with sufficient open space.
    2. Turn on the cellular radio (press and hold the red button) to acquire the system time from the network. This is necessary to acquire the first GPS location fix. You can do this even if you don't have a voice/data plan from a mobile service provider.
    3. Once the system time is acquired, turn off the cellular radion (press and hold the red button); it is not needed to get GPS location fix.


    The step to power on the radio to acquire system time is necessary whenever Treo 800w is reset.

    Palm's definition of GPS is the exact same as everyone else. As far as the 800w goes, they've simply separated initialization from operation, which is actually entirely necessary in order to fully explain why the 800w GPS will work off network, but you can't start it off network.



    So again, is this completely standalone? No. Will it initialize as standalone? No. Will it operate as standalone? Yes.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Can I name a GPS that uses the same definition of standalone VS assisted as Palm does? Sure.

    Garmin, Lowrance, Magellan...pretty much every major GPS manufacturer.




    Here...I'll even post Palm's definition for you.

    ...
    Ebag333, of course you don't represent Garmin, Lowrance, or Magellan and if you did, I doubt you'd remain employed by them. Trying to even remotely associate their true stand alone GPS devices with Palm's watered down definition.

    Palm markets the Treo 800w as having.
    GPS Built-in GPS (standalone and assisted); Sprint Navigation; GPS-powered local search, maps, and navigation from the Today screen
    They added the additional definition once everybody figured out the GPS does not work as advertised. They didn't even put their (I feel bogus) definition IN THE TREO 800W MANUAL. Further proving it was (in my opinion) likely a concocted afterthought.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333, of course you don't represent Garmin, Lowrance, or Magellan and if you did, I doubt you'd remain employed by them. Trying to even remotely associate their true stand alone GPS devices with Palm's watered down definition.
    That makes no sense what so ever.

    First off, Palm's definition of GPS isn't any more watered down than other companies.

    Here's Lowrances definition of GPS:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrance
    Global Positioning System (GPS)

    The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a "constellation" of 24 well-spaced satellites that orbit the Earth and make it possible for people with ground receivers to pinpoint their geographic location. GPS location accuracy is within 20 meters. Location accuracy can be boosted through the use of Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) or Differential GPS (DGPS). The GPS is owned and operated by the U.S. Department of Defense but is available for general use around the world.
    Garmin and Magellan don't even give a basic "What is GPS?" FAQ/Answer on their site. They just assume you know what it is/does.

    So watered down definition? It's a heck of a lot better than no definition.



    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Palm markets the Treo 800w as having.


    They added the additional definition once everybody figured out the GPS does not work as advertised. They didn't even put their (I feel bogus) definition IN THE TREO 800W MANUAL. Further proving it was (in my opinion) likely a concocted afterthought.
    Of course the definition was added and was an afterthought. Palm didn't realize that the network time was needed until post release (which of course would exclude it from the manual, since unlike the interweb you can't change a hardcopy once it's printed).

    Palm's definition is technically accurate, and while watered down it is designed for a non-technical user to read and understand. Not someone who knows more about NV, ROM, and generally hacking the 800w than the typical Palm employee.
    (Which in all fairness most of them don't have any need to know.)




    Oh, if I can't remain employed by a company for speaking the truth about a product, then that's a company I don't want to work for.



    Since you always ask Mal or myself to answer questions, let me turn the tables on you a bit and ask you one:

    What proof do you have that the 800w does not operate as described in Palm's FAQ?
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Actually that's not Palm's position at all. They are merely trying to separate initialization from operation. Which indeed they are two separate things, though one relies on the other.
    Actually Palm's position is precisely that all aGPS is standalone. I have an email to that end. Palm has never used the term "initialization" and they wouldn't because for legal reasons that would be a total admission that standalone doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Can I name a GPS that uses the same definition of standalone VS assisted as Palm does? Sure.
    Garmin, Lowrance, Magellan...pretty much every major GPS manufacturer.
    Wrong.Garmin, Lowrance and Magellan don't really on network connectivity to work. Palm does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    So again, is this completely standalone? No. Will it initialize as standalone? No. Will it operate as standalone? Yes.
    The absurdity of this claim comes from the fact the word standalone IS used to convey completely.

    This adjective is not something labeled with the adjective "red" that is really off red. the adjective standalone is used to state an EXCLUSIVETY of dependence.

    [QUOTE=Ebag333;1512352I also understand that initialization and operation are two separate processes.[/QUOTE]

    That is mind boggling statement. Standalone is not just some random adjective, it refers specifically to functionality absent the network

    Again Palm's position is exactly that ALL aGPS is "Standalone"
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