Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 60 of 60
  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    No one other than Aero has gone in depth on what exactly happened (at least that I've seen). A simple "it didn't work" doesn't really mean much, especially when taking into account that when many of those posts/threads were made no one knew exactly how the GPS worked. (How many people pointed out that standalone GPS did work, before we figured out that it was picking up the network time before the phone was shut off?)
    Well I saw it and after the issue was identified. It does not take much expertise to take a device and drive from an area with Sprint coverage to an area without it, leaving the thing in a windshield the entire time and seeing what happens.
    But as I've said, it really does not matter, because the issue remains.

    It is only when you get BEYOND the entire device into the way the device actually functions that you see differently.
    I noted that you're a smart guy, but don't let it go to your head . We all have seen the documentation and I even posted a good bit of some myself. The real bottom line is, it's aGPS. The person who started this thread can't start their GPS as a stand alone GPS, they have to start it in range of a compatible CDMA signal.

    Palm's definitions on their site are correct (as far as defining what standalone and what assisted is). Palm's explanation of how the 800w's GPS functions is technically correct.
    But the question is, is it what they advertised to paying customers? I feel the answer is no and my opinion is that their later definition was contrived and no matter how it worked they would have made something up to justify what they already said. It's aGPS, but Palm plays a Deion Sanders and claims "both".

    ...when Palm explains how the device functions that explanation is wrong.
    Has Palm admitted the device does not have the advertised stand alone GPS? You've seen on Palm's forum, but I'll ask you, has Palm honored all return requests when the reason given is that the GPS is defective? I feel Palm's statement is a no to the first question, despite you feeling otherwise and I know from those posting on the Palm.com forums that the answer to the 2nd is a no also.

    ...and your claiming that Palm's FAQ is "bogus" because it describes how the device ACTUALLY functions instead of it claiming how the device SHOULD function is just flat out wrong.
    It's my opinion and I feel your's is wrong. My opinion is that their KB article is a bogus cover job for a defective product, that's my personal opinion. Because the bottom line is, returns are being denied. People are not being allowed to use the 1 year warranty citing a defective GPS in the unit.

    Palm's FAQ does not at any point in time claim that the device is standalone.
    From Palm's statement own the matter. THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE!
    Your Treo 800w smartphone supports both stand-alone GPS and Assisted GPS (A-GPS).
    It starts with what I feel is not an honest statement. It's aGPS, but they've parsed it to claim well since it starts with assistance and uses GPS sats after, than it does both. That is in my opinion is aGPS. That does not fit Lowrance's definition of stand alone GPS. The GPS can't start without a cell signal, so I feel it is WRONG for a company to claim "Your Treo 800w smartphone supports both stand-alone GPS and Assisted GPS (A-GPS). "


    It can't start stand alone, so it's not stand alone. Our Treo 800w supports Assisted GPS. Stuck in another country, forget about it, the Treo 800w can't get the GPS started.

    You also mention:
    Palm's FAQ does not mean that the company is not working on a solution. And in fact we have had quite a few different rumors about that (including what I've heard directly from a Palm engineer, which I only call a "rumor" because he's not part of that development team).
    If Palm is working on it, they've not released any official statement to that effect. They've only released a statement that never claims there is anything wrong with the product.

    The Treo Pro does stand alone and assisted GPS, Palm's first sentence of their own KB article claims the Treo 800w can do both, but in my opinion they are wrong. If it ever does both, it will be because of some future update, that I'm not holding my breath for. Right now in my opinion, the Treo 800w does aGPS.
  2. #42  
    When I am in areas in NYS that are strictly Verizon and my phone was roaming only with no sprint signal in sight, my GPS will not initialize.
    I would like to hear more on people who have had different experiences with Verizon.

    When I was in Toronto where Telus and Fido signals were abundand the GPS will not initialize.
    Has anyone had a different experience in Canada?

    If you purchase this handheld device and eventually move onto another phone, and put your service on a new ESN- despite the phone being 911 capable and having the capabilities of reciving service and Timestamps- the GPS will not funciton.

    This is not a standalone GPS unit. If it worked regardless of account function, and with all CDMA services- I would give some nod of agreement.
    This is not the case.
  3. #43  
    PS- the book the shipped with my phone says it has aGPS and Standalone GPS, and no crazy definitions of how it requires a home network CDMA signal to initialize system time for the function to work.
  4. #44  
    Just as a test, I turned my phone off this evening for about 2 hours. I then went outside to get clear sat view. I launched Maps and told it to get my current location. GPS would not find sats. I tried for 15-20 minutes. I then turned on phone and GPS lock was within 30 seconds.

    Obviously not stand alone as already discussed my many. No goofy-find definition by Palm or anyone else is going to convince me it's 'standalone'.

    Now, for me, it's not an issue. I carry a Garmin when I travel. I have used my 800 for quick reference, but I prefer to use my Garmin for actual navigating. I also use an iPod for my music and videos. My 800w is for business 85-90% of the time. When I want other duties, I use those devices. Yes, I know it's simpler to carry one device. I tried for a long time. but I have not found a device that could do it all and still have battery and stability for my needs.

    I don't listen to music or need navigation that often, so, it's not a big deal to carry those devices when I want/need them. Just my two cents. That's probably why my battery life has not been a big issue with the 800w.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I've also spoken to half a dozen people in depth about it who have had the exact same results as me (granted not as heavily tested). The only person who has posted in depth about losing his signal was Aero, and he was the one who bricked his GPS messing with settings.
    Look, I have spent hours with Palm on this from a few days after I had the phone. Back in July. They initially claimed the GPS would work ANYWHERE.

    I am the one who tested it overseas, posted it here and informed Palm. Palm then said: oopps.

    You are making it sound like you are the only one talking to palm or looking into this. The fact that you seem to argue in favor of their false definition of standalone GPS does not mean you are the only one who has spent time with them on this.

    You are claiming the only person who loses the signal is me. False. Crazy Eddie and others posted it several times as well. OK? You are throwing in the bricking. I was conducting a test. Is that ok with you? I've got three 800w and have two replaced IE have had 5 units. All have had same behavior.

    I am not going to fully get into what I know about this here since it will blow my identity with Palm, but you may wish to ask if this was working on beta models to get a lead. I think you may just find that they cannot fix this.

    Here is another point. I think your perhaps some of your tests maybe imperfect. Are you only turning off your phone radio? You might want to kick that up the chain a bit with the palm engineers and ask if that indeed turns off cdma on the 800w completely. I think if you are being told that turning of the phone completely shuts down CDMA for location purposes you maybe talking to the wrong people at Palm.

    Now I think you ticked some people off with your divorce of "initialization" [B]I am willing to state emphatically that I think you did this as part of a good faith and intelligent analytic process toward your and our common interest in acheiving a fix. [/B] The problem is once you go from an analytic technical point of view to one of function, false advertising, and value to the consumer the same point that was valid from a debugging mode becomes a bunch of double speak that serves only to deny an evident failure to function as advertised. So I do not think you and Palm are coming from the same place. They are covering their butts and making outrageously idiotic statements in their faq that are insulting to consumers, including and especially consumers with a technical background. They advertised a function with VALUE. The advertising of that function delivered to them marketing value and advantage in a competitive market. The sole and implicit advantage for users of standalone over aGPS is full use outside of CDMA areas. Yet this actual value to the consumers of this Palm promoted "standalone" function is not present.

    Again, people are reacting sharply to redefinition of standalone because it is a certain kind of adjective. It isnt like "large" "small" "hot" "cold" etc. The term s"Standalone GPS", is an objective (binary) adjective that conveys independence and definitive exclusivity. "partially standalone" is akin to "partially pregnant." If one is going to argue that here are degrees of standalone, then one would have to argue that Palm would have done no wrong if it required an hourly CDMA "initialization" for WifI to work on the 800w.

    Anyway, I want the THANK YOU for your work I just ask that you also step back and understand that from the other point of view, your divorce of initialization from function also can be read as support of their absurd definition in the faq, and this may be counter productive and negative when it comes to pressuring Palm for them to use their resources to fix the issue.

    Here is the progression:

    1) Palm advertised in high prominence Standalone GPS in addition to the aGPS that is becoming ubiquitous smartphones.
    2) a portion of the buyers consider the Standalone GPS an added value and it went to their buying decision
    3) users start immediately reporting it won't work as advertised
    4) Palm eventually responds informally from late July to mid September that they have a team on it, and are working on it
    5) In mid September Palm publishes a faq that tries to cover their butts
    6) Current: Some people who were inquiring and getting positive responses are now referred to faq (that's me, please tell us if you think Palm still is working hard on this!) and being told that is the end of it.

    The people in #2 is may not be a majority, but there are certainly people who would be thinking: well over the next two years I will be going overseas often or a few times and use it for three hour walking tours in a citoes, or I might want to check my position offshore of the US, or perhaps for a few moments while hiking in an area with no CDMA, or I do a lot of driving in US areas with poor or no CDMA coverage and this will mean I can skip getting a separate GPS, and this tips me over from buying another competitive smartphone. (The presence and utility of WiFi derives from similar needs.)

    We in this class of customers have already had on treocentral a few people trolling into our threads shooting off comments such as "well we are not all going to the Amazon", or "get a dedicated device" (which is the ultimate irony on a device whose main purposes is to replace dedicated devices).

    We all want to fix it. I personally believe pressure on Palm to comply with their own advertising is what we need.
  6. #46  
    Anything new from Palm on this fatal flaw?
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Anything new from Palm on this fatal flaw?
    When they were planning to fix the BT dialing, they reserved a web page ahead of time and then offered the fix. With the GPS issue, they've provided what I feel is a lame duck statement and no official indications they are planning to fix it.

    All I know is, I've got WM now, I can get something other than a Treo in the future if I want now, Palm is financially on its back and these sorts of games on their part won't be helping to lift their bottom line. Because it does not make me only consider Treos when it comes to future devices.
  8. bige54's Avatar
    Posts
    66 Posts
    Global Posts
    68 Global Posts
    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Here is another point. I think your perhaps some of your tests maybe imperfect. Are you only turning off your phone radio? You might want to kick that up the chain a bit with the palm engineers and ask if that indeed turns off cdma on the 800w completely. I think if you are being told that turning of the phone completely shuts down CDMA for location purposes you maybe talking to the wrong people at Palm.
    So you are saying that turning off the phone leaves the CDMA radio still on in some capacity? The implications of that goes way beyond a discussion about GPS. What about when you are flying and have to turn off all the radios? Since there is no "airplane mode" on the 800w, are we supposed to take out the battery? If what you are saying is true, it can be more than misleading, it can be potentially dangerous.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigE54 View Post
    So you are saying that turning off the phone leaves the CDMA radio still on in some capacity? The implications of that goes way beyond a discussion about GPS. What about when you are flying and have to turn off all the radios? Since there is no "airplane mode" on the 800w, are we supposed to take out the battery? If what you are saying is true, it can be more than misleading, it can be potentially dangerous.
    "Airplane mode" means turning off all radios.

    Phone, Wifi, and bluetooth.

    All three can be turned off under wireless manager. You technically don't have to turn off GPS since it's a receive only antenna, and not really a radio.


    Oh, any Mythbusters did an extensive study on the effects of cell phones on airplanes. The effect is zip. All modern planes use shielded wiring which makes it impossible for them to pick up any sort of ambient signal.

    Cell phones (and any other wireless signal) pose ZERO threat to the safety of an airplane.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigE54 View Post
    So you are saying that turning off the phone leaves the CDMA radio still on in some capacity? The implications of that goes way beyond a discussion about GPS. What about when you are flying and have to turn off all the radios? Since there is no "airplane mode" on the 800w, are we supposed to take out the battery? If what you are saying is true, it can be more than misleading, it can be potentially dangerous.
    Just the opposite. With the radio turned off (like on a flight), the GPS on the 800w is worthless. Can't connect. Ever. The phone radio MUST be on for the GPS to work on the 800w. Other phones like the Q9c, Mogul, Touch, Diamond and Touch Pro have fully-functional GPS that can be used with the phone radio turned off.

    ebag is right about the "dangers" of modern cellphones on modern airplanes. There is none.
  11. #51  
    Way before Mythbusters, some smart folks here debated that in an older model Treo forum and it was proven way back then with "just the facts", but no live testing, that today's phones have no impact on airplanes at all.

    Once upon a time, it was found some much earlier model cell phones from yesteryear had a very minimal impact on some very old airplane equipment. The FAA made the no cell phones rule and airlines were making money off air call devices. The rule has never changed and with the FAA it seems they usually don't despite changes in technology. None of that old tech is in use today, not even with US carriers .

    Turn the phone off, to be a good passenger who does not call attention to themselves in an age of heightened security. But if you slip up and have the phone on, don't feel you could have harmed anyone.

    I suspect the rule will never change, because the airlines are going to always want the option of trying to sell you something.

    And once the phone is really off, no the GPS won't be starting up if not already activated.
  12. bige54's Avatar
    Posts
    66 Posts
    Global Posts
    68 Global Posts
    #52  
    I did hear about the mythbusters tests. I guess I was concerned about turning it off due to the heigtened security that Darnell mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Just the opposite. With the radio turned off (like on a flight), the GPS on the 800w is worthless. Can't connect. Ever. The phone radio MUST be on for the GPS to work on the 800w. Other phones like the Q9c, Mogul, Touch, Diamond and Touch Pro have fully-functional GPS that can be used with the phone radio turned off.
    Just the opposite of what? Exactly where in my post did I talk about GPS working without the radio? My post was about aero's statement that turning off the phone on the 800w somehow leaves the CDMA radio on. I have read this thread and others. I know the state of the 800w GPS. Anyone who has read these threads has had that state hit them on the head over and over and over.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Cell phones (and any other wireless signal) pose ZERO threat to the safety of an airplane.
    Partially true.

    Obviously the interference issue is false--so they won't interfere with the plane's electronics.

    But having GPS and the ability to broadcast the exact live position of the airplane (especially during take off/landing) does pose a security risk.

    Think tracking technology and ballistics.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigE54 View Post
    My post was about aero's statement that turning off the phone on the 800w somehow leaves the CDMA radio on.
    I didn't say it leaves the CDMA radio on, only that it doesn't turn it off completely. There is not a true airplane mode according to the Palm people working on the GPS (back when they were). According to them, this is why it can seem to continue to work in some cases and in others the GPS is lost after 10 to 20 minutes. It has to do with whether you return to CDMA range or not. It is because the 800W is attempting to making a tower connect to interrogate for network time when in GPS is in use despite the phone being turned off for use as a phone. According to those guys CDMA is never truly off. EG if you have already invoked the GPS with the radio on, and turn it off, it will be off for phone calls but you have not disabled the GPS usage of CDMA. This was in their response to specific tests where if I did not go out of CDMA for up to 20 minutes I maintained GPS, and if I did go out of CDMA I gnerally lost it after 20 minutes (sometimes 10 minutes)
    Last edited by aero; 10/27/2008 at 07:15 PM.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Partially true.

    Obviously the interference issue is false--so they won't interfere with the plane's electronics.

    But having GPS and the ability to broadcast the exact live position of the airplane (especially during take off/landing) does pose a security risk.

    Think tracking technology and ballistics.
    Anything that terrorists are likely to use will be (nearly always) within LoS. In those situations GPS and the ability to broadcast the live position of the plane means next to nothing.

    Especially since heat tracking will be FAR cheaper, easier, and more reliable.

    If you want a more "stealth" solution a laser or infrared marker would be another choice.

    Plus there's a delay in GPS tracking anyway. From the GPS sat to the device, time for the device to process the information, then time for the device to send said information to someone else. It works well enough while driving, but I often notice that my position's a few hundred feet behind me. Now multiply that speed by 5, and the distance it's off would make the measurement nearly worthless (unless you're using a nuke....).

    This is one of the reasons why long range missiles that use GPS are used primarily against fixed targets. Being off 100 feet does't mean much for hitting a building, but against a moving target close is as good as a miss.



    GPS does have one good thing going for it, it's basically undetectable as it simply receives the signal and doesn't broadcast. You could rig your phone to keep the radio off until a certain point/location/time/etc, and then turn on and start broadcasting. By the time the phone was located, it'd be too late.



    Of course that's all entirely a moot point. Airlines have zero way of detecting phones, and it's all an "on your honor" system. If it was an actual and real threat, everyone would be giving up their mobile phones at the door and getting them back when they leave. If your phone was any threat you wouldn't be allowed to take it onto the plane (same as your hair dryer, nail file, or bottles of shampoo, all dangerous weapons in the hands of MacGyver the terrorist).
  16. #56  
    The hypothetical danger on planes is less about terrorism, than the fear of potential affect to navigation, avionics and communications equipment. As far as I know testing on danger on planes showing any affect is akin to the testing of new compounds for potential carcinogenic or tetragenic affect, ie it is done at higher levels than normal. I don't think they can detect at this point a deleterious affect with normal consumer equipment at normal levels. Airplane equipment is also fairly well shielded

    I think the airlines and airline pilots would rather err on the side of caution with the rational that not every variable or condition can be taken into account. For example the FCC tested my WiFi router, but there are forums dedicated to substitute firmware that among other things allows me to boost its signal well beyond what it was tested at and left the factory at. But also other non technical issues maybe at play. Two that come to mind are revenue from overpriced onboard calling services and annoying other passengers.

    BTW airlines certainly could detect usage. In fact there have been tests of detection equipment and they found on every single flight tested people were using cell phones!
  17. bige54's Avatar
    Posts
    66 Posts
    Global Posts
    68 Global Posts
    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I didn't say it leaves the CDMA radio on, only that it doesn't turn it off completely.
    I really don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I guess I am going to. To me, the CDMA radio is like a bit. It only has 2 states...on or off. If it is transmitting or receiving in any form, it is on. It may be that turning the phone off may cause a software limitation so that there would be no incoming or outgoing phone calls, but certainly if it is still capable of contacting a tower, the radio is ON. Saying it doesn't turn it completely off is like saying someone is partially pregnant.
  18. #58  
    Hmmm. I wa curious more about the 800w GPS, not the best method to shoot down an airplane. I didn't know the 800w had a missle tracking feature. I just hope that my 800w has it off by default. Anyone know the registry hack to make sure it's off? I must contact Palm about his MAJOR bug.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by crazie.eddie View Post
    Hmmm. I wa curious more about the 800w GPS, not the best method to shoot down an airplane. I didn't know the 800w had a missle tracking feature. I just hope that my 800w has it off by default. Anyone know the registry hack to make sure it's off? I must contact Palm about his MAJOR bug.
    The major bug referring to the missile tracking feature?



    Just don't let Mal or me touch your phone and you're fine. We obviously have *WAY* too much time on our hands.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigE54 View Post
    I really don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I guess I am going to. To me, the CDMA radio is like a bit. It only has 2 states...on or off. If it is transmitting or receiving in any form, it is on. It may be that turning the phone off may cause a software limitation so that there would be no incoming or outgoing phone calls, but certainly if it is still capable of contacting a tower, the radio is ON. Saying it doesn't turn it completely off is like saying someone is partially pregnant.
    I'm with you. More and more devices are partially on when "off." I would say half the devices in my house draw power when off! In fact network connected devices especially; they even can be turned on for a period remotely (my cable box) and turned off.
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions