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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Actually Palm's position is precisely that all aGPS is standalone. I have an email to that end.
    Did you ever share that? I don't recall see it.

    Please point out where Palm states this, as their explanation of how to enable standalone GPS states quite the opposite. It explicitly states that you must be connected to a network to start GPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Palm has never used the term "initialization" and they wouldn't because for legal reasons that would be a total admission that standalone doesn't work.
    Palm may not have used the term initialization, but they stated as much in their FAQ.

    Turn on the cellular radio (press and hold the red button) to acquire the system time from the network. This is necessary to acquire the first GPS location fix.
    Sounds a lot like initialization to me.

    Main Entry: ini·tial·ize
    Pronunciation: \-ˌlīz\
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): ini·tial·ized; ini·tial·iz·ing
    Date: 1957
    : to set (as a computer program counter) to a starting position, value, or configuration
    — ini·tial·i·za·tion \i-ˌni-sh(ə-)lə-ˈzā-shən\ noun



    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Wrong.Garmin, Lowrance and Magellan don't really on network connectivity to work. Palm does.
    Which has absolutely zero bearing on the definition of GPS and aGPS.

    Nor does it have any bearing on the fact that all those companies use essentially the same definition. Just because they don't use assisted GPS doesn't mean they don't know what it means.

    Oh, and don't forget that Garmin actually supports GPS for Palm. So I guess it is important for them to know the difference.
    http://store.palm.com/sm-palm-gps-na...i-2939045.html





    And for those wondering why system time is so important to finding that first GPS signal, Wikipedia has a very in depth explanation:

    Correcting a GPS receiver's clock
    The method of calculating position for the case of no errors has been explained. One of the most important errors is the error in the GPS receiver clock. Because of the very large value of c, the speed of light, the estimated distances from the GPS receiver to the satellites, the pseudoranges, are very sensitive to errors in the GPS receiver clock. This seems to suggest that an extremely accurate and expensive clock is required for the GPS receiver to work. On the other hand, manufacturers would like to make an inexpensive GPS receiver which can be mass marketed. The manufacturers were thus faced with a difficult design problem. The technique that solves this problem is based on the way sphere surfaces intersect in the GPS problem.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Please point out where Palm states this, as their explanation of how to enable standalone GPS states quite the opposite. It explicitly states that you must be connected to a network to start GPS.
    Right, their explanation of how their standalone GPS works is that it must be in aGPS, NON standalone to work

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Nor does it have any bearing on the fact that all those companies use essentially the same definition. Just because they don't use assisted GPS doesn't mean they don't know what it means.
    That is a strange statement. You stated their defintion of aGPS was the same and then you gave a standalone definition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    And for those wondering why system time is so important to finding that first GPS signal, Wikipedia has a very in depth explanation:
    And for those who wish to think about it -- Standalone means the system time is acquired from the SATELLITES, soemthing 800w cant do because it isn't standalone.

    A cheap gps puck can get the system time from satellites, a $80 gps can get it, but of course that is part of the definition of being standalone:
    "Standalone mode is important. This means you do not need the carrier network at all to use GPS and usually you can install any GPS mapping software to boot. "
    GPS vs. aGPS: A Quick Tutorial
    http://wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs..._tutorial.html
    (the "at all" is actually emphasized by the author not me!)
    Last edited by aero; 10/19/2008 at 07:27 PM.
  3. #23  
    *sigh* This is utterly pointless.

    Darnell and Aero, you're obviously bound and determined to keep stating that the 800w is not a standalone GPS device. Okay, now pay attention:

    I do not and have never considered the 800w to be a standalone GPS device. Hence my "open letter" (if you will) on the Palm forums. The hours of chatting and calling them (both their tech support and corporate). Dozens of hours of investigation into how the GPS actually functions, what drivers it uses, reg keys, etc. Tracking down Palm engineers private e-mail addresses and having conversations with them.


    Got it? Okay, moving on.


    The problem with GPS is in initialization. It is not in the operation. There is a difference. Just like your car has a difference between starting and running (and in fact uses two separate motors to do so).

    Palm's FAQ clearly explains that the 800w must be within service to start GPS. Once you've started GPS you can operate GPS regardless if the radio is on/off, your in/out of service, etc.

    This is exactly how my phone functions. I've talked with several other people with 800w's, and every one of them has the same exact functionality.

    You can argue definitions until the cows come home. It won't change the way it works. And it won't change the fact that Palm's FAQ is spot on with the operation of the phone.




    If you guys can't understand that, well...guess that's too bad. I'll actually keep trying to work on a fix, rather than picking at semantics, putting words in people's mouths, and claiming the sky is not blue.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post

    What proof do you have that the 800w does not operate as described in Palm's FAQ?
    The standard is NOT Palm's (I feel bogus) definition and FAQ, but what true stand alone GPS is, given the device was advertised to do GPS and aGPS.

    Lowrance's definition of GPS says nothing about a cellular network signal. I rest my case.
  5. #25  
    Can someone look into hacking the 800w into thinking it has the network time even when there is no signal? Is that what it would take to get true GPS and put this issue to bed?
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    Can someone look into hacking the 800w into thinking it has the network time even when there is no signal? Is that what it would take to get true GPS and put this issue to bed?
    The fake time given to it would have to be exactly as accurate as the network time or I think it would totally screw up the GPS' bearings. It uses that time to calculate position.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The standard is NOT Palm's (I feel bogus) definition and FAQ, but what true stand alone GPS is, given the device was advertised to do GPS and aGPS.
    That does not answer my question.



    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Lowrance's definition of GPS says nothing about a cellular network signal. I rest my case.
    Oooh, you're right! Based on Lowrance's definition aGPS doesn't exist!

    However, Lowrance's definition of standalone GPS *IS* the exact same as Palm's. At least in meaning/essence.


    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    Can someone look into hacking the 800w into thinking it has the network time even when there is no signal? Is that what it would take to get true GPS and put this issue to bed?
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The fake time given to it would have to be exactly as accurate as the network time or I think it would totally screw up the GPS' bearings. It uses that time to calculate position.
    Darnell is right on this. It has to be accurate to the second and probably the millisecond.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post

    Darnell is right on this. It has to be accurate to the second and probably the millisecond.
    Yes, I suppose it does. I like your other thread on this topic. It certainly got me thinking.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    *sigh* This is utterly pointless.

    Darnell and Aero, you're obviously bound and determined to keep stating that the 800w is not a standalone GPS device.
    I think you have it backwards, there are about 25 people stating it is not standalone and it is only you and Palm saying it is.

    What is with the posting of "sighing" and "rollseyes"? We could be doing that to you when you condescendingly posted to Darnell that Palm uses a the same "definition" as Garmin which is a 100% false statement that you could not back up.

    You are the one relying a classic "Distinction without a difference" : For example nearly every false adverting ever made could be denied as false adverting by the illogical process you are asserting. EG I sell an airplane I say can fly. It has no engines. I explain that if you drop it from another airplane it will fly. It just needs to be "initialized" by beginning 30,000 above sea level!

    As far as the network time, you seem to be missing the basic point that actual standalone GPS phones get it direct from gps satellites. What Palm did with the 800w is force it to get it from the tower instead. The tower is getting it from the satellites! The 800W will only get it second hand, meaning it can't work standalone.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The fake time given to it would have to be exactly as accurate as the network time or I think it would totally screw up the GPS' bearings. It uses that time to calculate position.
    It is actually 1/100 of a millisecond for GPS. The most expensive and cheapest GPS devices normally pull this direct form satellite.
    Last edited by aero; 10/20/2008 at 06:20 AM.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Oooh, you're right! Based on Lowrance's definition aGPS doesn't exist!.
    Strawman. You are the one who referred to the Lowrance supposed definition of aGPS vs standalone GPS.

    The definitions one finds on the web when contrasting to agps and standalone gps say:

    "Standalone - Your handset has no connection to the network, and uses only the GPS satellite signals it can currently receive to try and establish a location".
    Standalone mode is important. This means you do not need the carrier network at all to use GPS and usually you can install any GPS mapping software to boot.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post

    You are the one relying a classic "Distinction without a difference" : For example nearly every false adverting ever made could be denied as false adverting by the illogical process you are asserting. EG I sell an airplane I say can fly. It has no engines. I explain that if you drop it from another airplane it will fly. It just needs to be "initialized" by beginning 30,000 above sea level!
    Exactly, and then I get a question that is on par with asking "well what's wrong with the definition provided that mentions the plane has to be initialized at 30,000 above sea level, did they lie in their definition?" As if I'd dignify that with a response. I should be the one doing this ->

    As far as the network time, you seem to be missing the basic point that actual standalone GPS phones get it direct from gps satellites. What Palm did with the 800w is force it to get it from the tower instead. The tower is getting it from the satellites! The 800W will only get it second hand, meaning it can't work standalone.
    If you can't stand in the middle of any part of the world with a clear reach of 3+ GPS sats and get the thing working, it's not stand alone GPS. All the banter about initialization does not change the fact the Treo 800w is functionally USELESS, to someone needing GPS when they're outside of a Sprint signal and trying to get home.


    It is actually 1/100 of a millisecond for GPS. The most expensive and cheapest GPS devices normally pull this direct form satellite.
    Yea, I'm just saying that whatever method might be used to "fool" the Treo 800w's GPS into thinking it already had the network time would have to be very accurate. I just wanted to point out that it can't be fed any arbitrary time.

    Aero, Ebag333 made the case for us when he mentioned himself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post

    Of course the definition was added and was an afterthought.
    ...
    He goes on from there with his view of it, but the bottom line is that Palm's statement is an add-on, that most Treo 800w buyers will never see. They'll still see the big advertised specs on Palm.com that don't directly link to their (I feel bogus) KB article and says:
    GPS Built-in GPS (standalone and assisted); Sprint Navigation; GPS-powered local search, maps, and navigation from the Today screen
    And those buyers will feel the term standalone should meet the societal standard definition you mentioned:
    "Standalone - Your handset has no connection to the network, and uses only the GPS satellite signals it can currently receive to try and establish a location".
    And they'll want that during GPS initialization when outside of a Sprint signal, not what I feel is a spin document!

    So there's not much need for me to keep back and forth with Ebag333. And Ebag333 knows that I figure he'll probably make a fix for this before Palm ever comes up with one. And hey, I wish Ebag333 the best in his efforts. If I can contribute more than telling Ebag333 what he already knows I will .

    Ebag333 is certainly a scholar, he certainly knows his away around the innards of a Treo better than myself and I respect him. But that does not mean we'll always see everything the same and that does not mean Ebag333 is always right. So we have to simply be disagreed and hopefully keep it respectful.
  12. #32  
    The GPS is not standalone because it specifically requires Sprints towers to work.

    If Sprint ceased to be- the device would cease to work as a GPS.

    No other cellular proivders towers can currnetly take the information it requires to start the GPS.

    Yes, you may be ready for an uphill battle to return your phone over this issue- but if you feel strongly about it, it's an issue worth fighting.
    Regardless of Palm's later schlock definition- I purchased this phone when it was advertised as Standalone and Assisted GPS.

    There was no further information as to how standalone is/isn't defined.
    Believe me.

    It's going back.
    I'll try the touch pro.
    ... and a BBB complaint has been filed with Palm.

    Best luck everyone.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    For example nearly every false adverting ever made could be denied as false adverting by the illogical process you are asserting. EG I sell an airplane I say can fly. It has no engines. I explain that if you drop it from another airplane it will fly. It just needs to be "initialized" by beginning 30,000 above sea level!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider

    I guess that's not considered a plane, nor does it fly.



    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    As far as the network time, you seem to be missing the basic point that actual standalone GPS phones get it direct from gps satellites. What Palm did with the 800w is force it to get it from the tower instead. The tower is getting it from the satellites! The 800W will only get it second hand, meaning it can't work standalone.
    The 800w does get it from the satellites. Just not for the very first timestamp (initialization). As I've said plenty of times before, I've traveled literally hundreds of miles off network with the GPS acquiring new satellites along the way. The only way to do that is if it's pulling the data off the satellites. I've now tested that 'theory' 4 different times with trips ranging from 60 miles to over 100 miles, as well as numerous shorter trips.

    Other devices have had similar issues, for example many HTC devices that are GPS only (no aGPS) take 10+ minutes to acquire the satellites (I've read of people taking 30+ minutes at times). By dropping the GPS data file in the \Windows\ directory and having a current (and correct) network time, they cut that time down to 30 seconds or less. (And it doesn't appear that the 800w uses the same file as they use, though I haven't fully investigated that yet.)




    Quote Originally Posted by grant516 View Post
    The GPS is not standalone because it specifically requires Sprints towers to work.

    If Sprint ceased to be- the device would cease to work as a GPS.

    No other cellular proivders towers can currnetly take the information it requires to start the GPS.
    Not true. I've initialized the GPS off Verizon's network.

    The GPS is not stand alone because it requires network time to initialize. If all CDMA cellular companies went out of business, THEN it would cease to work as a GPS.

    There have been a few times I was not able to initialize the GPS while roaming, but those were on *VERY* old towers out in the middle of nowhere.
  14. #34  
    This thread should have been locked. Should we do another battery thread to?
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    This thread should have been locked. Should we do another battery thread to?
    Yes, please fire up another battery thread.

    And we're short on threads about 3.5mm audio jacks, so feel free to make another of those too .

    I think the mods should make a closed GPS thread a sticky and then people can read up on it without making another post about it.
  16. #36  
    Ebag333 - While you've gone 100 miles off Sprint's network after initiating GPS within Sprint's network, most people report going 5-10 minutes off Sprint's network and losing their connection. Meaning most people may end up momentarily losing their GPS connection and needing to reinitialize once outside of Sprint's network and be unable to do so. The average being about 5-10 minutes off Sprint's network, although you've gone 100 miles. I guess if everyone kept a clear line of sight they'd be as successful as you, but it seems most are unable to do it. Making the Treo 800w GPS useless off Sprint's network for most.

    You've been able to get a GPS lock while roaming before (and I've seen only one other person mention they've successfully done the same), many have been unable to do that. Again, this makes the Treo 800w GPS functionally useless for many while roaming, given the GPS does not work as a true stand alone GPS.

    And we know the thing totally does not work with any carriers outside of the USA. I don't see anyone claiming they got a GPS lock with any non-US based carrier's signal (CDMA or otherwise) and we know Aero has been outside the country to test.

    You speak of stand alone GPS initialization as such a lengthy hassle. Having used stand alone GPS, I've found the wait usually is not very long at all. If not for the benefits of traffic updates and not having to keep maps on the device, depending on the device's GPS strength I'd prefer GPS over aGPS. If the only advantage for aGPS is initialization time. If a device is always taking a very long time to initialize stand alone GPS, it's an indication that the GPS in the device is very weak. And I highly suspect IF the Treo 800w's GPS can be fixed and is fixed, the power of it's stand alone GPS may become an issue of concern. Especially since, other than you Ebag333, many got 5-10 minutes off Sprint's network and lose their GPS, they don't get a pickup from Verizon, they lose their GPS.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333 - While you've gone 100 miles off Sprint's network after initiating GPS within Sprint's network, most people report going 5-10 minutes off Sprint's network and losing their connection. Meaning most people may end up momentarily losing their GPS connection and needing to reinitialize once outside of Sprint's network and be unable to do so.
    While it's certainly the metaphoric kiss of death if you lose your GPS signal completely, I've lost it for up to 5 minutes and been able to reacquire it with no issues.

    I've also spoken to half a dozen people in depth about it who have had the exact same results as me (granted not as heavily tested). The only person who has posted in depth about losing his signal was Aero, and he was the one who bricked his GPS messing with settings.


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    If a device is always taking a very long time to initialize stand alone GPS, it's an indication that the GPS in the device is very weak. And I highly suspect IF the Treo 800w's GPS can be fixed and is fixed, the power of it's stand alone GPS may become an issue of concern.

    As far as length of initialization goes, the way it initializes is far more important than the sensitivity...not power/strength, GPS antenna's don't transmit anything and thus have no "strength".

    The 800w's GPS is as sensitive as my GPS puck is. When I can maintain 6-8 satellite signals through very rugged terrain (we're talking 3-5 thousand elevation drops in less than 30 miles as the crow flies), I have no concerns what-so-ever about the sensitivity of the antenna. Even at the bottom of very steep valleys with lots of tree's to block the signal I had 6 satellites.

    Anyway, if you read a bit of how GPS functions (Wikipedia is a good start) you'll see that there are several different ways of determining where to find the GPS satellites from a cold start. Some of them are very efficient, some are not. In order for them to be efficient, however, the biggest key componant is....yup...system time.

    Different companies use different methods. Some are better than others.
  18. #38  
    Ebag333, more than Aero have disagreed with you on the experiences when leaving a Sprint signal, but I'm not going to dig all that up.

    But regardless of if everyone had experiences exactly like yours. It still leaves for a device that does not have stand alone GPS and a statement from Palm that introduced a definition that is not only foreign to many, but unacceptable for those who purchased the device based on it's claims of having stand alone GPS. So for the customers buying the Treo 800w, because they see "standalone" in the GPS specs and have a real immediate need for it, it's not what they paid for. It's not what any of us paid for, given standalone was in the specs for us all.

    And it is why we will continually see new threads like this one made. Because despite all the wordsmithing by Palm, their definition is totally unacceptable. It was in my opinion contrived to suit the fact the device was found to have a defective GPS. And wordsmithing is cheaper than honoring returns by a mass of disgruntled customers.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider

    I guess that's not considered a plane, nor does it fly.
    You made my point exactly. If you were to sell a Cessna as a fully functioning plane and the buyer found it had no engine, you would point to wikipedia for glider? OK that clarifies you view.

    The fact is the parsing out of "initialization" means Palm could sell a combo CDMA AND GSM Treo, and when users were to find the GSM would not work without "initializing" on CDMA before accessing GSM eachg time, you would say GSM works, it just has a trivial requirement to be in CDMA each hour or so?

    Standalone GSM on the 800W has a purpose. To be able to use it where there is no CDMA.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333, more than Aero have disagreed with you on the experiences when leaving a Sprint signal, but I'm not going to dig all that up.
    No one other than Aero has gone in depth on what exactly happened (at least that I've seen). A simple "it didn't work" doesn't really mean much, especially when taking into account that when many of those posts/threads were made no one knew exactly how the GPS worked. (How many people pointed out that standalone GPS did work, before we figured out that it was picking up the network time before the phone was shut off?)


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    But regardless of if everyone had experiences exactly like yours. It still leaves for a device that does not have stand alone GPS and a statement from Palm that introduced a definition that is not only foreign to many, but unacceptable for those who purchased the device based on it's claims of having stand alone GPS. So for the customers buying the Treo 800w, because they see "standalone" in the GPS specs and have a real immediate need for it, it's not what they paid for. It's not what any of us paid for, given standalone was in the specs for us all.
    Again, I don't disagree.

    The 800w is NOT standalone when looked at as a whole. It is only when you get BEYOND the entire device into the way the device actually functions that you see differently.

    Palm's definitions on their site are correct (as far as defining what standalone and what assisted is). Palm's explanation of how the 800w's GPS functions is technically correct.

    You may feel that there is a conflict between their FAQ and their spec pages, and I feel that there is. That doesn't somehow magically make the device function differently, or mean that when Palm explains how the device functions that explanation is wrong.

    The way the device functions may be (and indeed is) at odds with the specs or how Palm promised the device should function. But there's a big difference between how the device actually functions and how it should function, and your claiming that Palm's FAQ is "bogus" because it describes how the device ACTUALLY functions instead of it claiming how the device SHOULD function is just flat out wrong.


    Let me put it to you this way, if Palm instead put up a FAQ saying "The 800w's GPS is completely standalone as per our specs" you would be calling bloody murder claiming (with just cause) that Palm's FAQ is a flat out lie, because the 800w is not standalone.

    Instead Palm puts up a FAQ that says specifically that the 800w GPS is NOT standalone, but has the capability of functioning off network (which is all completely true to how the device actually functions).....and you call that bogus. Yes there is a conflict. Palm's FAQ does not at any point in time claim that the device is standalone. The *ONLY* claim I've seen as such (post release) comes from Aero's mystery letter which he refuses to post.


    Palm's FAQ does not mean that the company is not working on a solution. And in fact we have had quite a few different rumors about that (including what I've heard directly from a Palm engineer, which I only call a "rumor" because he's not part of that development team).



    You keep stating that Palm's definition is incorrect. Okay, fair enough. Please point out the part of the following definition that's incorrect:

    What's the difference?

    GPS (non-assisted, or stand-alone) gets its location data from satellites orbiting above the earth. When you first turn on the GPS function, there will be a delay while the GPS device searches for satellites. The wait time is exacerbated by poor signal conditions, such as when you're surrounded by tall buildings, you're indoors, or you're under trees. In addition, when first turned on in these conditions, some non-assisted GPS units may not be able to download the almanac and ephemeris information from the GPS satellites, rendering them unable to function until a clear signal can be received continuously for up to one minute.

    A-GPS gets its location data from nearby cellular towers, who in turn get their data from a constant connection to GPS satellites. The towers keep track of satellites in range, so your phone can ping the tower and know which satellites to try to connect to, speeding up the process greatly.
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