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  1. sooby77's Avatar
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       #1  
    Hello all,

    I kept reading questions about standalone GPS. It's clear that many have no clue what it is about. The link below points to the very excellent site (gpspassion.com) that explains what AGPS is all about. This should clarify most of your questions.

    Although the post in this link is about the different chipsets that available for AGPS, the explanation on the first paragraph still apply.

    http://www.gpspassion.com/forumsen/t...TOPIC_ID=47602

    In short, AGPS is a TRUE AND STANDALONE GPS. The "A" part of AGPS is for "Assisted." Downloading the file speeds up signal acquisition in poor conditions. With phones being connected to the Internet, why not use this ability to help speed up signal acquisition? Even without an Internet connection, your GPS will still work, but acquisition time is slower under not so ideal condition.

    Hope this is helpful.
    Last edited by sooby77; 09/12/2008 at 08:47 PM.
  2. dave75's Avatar
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    #2  
    The 800w was advertised to have standalone gps which means it does not require a wireless network to use the gps. People have tried to use it without the Sprint network and it doesn't work. That's what we're trying to figure out, whether the Pro will work without network assistance.
    Last edited by dave75; 09/12/2008 at 09:58 PM.
  3. sooby77's Avatar
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       #3  
    I think the reason the 800W has all these issues have to do with the CDMA implementation of the aGPS and E911. On one of the earlier videos on the 800W, I notice that the GPS locked in, in about 5 seconds.

    That's a sure indication that it's using the cell tower to help it lock in. GPS do not normally lock in that fast, unless it already locked in and just been turned off.

    I'm not sure how GSM networks implement aGPS and E911.
  4. dave75's Avatar
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    #4  
    Yes, the 800w was advertised to have assisted and standalone gps but only the assisted part works. And assisted is great if you have a network to assist, but if you go to a place where you are off network, the gps no longer works. The Pro was advertised as "assisted and standalone" until yesterday. Now the specs for the Pro say "GPS Built-in".
  5. #5  
    It would have been nice if someone had saved that webpage before they changed it.
    They did something similar with the 800.
    It's not really a clincher for me, I just get a kick out of either the deceit or stupidity.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by sooby77 View Post
    I think the reason the 800W has all these issues have to do with the CDMA implementation of the aGPS and E911.
    Wrong. Try using a Q9c, Mogul or Touch sometime. 100% perfect aGPS, standalone GPS and E911.

    The Treo Pro is confirmed to have both modes of GPS.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by sooby77 View Post
    Hello all,

    I kept reading questions about standalone GPS. It's clear that many have no clue what it is about...
    Might also want to read this:

    http://wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by sooby77 View Post
    In short, AGPS is a TRUE AND STANDALONE GPS. The "A" part of AGPS is for "Assisted." Downloading the file speeds up signal acquisition in poor conditions. With phones being connected to the Internet, why not use this ability to help speed up signal acquisition? .
    I think you very much misunderstood the post in GPSPASSION. Most of us commenting have a very good understanding to the A in aGPS.

    Where are you getting that the article says "AGPS is a TRUE AND STANDALONE GPS"? Guillerme (aka GPSPASSION himself) hasn't and would not say such a thing.

    So the issue is not why not use the "internet" (?) (more specifically the terrestrial towers), which aGPS uses, the issue is if it is "Standalone GPS" which means it can function without accessing terrestrial towers.

    Quote Originally Posted by sooby77 View Post
    I kept reading questions about standalone GPS. It's clear that many have no clue what it is about.
    Really, Since you didn't post an article about standalone GPS (and you wont find the term standalone in the entire thread from which you drew it), and seem to have conflated standalone GPS with aGPS yourself, I would suggest a bit more reading.

    Maletesta has a very good piece discussing the various modalities of aGPS.

    Standalone GPS of course does not require terrestrial towers and at this point since the 800w does, yet is prominently advertised as having "and Standalone GPS", this function is not properly working on the 800w.

    A lot of threads became repetitious specifically because of the problem your conclusion illustrates. It is an erroneous conflation of aGPS with standalone.

    To put it simply aGPS is a combination of tower data and sat data. Standalone GPS is sat data and requires no tower data.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    It would have been nice if someone had saved that webpage before they changed it.
    They did something similar with the 800.
    It's not really a clincher for me, I just get a kick out of either the deceit or stupidity.
    On the 800w what made me raw was a slew of different answers from Palm. I was told it definitely would work out of range of Sprint and overseas, and when I tried it and reported it then they said maybe not. I've been told it is impossible to fix due to license restrictions, and I have read it has been "presented to engineering."

    It isn't so much of the bug being present, it was the runaround, and that the term which has a very specific meaning, was advertised so prominently

    Also the title of the post "aGPS explained" and the commentary incorrectly defining standalone as aGPS is exactly the patronizing response I got from Palm after giving specific testing data.
  10. sooby77's Avatar
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       #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    So the issue is not why not use the "internet" (?) (more specifically the terrestrial towers), which aGPS uses, the issue is if it is "Standalone GPS" which means it can function without accessing terrestrial towers.
    Let me clarify what I mean by standalone. It may be different from you you have in mind. All the literatures I have read indicated that the initial lock (TTFF) benefits from being assisted by ephemeris data downloaded from a server, or through cell tower id. If without network/cell assist, it is still usable but at a slower TTFF.

    However, once it's locked in, the GPS can function all by itself without the need to access the network anymore. This ability to function once locked in, without network assistance anymore is what I meant by 'standalone'. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

    I believe that most if not all Qualcomm GPSOne solutions are true standalone GPS chipset, and it's only being assisted due of the need to overcome satellite reception issues on the phone itself (due to lack of space for optimal antennae placement). It ought to be able to work without net assist, but at a much slower TTFF.

    Malatesta, your article quote info from WIKI pages. Is there an original source for the 4 GPS modes that you mentioned? I don't see it in that WIKI page? Perhaps in Qualcomm's website?
  11. #11  
    Sooby. I appreciate what you are saying, but if you had read other threads you would know that the problem is

    Quote Originally Posted by sooby77 View Post
    It ought to be able to work without net assist, but at a much slower TTFF.?
    But doesn't. This isn't a only a matter of tall building narrow street urban environments, or indoors, where aGPS helps, but under absolutely perfect GPS situations where you can't get a lock if you sit with your 800w under a perfect clear night sky on top of a mountain in Arizona for hours (or on top of any city building in the world outside of the US).

    I don't understand your usage of TTFF. If you are in a rural no cdma area, or our of the country your TTFF=infinity. It isn't a long TTFF -- GPS reception is disabled.

    As far as antenna, on the 800w I have had Palm tell me the stylus is plastic to "avoid interference with the GPS antenna."

    Here is the thing. A lot of people can't fathom the utility for them for actual standalone. I understand that. But for a certain number of users this is important. Palm did not passively suggest its presence onm the 800w, they activly promoted it as a primary feature.

    For analogy a lot of users ask: who needs wifi? Well what if wifi could work faster and or better with a cdma connection. Would you accept it if Palm decided to adopt an implementation where the wifi was disabled without a cdma connection first?

    What characterizes these feature rich devices such as the 800w and its competitors is the fact that a big chunk of features have nothing to do with having a cdma connection to the carrier. MP3 playback doesn't and the devices are being touted (legitimately) as a selling point as replacements for redundant dedicated mp3 players such as iPod. The camera doesn't require a connection. Because of Wifi web browsing and email can be done with no cdma connection.

    So respectfully what you are describing, and what the 800w has, at this point is not Standalone GPS, it is aGPS. Standalone requires only satellites. aGPS uses both. One cannot say aGPS is standalone because it uses sats, when aGPS does that per se already. That is why there is a problem with the 800w advertising material prominently stating "aGPS and Standalone GPS."

    Please peruse the wikipedia definition of aGPS, you are describing as standalone what in fact is aGPS and not standalone.

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