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  1. #21  
    As I said earlier, you can't select POP/IMAP in ActiveSync.

    Can you show me where half the stuff WM does is documented? Good luck.

    And the fact that people have been complaining about it for a long time simply lends credence to the idea that it's simply poor design, not a bug.

    The way I see it, you could classify this either way. Poor design, or a bug. The very fact that it's not an 800w specific issue makes me lean towards leaving it off the list.

    Tell you what. I'll put it on the list. But I'm going to include the caveat that it's just poor design.
  2.    #22  
    Can you show me where half the stuff WM does is documented? Good luck.
    I've found documentation for more than less that I've looked for. If not in the 800w documentation on MS's site or other online sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    And the fact that people have been complaining about it for a long time simply lends credence to the idea that it's simply poor design, not a bug.


    Tell you what. I'll put it on the list. But I'm going to include the caveat that it's just poor design.
    Hey you do whatever you want. To me (and others citing it as a "problem") it's a long standing bug.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    To me (and others citing it as a "problem") it's a long standing bug.
    Think about what you're saying though.

    "When I tell ActiveSync to manually sync, it syncs my e-mail, which is set to only sync when I tell ActiveSync to manually sync."


    As I've said before, ActiveSync handles e-mail syncing. Not tmail.exe (which does the bulk of the work for poutlook, for e-mails, sms, and mms) and not poutlook.exe (which is just the gui/wrapper).

    The fact that you can't disable AS from syncing e-mail is poor design, but the lack of an option is not a bug.

    The fact that "others citing it as a problem" means nothing. Tons of people call a weak stylus a "bug". Lots of people say that the poor battery life is a "bug". Heck, a few people have even suggested that the paint coming off on the 5 way is a "bug".

    I'm extremely aware of the fine line between "bad design" and "bug". I've worked for Software Dev companies before, as well as being deeply involved in quite a few different software projects. Heck, I have to deal with that all the time here as I work on RealVGA and whatnot. The issue with AS as you've described it is simply not a bug.

    And as I've said before, even if it was a bug, it's not something that Palm can fix. The primary purpose of the bug list is to list issues that Palm can address. There's limited use in listing non-Palm issues, which is why the very first requirement on the bug list is:

    Bugs need to be specific to the 800w. In other words, not bugs with ActiveSync, XP, Vista, or third party software.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Think about what you're saying though.

    "When I tell ActiveSync to manually sync, it syncs my e-mail, which is set to only sync when I tell ActiveSync to manually sync."
    That's not what I said, that's a statement you've made up yourself and put quotation marks around. I said I don't have anything set for mail to sync through ActiveSync at all and ActiveSync downloads POP3 e-mail for an account that is set to download manually. Doing something I've never requested be done. Something never done in Palm OS devices, something not done in Blackberries and likely not in IPhones either.

    I download web pages manually, none download via Pocket IE when I use ActiveSync. I download podcasts manually, none download when I use ActiveSync. I download e-mail manually, but its downloading on its own initiative when ActiveSync starts. A closed mail program is starting up and downloading mail never requested.

    Unexpected behavior, behavior I never requested, a bug.

    The fact that you can't disable AS from syncing e-mail is poor design, but the lack of an option is not a bug.
    Bugs often are born from design flaws.

    The fact that "others citing it as a problem" means nothing. Tons of people call a weak stylus a "bug". Lots of people say that the poor battery life is a "bug". Heck, a few people have even suggested that the paint coming off on the 5 way is a "bug".
    Well there are some issues that are bugs which you deny to be such.

    I'm extremely aware of the fine line between "bad design" and "bug". I've worked for Software Dev companies before, as well as being deeply involved in quite a few different software projects. Heck, I have to deal with that all the time here as I work on RealVGA and whatnot. The issue with AS as you've described it is simply not a bug.
    You think you're the only one that does SW development?

    And as I've said before, even if it was a bug, it's not something that Palm can fix. The primary purpose of the bug list is to list issues that Palm can address. There's limited use in listing non-Palm issues, which is why the very first requirement on the bug list is:
    It is a bug and never has been documented as a feature by the product manufacturer or OS maker. As I said, you can do whatever you like with your list, I'm out that thread you've made.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    As I said earlier, you can't select POP/IMAP in ActiveSync.

    Can you show me where half the stuff WM does is documented? Good luck.

    And the fact that people have been complaining about it for a long time simply lends credence to the idea that it's simply poor design, not a bug.

    The way I see it, you could classify this either way. Poor design, or a bug. The very fact that it's not an 800w specific issue makes me lean towards leaving it off the list.

    Tell you what. I'll put it on the list. But I'm going to include the caveat that it's just poor design.
    Ebag, I'm not coming down on one side or the other on this particular activesync issue, just relaying some personal experience:

    I've worked for a number of startups where the phrases "It's not a bug, it's a feature" or "It's not a bug, it's a design issue" would pretty much guarantee a visit from a sales exec or the CEO who would then proceed to tear you a new one. Primarily because customers don't care about such semantic distinctions and if the product isn't doing what they expect or want, they tend to vote with their checkbook.

    But anyways, back to the debate...
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I said I don't have anything set for mail to sync through ActiveSync at all
    If you have mail setup on your device, it syncs through ActiveSync (AS on the phone, not referring to AS on the PC). Even if you have it set to sync manually, it still goes through AS.

    It's just that simple.


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    As I said, you can do whatever you like with your list, I'm out that thread you've made.
    Sorry to see you leave the thread because of a single disagreement. You could have really helped improve the list.


    Quote Originally Posted by zbop View Post
    I've worked for a number of startups where the phrases "It's not a bug, it's a feature" or "It's not a bug, it's a design issue" would pretty much guarantee a visit from a sales exec or the CEO who would then proceed to tear you a new one. Primarily because customers don't care about such semantic distinctions and if the product isn't doing what they expect or want, they tend to vote with their checkbook.
    I completely understand that, which is why I've included it in the bug list, along with the distinction that it's simply the way that ActiveSync works, and not really a bug.

    At the same time I've been on the flip side where our sales team has called the way the application functions (and is designed to function) a bug, and informed our customer that we'll fix it. Oooh, THAT one's fun.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post

    Sorry to see you leave the thread because of a single disagreement. You could have really helped improve the list.

    No it's not because of a single disagreement. It's because of several. Some I and I'm sure other have not even bothered to mention, after seeing how you've handled things with others.

    Simply attributing something to "that's just the way it is" does not mean it's not a long standing bug. Bugs, even if not called bugs are more costly to fix once a product is out the door.

    The Treo 800w, running Windows Mobile, any Windows Mobile bug is also a Treo 800w bug.

    This ends my discussion with you about the matter. You can have the last word.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    At the same time I've been on the flip side where our sales team has called the way the application functions (and is designed to function) a bug, and informed our customer that we'll fix it. Oooh, THAT one's fun.
    Yeah, I think I know that guy...

    All I was saying is that past a certain point, the discussion is purely academic. If you are putting together a bug list as a general source of information for 800w users, then I think it should be included. If you are putting together a bug list for Palm to address, then okay I can see why you would filter this.

    [RANT]
    However, since everyone seems so enamored with Palm's special sauce around here, I would say that the minute they opened the door to making changes that are NOT specific to a platform port, they've opened the door to fixing more than just the 800w specific bugs. If they can go around modifying software that is not required for a port, why can't they go fixing the software as well. Once again, customers don't care about the tiered or splintered platform model (HTC, Palm, Sprint, Microsoft), they just want it to work.
    [/RANT]
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