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  1. DHart's Avatar
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    #521  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    In short Palm doesn't -- Sprint does. Sprint sets the real price the final discounted price. Sprint does about 90% of the advertising and marketing on phones. They define the product.

    The Pre is the marketing replacement for the Instinct, the "fat middle" device aimed at profitiablee customers that might jump to iphone.

    The Pro is aimed at top level business users. It will be priced higher and likely sell more units in 2009

    Well, you just have all the answers, don't you? You don't think Palm has some final input into the sell through price of the phone through their dealers? I sure would if I were Palm.

    And do you really think Palm is going to allow a dealer to "define" their product? I wouldn't allow that if I were Palm.

    All I am saying is that if I am a customer walking in to get a new phone and I see two smartphones with a not so large difference in pricing, but one has much greater capability than the other, I might choose the much better phone with a slightly higher price. Of course there are other factors also. But this scenario could present a problem for Palm.

    Someone else in this thread suggested they could just lower the cost of the Pro. Exactly my point and exactly the problem.

    But maybe I'm just wrong.
  2. #522  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    Well, you just have all the answers, don't you? You don't think Palm has some final input into the sell through price of the phone through their dealers? I sure would if I were Palm.
    With pricing, the only input Palm has in it is the wholesale price, which Sprint may use in their decision (Sprint's decision) to determine their retail price. But Palm does not tell a retailer "you have to sell this for at least this much". Of course if you disagree, any evidence you're willing to present to show otherwise would be appreciated.

    I know from owning my own business and contacting Palm about resale of Treos, that the reseller buys at a certain wholesale price (Sprint probably gets a good wholesale price based on their buying volume) and from there the reseller decides the retail price on their own.
  3. #523  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    A little 3.5mm jack, a little working stand alone GPS, a little working BT that does not reset volume after every call, a little flush screen, a little more digital zoom on the camera, a little more battery life, a number of little applications that don't come built into the 800w (HTC streaming media player, HTC Task manager utility, perhaps QuickGPS, perhaps IE with flash working well).

    Just a little different.

    If my old WM Treo (800w) had all those little differences I've heard about in the Treo Pro I probably would still own a Treo.
    QuickGPS is not included on the STP.

    Lets talk about whats missing:

    Missing *TONS* of Palm's tweaks. (Talking about dozens of files filled with tweaks.)
    Missing Aces Texas Hold'em Limit
    Missing Astraware Sudoku
    Missing Palm's massive audio handling file (audiosettings.pm)
    Missing bluetooth printing
    Missing Palm's Custom Dialing Program
    Missing D3D Demo and Performance programs
    Missing dmo and dshow audio/video codecs
    Missing Palm Messaging
    Missing a lot of extra setting/control panels that Palm adds visibility to
    Missing Palm's Phone skin/dialer
    Missing Picsel Viewer
    Missing Palm's POI application
    Missing Palm's speed dial plugin
    Appears to be missing the drivers for video acceleration
    And how about the things that really matters:

    • Speed: No significant difference.
    • Memory: Significantly less (perhaps to the point of unusable)



    Those are the two biggest things that a con/prosumer notices. My wife doesn't care if her phone has GPS at all. But when it's slow she comes running to me. I've never gotten a call from my mom asking about headphone adapters or how to best listen to music. But I get a call at least once every couple weeks complaining that her phone is running slow again. (Both have 700wx's, and both tell people that they have the same phone as I do.)

    When it all boils down there's very few things that people care about, and it's summed up simply with "does it do what I want it to?" It doesn't matter how many features a phone has if it doesn't work well. Why do you think the Centro's fly off the shelves? They're very simple phones that lack a lot of the features of the advanced WM phones that we drool over. But...they work. Simple as that.

    And from that perspective, the 800w and Pro are nearly indistinguishable. Most people don't understand the difference between the 800w and the 700wx (or think that the differences are meaningful). What makes you think that the differences between the Pro and 800w are going to stand out any more?
  4. #524  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Most people don't understand the difference between the 800w and the 700wx (or think that the differences are meaningful). What makes you think that the differences between the Pro and 800w are going to stand out any more?
    Well than by that viewpoint there was no need to release the 800w.

    But I speak for myself in saying, what I've seen from the Treo Pro leaves me without shock that I'm seeing some 800w owners looking to move to the Treo Pro. Between what the 800w and Pro have or don't have, I much prefer what the Treo Pro has to offer.

    Sprint seems to see some value in the Treo Pro over the 800w, because they're testing pretty hard to make sure the Treo Pro is right to replace the 800w with it.
  5. #525  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well than by that viewpoint there was no need to release the 800w.
    Absolutely. One or the other, not both, would have been the smart move.

    Palm couldn't have gone between the 700wx's release and the (still unreleased) Pro. That would have been a three year turn around, something that's completely unacceptable.

    And by the time that Palm got the 800w sorted (after Sprint said no to the WM6 800w, and Verizon bailed at the last minute, all the way back in 2007), the Pro was already in the works and the deals had been made. So now they're committed to a bad situation.

    If they could have nixed the Pro, or released it in the first half of this year, then they would have been sitting pretty. But now they have two phones in a row that are not well recieved, the 800w which received some poor reviews and now the Pro which people generally just don't care much about.

    Palm's WM line is getting weaker with every day that the Pro's release date gets pushed back.

    I sometimes wonder why they even bother with the WM line of phones (especially now that they're outsourcing almost everything on them). I wonder if they will drop them completely in order to focus on their low end Palm OS and their high end WebSOS offerings. If I was running Palm, that's something I'd look at very strongly.
  6. #526  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    With pricing, the only input Palm has in it is the wholesale price, which Sprint may use in their decision (Sprint's decision) to determine their retail price. But Palm does not tell a retailer "you have to sell this for at least this much". Of course if you disagree, any evidence you're willing to present to show otherwise would be appreciated.

    I know from owning my own business and contacting Palm about resale of Treos, that the reseller buys at a certain wholesale price (Sprint probably gets a good wholesale price based on their buying volume) and from there the reseller decides the retail price on their own.
    Darnell's correct.

    The wholesale pricing has an effect on the phone, but ultimately Sprint sets the final price. They will often eat a large amount of that cost hoping to get it back on the contract.

    Almost universally carriers lose money each time they sell a phone. It's up to them how much they want to lose.
  7. #527  
    I think Sprint should have never released the 800w with Sprint and went straight with the Treo Pro with Sprint from the start. Going with Sprint selling the Treo Pro first and then making an unlocked GSM version later. The opposite of how Palm did it.
  8. #528  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I think Sprint should have never released the 800w with Sprint and went straight with the Treo Pro with Sprint from the start. Going with Sprint selling the Treo Pro first and then making an unlocked GSM version later. The opposite of how Palm did it.
    GSM phones traditionally come first, than the CDMA ones three to six months later. Why? I have no clue, but that's the way it works (and it seems to work that way across the board, HTC does the same thing).


    But even if the CMDA Pro was released first, you're still pushing three years for a new phone. The delay of the 800w pushed it out too far, and anything past a June release date would have been pretty much unacceptable.

    Had the Treo Pro been closer to being ready and been able to make Q1/Q2 2008, I have no doubt that Palm would have dropped the 800w completely. That would have been the only move that would have made sense. We know that they axed a bunch of other offerings they had in the works.

    The Pro was simply too far out to be viable. Palm needed a "bridge phone" to hold that gap, and unfortunately that bridge phone got pushed back farther than they wanted, which created the situation that they are in now.

    Remember, the 800w was originally slated for Q3 2007, which would have put the Pro at about 1 year out. The delay with the 800w wasn't really in Palm's control though, neither Verizon nor Sprint wanted another WM 6.0 phone with 6.1 right around the corner (a mistake on Palm's part not to go with 6.1 to start with).
  9. #529  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post

    But even if the CMDA Pro was released first, you're still pushing three years for a new phone. The delay of the 800w pushed it out too far, and anything past a June release date would have been pretty much unacceptable.
    If the 800w were never released and the Treo Pro were released with Sprint first instead of GSM, I feel they could have released in August 2008. Just as they released the GSM version in August of 2008, I'm just saying it should have been for Sprint release instead. That's about a month later than the 800w's mid July release.

    Palm has their prized Pre going to Sprint first, they should have done the same with the Treo Pro.
  10. #530  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    GSM phones traditionally come first, than the CDMA ones three to six months later. Why? I have no clue, but that's the way it works (and it seems to work that way across the board, HTC does the same thing).
    Palm, Apple and other US based device makers usually release with a carrier first.

    HTC likely goes unlocked GSM first because of their nation of origin.
  11. DHart's Avatar
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    #531  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    With pricing, the only input Palm has in it is the wholesale price, which Sprint may use in their decision (Sprint's decision) to determine their retail price. But Palm does not tell a retailer "you have to sell this for at least this much". Of course if you disagree, any evidence you're willing to present to show otherwise would be appreciated.

    I know from owning my own business and contacting Palm about resale of Treos, that the reseller buys at a certain wholesale price (Sprint probably gets a good wholesale price based on their buying volume) and from there the reseller decides the retail price on their own.
    So Palm sets the wholesale price and Sprint sets the retail. You don't think there is a relationship between the wholesale price that Palm offers to Sprint and the retail price that Sprint offers to the public?

    I don't have any special knowledge about their pricing practices (Palm or Sprint). But you can bet that Palm sets wholesale prices in anticipation of what the units will sell for at retail. And I don't accept that fact that you necessarily were given the same terms that Palm offered to Sprint. Perhaps you were given the same terms (not price), but your deal would not necessarily be the same as Sprint's.
  12. #532  
    Some guy named "Mo" over at BGR posted the following. Take it with a grain of salt but he at least sounds convincing.

    I'd love to believe the part about getting more RAM back in the Pro, but I'm not holding my breath (why would that hold up testing/certification on Sprint's network when the Mogul obviously passed? Or rather, it's not like it was a "bug" that no one knew about pre-release. It's like if Palm was shocked that the Treo Pro was black.)
    Pro Feb 22, March 1, 8 or 15
    It only depends on ongoing final testing of a Rom fix to allocate +/- 10 to 20 MB free memory. Pro is produced. Pro has passed FCC. It is in in stock stateside in one warehouse. 230,000 units. Production in China of additional stock has not halted. A new Rom has been developed to tighten default memory usage. It is now undergoing testing. Reflash by HTC contractors of 230,000 will take two days, mostly unpacking and repacking boxes. Reflash of stock coming off the line in China is easy.

    Pre June 15-30.
    Pre is not produced. Only about 200 alphas have left china. Production has not occurred. Beta has not occurred. Final physical specs have not been settled.

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  13. #533  
    They could be correct. And sad if they are correct on all points. Because while it's great HTC can flip over 200K units in 2 days, it's the 2nd point (Pre) that is a concern. If they really don't have Pre stock ready and really don't plan to release in June (if on time with the release) it means much of the "buzz" around Pre will have already past. Palm's competitors will already have their plans to compete further along. There's been continual talk about the HTC Touch Dual possibly becoming part of Sprint's lineup. Not that I find the HTC Touch Dual to be a better device than Pre, I don't. But it has a similar look as Pre in some respects and MicroSD expansion, so some people might consider it. I just mean the longer Pre takes to release, the more we'll see coming to try and take away from it. Palm's survival is on the line. They need to get their device the world is waiting for out the door.

    Malatesta, is it possible for you to link to your source for that quote you posted?
  14. CDG
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    #534  
    Sort of a related comment:

    To the best of my knowledge all the GTPs are made in Taiwan, I wonder why Palm changed vendors.
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    Palm Pilot > Palm IIIxe > Palm Vx > Palm Treo 750 > Palm Treo Pro > BB 9700.
  15. #535  
    Quote Originally Posted by charlyee View Post
    Sort of a related comment:

    To the best of my knowledge all the GTPs are made in Taiwan, I wonder why Palm changed vendors.
    The ODM for the Treo Pro (all of them GSM and CDMA) is HTC which is based in Taiwan. These companies have the products mass produced in China, because it's cheap of course. The GSM Touch Pros were probably mass produced by the same mass production line in China.

    These things go through a lot of hands before they reach your local stores .
  16. CDG
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    #536  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The ODM for the Treo Pro (all of them GSM and CDMA) is HTC which is based in Taiwan. These companies have the products mass produced in China, because it's cheap of course. The GSM Touch Pros were probably mass produced by the same mass production line in China.
    These things go through a lot of hands before they reach your local stores .
    Sorry, I meant the GSM Treo Pro. Underneath the battery it says made in Taiwan, can they put that there if it is really manufactured in China? Just curious.
    Please Visit My Other Hangout
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  17. #537  
    Quote Originally Posted by charlyee View Post
    Sorry, I meant the GSM Treo Pro. Underneath the battery it says made in Taiwan, can they put that there if it is really manufactured in China? Just curious.
    Well this was an enlightening find.

    Made in China (simplified Chinese: 中国制造; pinyin: zhōnggu zhzo) is a mark affixed to products manufactured in the People's Republic of China, specifically mainland China. While Hong Kong and Macau are special administrative regions of China, most products made in those regions are labeled as "Made in Hong Kong" and "Made in Macau", respectively. Although the name "China" is used by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China, the label "Made in China" is generally affixed to products made in the former. Products made in the Republic of China do not use the "Made in China" label. Rather, either "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in R.O.C." is used. Currently it is uncommon to see "Made in P.R.C."
    and
    The Made in Taiwan mark is a country of origin label affixed to products to indicate that the said product is made in Taiwan, The Republic of China, not to be confused with the People's Republic of China that the Made in China label refers to. The label is not regulated by any institution or law.

    As Taiwanese exports increased in the 1990s, the label has become well known for the wide variety of products, ranging from textiles, plastic toys and bikes from the 80s to laptops and computer chips in the 90s. The extent of variety prompted people to state, exaggeratedly that 'Everything is Made in Taiwan'.

    As with many country of origin labels the mark of Made in Taiwan has come to have an undertone meaning. Rarely for country of origin labels, the label has come to signify two distinct meanings: Quality products at low prices and durable technological innovations.
  18. CDG
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    #538  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The Made in Taiwan mark is a country of origin label affixed to products to indicate that the said product is made in Taiwan, The Republic of China, not to be confused with the People's Republic of China that the Made in China label refers to. The label is not regulated by any institution or law.

    As Taiwanese exports increased in the 1990s, the label has become well known for the wide variety of products, ranging from textiles, plastic toys and bikes from the 80s to laptops and computer chips in the 90s. The extent of variety prompted people to state, exaggeratedly that 'Everything is Made in Taiwan'.

    As with many country of origin labels the mark of Made in Taiwan has come to have an undertone meaning. Rarely for country of origin labels, the label has come to signify two distinct meanings: Quality products at low prices and durable technological innovations.
    Thanks darnell, I am not sure of the low prices but I will happily take the "quality product" and the "durable technological innovations" for my "Made In Taiwan GSM Treo Pro.
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  19. #539  
    The bits may have been made in China, and then assembled in Taiwan.

    Similar things happen with other items. Look at the Toyota Camry, which uses many of it's components that were produced in Japan (or China, and routed through Japan) but assembled in the US, so it gets the "Made in USA" stamp. (Not all Camry's are made in the US.)

    A lot of Buick's are assembled in Canada, but the parts are mostly from the US or Mexico. Those get the "Made in Canada" stamp.

    The "Made in" stamp can be decieving. It's almost never as simple as you might first believe.
  20. #540  
    So we stop and talk about where?

    Did we miss this?:

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Some guy named "Mo" over at BGR posted the following. Take it with a grain of salt but he at least sounds convincing.

    Pro Feb 22, March 1, 8 or 15
    It only depends on ongoing final testing of a Rom fix to allocate +/- 10 to 20 MB free memory. Pro is produced. Pro has passed FCC. It is in in stock stateside in one warehouse. 230,000 units. Production in China of additional stock has not halted. A new Rom has been developed to tighten default memory usage. It is now undergoing testing. Reflash by HTC contractors of 230,000 will take two days, mostly unpacking and repacking boxes. Reflash of stock coming off the line in China is easy.

    Pre June 15-30.
    Pre is not produced. Only about 200 alphas have left china. Production has not occurred. Beta has not occurred. Final physical specs have not been settled.

    I'd love to believe the part about getting more RAM back in the Pro, but I'm not holding my breath (why would that hold up testing/certification on Sprint's network when the Mogul obviously passed? Or rather, it's not like it was a "bug" that no one knew about pre-release. It's like if Palm was shocked that the Treo Pro was black.)
    I think the interesting part is the Rom Flash
    Just call me Berd.

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