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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post

    I also don't see any reason that Palm couldn't assist developers now, even if they never have in the past, to get a fix for a much-requested (and advertised) feature. Hopefully someone can use the Pro as a template for unlocking the 800w's GPS before I return this otherwise decent phone.
    Perhaps Palm is not responding, because they feel a simultaneous GPS chip can't be turned into a stand alone one? The Sprint air card with the MSM6800A by Qualcomm was out a year before the Treo 800w that has the same and the Sprint air card has never had a patch to make it stand alone, it was never advertised as stand alone either. Perhaps Palm realizes this requires an actual change in hardware, given the MSM6800A by Qualcomm was made explicitly as a simultaneous GPS chip? Palm did not make it that way and neither did Sprint, Palm got it that way from the manufacturer, Qualcomm. And in my opinion Palm and Sprint both have used misleading statements when advertising it in their product. Despite Qualcomm making it clear the MSM6800A is simultaneous GPS by their manufactured design.

    So I don't find it likely that Palm would discover a means of changing what they had no hand in making. The MSM6800A by Qualcomm was never made to be what we'd like for it to be, it does not do true stand alone GPS according to anything I've found about the chip.

    In my opinion, I can't say I've ever seen such crafty wording by Palm before and I think I know why.

    The MSM6800A by Qualcomm is what it is, simultaneous GPS, so there's no need to argue amongst ourselves over Palm slipping the means for a patch to the public.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The MSM6800A by Qualcomm is what it is, simultaneous GPS, so there's no need to argue amongst ourselves over Palm slipping the means for a patch to the public.
    Point of important clarification here:

    Simultaneous GPS (s-gps) has nothing to do with whether or not it is stand alone or assisted AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK.

    It refers to the ability of the signal processor to handle simultaneous cdma2000 signal (voice and data) and the GPS signal. So basically I think s-gps is just an advanced agps version.

    But I don't think it automatically precludes standalone function.

    The msm6800 uses the rfr6500 chipset, which is discussed here. Basically, s-gps is a good thing and should not be lamented here.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 09/26/2008 at 08:15 PM.

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  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    But I don't think it [s-GPS] automatically precludes standalone function.
    But also let's keep in mind that neither does a GPS preclude standalone GPS despite Palm's people asserting it does!
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by grant516 View Post
    The GPS is a crock, it was not shipped standalone- whether or not it will ever be is up in the air.
    The book and website advertise a standalone GPS function.

    Palm did not deliver- this does not work without a data connection.

    I am glad HTC is coming rapidly with the Touch Pro, as I will return my Treo to Sprint (or to Palm) and go for the other device.
    Regardless of Satisfaction- I request everyone file a BBB complaint against Palm for their deceptive advertising and failure to provide support for their product.
    Good advice.
  5. #145  
    My buddy just ordered the Treo Pro today. Going to play with it in a few days. Going to test it's aGPS vs. GPS first thing.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    My buddy just ordered the Treo Pro today. Going to play with it in a few days. Going to test it's aGPS vs. GPS first thing.
    Hasn't it already been confirmed that it's both?
  7. #147  
    If that's true which I believe you're correct, sucks for 800 owners. Feel free to carry on then. Maybe time for a BBB claim or something a little more drastic because this a crime.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Hasn't it already been confirmed that it's both?
    Regarding the Treo Pro and it's aGPS v. GPS abilities.
    It's been confirmed by reviewers, but not yet by ordinary customers. I'm still waiting to see what everyday customers say in their own use.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    But I don't think it automatically precludes standalone function.

    The msm6800 uses the rfr6500 chipset, which is discussed here. Basically, s-gps is a good thing and should not be lamented here.
    Perhaps with other chips, but the MSM6800A has only been ever proven to be what we consider aGPS and nothing more. And aGPS is the term Sprint used in advertising their wireless aircard with the MSM6800A. So with the MSM6800A, it's only ever proven to be aGPS.

    The MSM6800A is not a good thing for anyone who needs stand alone and simultaneous GPS as we understand the use of those terms. Given Sprint still says in their own Treo 800w advertising "Autonomous and simultaneous GPS...".
  10. #150  
    Well I have 2 brand new 800's (they are for sale, see the Marketplace) on my desk and a Treo Pro coming. A testing session will take place this week.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Perhaps with other chips, but the MSM6800A has only been ever proven to be what we consider aGPS and nothing more. And aGPS is the term Sprint used in advertising their wireless aircard with the MSM6800A. So with the MSM6800A, it's only ever proven to be aGPS.

    The MSM6800A is not a good thing for anyone who needs stand alone and simultaneous GPS as we understand the use of those terms. Given Sprint still says in their own Treo 800w advertising "Autonomous and simultaneous GPS...".
    Well, it's a very muddy situation. Here's what I know:
    • The Qualcomm MSM-6800 uses the RFR6500 chipset for GPSOne
    • The RFR6500 (ergo MSM6800) chipset is capable of "standalone + simultaneous" GPS (see attached pic from Qualcomm)
    • Qualcomm updated the MSM-6800 Chipset Solution with the MSM-6800A--same thing but smaller die (130nm --> 65nm). They did this with the MSM7200 and MSM7500 series as well
    • The Treo 800w uses the MSM-6800a
    • The Samsung Instinct also uses the MSM6800a. Note Sprint nor Samsung do not mention aGPS, GPS, standalone, etc. They just say "GPS".
    • Sprint Mogul uses the RFR6500 GPSOne chipset and is capable of standalone


    So knowing the MSM6800a is the same as the MSM6800 and includes the RFR6500 GPSOne chipset, it should be capable of standalone. (Once again, see the attached data sheet that shows Qualcomm stating that the MSM6800 (both 130nm and 65nm versions) can do "standalone + simultaneous" GPS)

    The problem as we well know is it appears the current configuration (which may ultimately lie with Qualcomm's drivers, not necessarily Palm's configuration of WM) requires the "network time" to prime the GPS.

    All of this though is getting beyond my own understanding, as Qualcomm (who I don't particularly care for) is very tight lipped about how their technology works and even keeps their customers (Palm, HTC, etc.) on a very limited need-to-know basis.

    I still have not see any reason though to believe that the RFR6500 cannot do standalone. Palm and Sprint, though both culpable for misleading advertising, might ultimately have to rely on Qualcomm for answers here as Palm and Sprint are not in the business of getting Qualcomm's licensed technology to work as advertised. See related article here.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Malatesta; 09/27/2008 at 09:37 PM.

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  12. #152  
    The bottom line is, show me a single device on planet Earth with the MSM6800a or MSM6800 and stand alone GPS?

    Somebody else might have RFR6500 in another chip, somebody else might have something of the gpsOne line in another chip, but NOTHING with the MSM6800a or MSM6800 has been shown to have stand alone GPS.

    This 2003 Qualcomm press release mentions the MSM6800 can do stand alone GPS.
    . The MSM6800 chipset integrates gpsOne(TM) functionality, to include simultaneous GPS and 1X voice, and enhancements to support assisted and standalone GPS...
    But this later 2004 Qualcomm press release mentions the MSM6800 is aGPS, never is it noted as having stand alone capabilities.

    ...
    Qualcomm supports CDMA2000 1xEV-DO with a broad range of chipsets and system software solutions, such as the MSM5500™, MSM6500™, MSM6550™, MSM6800™, and MSM7500™.
    ...
    gpsOne promises to be a driving force in the adoption of wireless data services. Qualcomm’s gpsOne hybrid, Assisted-GPS (AGPS) solution improves upon regular GPS, and provides industry-leading all-terrain accuracy and performance by combining GPS satellite and CDMA network ranging data to locate mobile phones in both outdoor and indoor environments. The cost-effective gpsOne solution is embedded in most Qualcomm CDMA chipsets for mobile devices.
    ...
    Reports note the Mogul does have stand alone capabilities, it has the MSM7500, that would be obviously later and superior to a MSM6800. If the Treo 800w had a MSM7500, we could claim standalone GPS is very possible with the Treo 800w. However, the Treo 800w has a MSM6800A, released over a year ago. Chips like the MSM7500 have already had firmware updates to provide for standalone and aGPS, but still no device with the MSM6800A or even the older MSM6800 has shown to actually have stand alone functionality as we here define it. I think, if they could do it, they would have already done it. But instead, Palm has come with a definition of the term "stand alone GPS" that is foreign to us here and not the same "stand alone" being reported in the Mogul with its MSM7500. If Palm were planning for an update that provided the Treo 800w stand alone GPS as we understand the term, they certainly would not have come with that article, that in my opinion was simply pathetic.

    Until I found that 2003 article above, I never thought Qualcomm ever once tried to directly claim the MSM6800 or MSM6800A might do stand alone, but in some cases they have made that claim. While never has it been shown to be fact, for our definition of stand alone GPS, in any device ever made to our knowledge, with the MSM6800 or MSM6800A. So maybe this statement from Palm, with a definition of stand alone GPS, that many of us find to be a HACK is something they received from Qualcomm?

    I feel, if the Treo 800w could do stand alone GPS as we here agree the term is defined, it would have already been done and Palm would not have dared made the statement they made, which offers a definition we've never heard before.
  13. #153  
    I wouldn't say that the MSM7500 is superior to the MSM6800 (and you haven't said why it "obviously" is) It's just a different architecture: one has a dual processor, the other doesn't.

    What's important is not the above though but the RFR6500 GPSOne chip found on both chipsets. That is what determines the GPS functionality. MSM here is used as a catchall for a collection of independent and modular chipsets dedicated to things like wifi, BT, GPS, etc.

    More importantly, there is no such thing as a Qualcomm GPSOne chip that cannot do standalone--they all can. The issue is how is setup? i.e. Is the antenna plexed to the chip? Which of the four possible configurations (hybrid, assisted, standalone, ms based) does it have on the driver side?

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  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I wouldn't say that the MSM7500 is superior to the MSM6800 (and you haven't said why it "obviously" is) It's just a different architecture: one has a dual processor, the other doesn't.

    What's important is not the above though but the RFR6500 GPSOne chip found on both chipsets.
    ...
    You said in your own statement why the MSM7500 is superior in one respect. I'd say another is that the MSM7500 actually has been proven to do stand alone GPS as we understand "stand alone GPS" should work.

    It's one thing to CLAIM they "all can", but fact is in the real world, not a single device either of us can name with the MSM6800 or MSM6800A has ever shown to do stand alone GPS. And the MSM6800 being out longer, one would THINK it would have some device with that capability if it's doable.

    Again, I expect stand alone GPS in the Treo 800w the same day it works as a teleportation device .
  15. #155  
    Seeing, this old thread, I had a thought about Ebag333 and Aero's discussion of different results once they left a CDMA area with GPS running. Ebag333 said once outside of CDMA range his GPS kept running without stopping, while Aero and others said about 5 minutes after being outside of CDMA range the GPS would stop working.

    What if kocoman's statement in that old thread and something Aero suggested a while back are true? That the GPS is SO WEAK when trying to run by it's self, that it's practically unusable as a stand alone GPS if it could totally run without ever needing a CDMA signal?

    Perhaps Ebag333 was in the most optimal conditions for getting GPS to continue to work once away from CDMA, while Aero and others were not? Which would mean since Ebag333's results were not the case for anyone else who tried it, that most won't be in optimal conditions for the weak GPS when it tries to run apart from the assistance of CDMA?

    I think that's possible, what do you guys think Ebag333 and Aero and others?

    This would also mean, if the Treo 800w was somehow made to have true stand alone GPS, it may not be of any true benefit for most users.
  16. #156  
    Here's the old specs from Qualcomm for the MSM6800 Chipset.

    gpsOne® position-location assisted-GPS (A-GPS) solution
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    You said in your own statement why the MSM7500 is superior in one respect. I'd say another is that the MSM7500 actually has been proven to do stand alone GPS as we understand "stand alone GPS" should work.

    It's one thing to CLAIM they "all can", but fact is in the real world, not a single device either of us can name with the MSM6800 or MSM6800A has ever shown to do stand alone GPS. And the MSM6800 being out longer, one would THINK it would have some device with that capability if it's doable.

    Again, I expect stand alone GPS in the Treo 800w the same day it works as a teleportation device .
    Bingo. 100% on the money.

    And yes, the Treo Pro has been confirmed by end-users to have true, standalone GPS. Take the SIM card out, reboot the phone, fire up the GPS. It works.
  18. #158  
    Gah.

    I posted a screen shot from the actual data sheet of the msm6800 and you come back with their brief overview? I also linked to a Qualcomm comparison chart showing that they state "standalone". There is no contradictory information from them--they are actually very consistent: the MSM6800(a) can do standalone if configured properly.

    Linked is the actual 4 page Qualcomm MSM6800 data sheet with much more detail including this section:

    Highly accurate positioning for location-based services (LBS)
    • Next-generation gpsOne® Assisted-GPS solutions provide enhanced GPS engines for
      greater sensitivity and faster start times
    • Enhanced filtering software optimizes GPS accuracy and availability for tracking and
      satellite navigation applications
    • Full integration with JAVA and BREW-based development environments delivers
      support for commercially deployed location services
    • Seamless operation in MS-Assisted, MS-Assisted Hybrid, MS-Based and Standalone GPS modes provides optimal performance both on and off-network
    • Support for both User Plane and Control Plane protocols including IS-801 Control
      Plane and Trusted, V1 and V2 User Plane Assisted-GPS protocols
    • Simultaneous operation capabilities with CDMA2000 1X and CDMA2000 1xEV-DO Rel. 0/EV-DO Rev. A

    Once again you are misunderstanding important facts:
    1. All GPSOne systems can be setup for 4 different functions
    2. The MSM6800/MSM6800A both have the RFR6500 GPS/PCS/Radio chip on board--the same found in other devices


    And here is the RFR6500 Chipset diagram:



    The only mystery here is why the 800w is not setup for optimal "standalone" functionality, not whether the technology can handle it as it's the same tech that's found in other "GPS" devices.

    Perhaps Palm screwed it up but more likely it has to do with the drivers that the main controller chip has to use to interact with the RFR6500. But ultimately we just don't know.

    Actually, maybe they just did not opt for/pay for/order up gpsOneExtra Assistance--that is what it sounds like it is lacking, or rather it'd be nice to have as well, lol (though it requires an internet connection initially) The MSM6800 supports gpsOneExtra and is an added software/driver layer.

    ps Mentioning that the MSM7500 has dual processors does not make it "superior" and I have never said as much, you are attempting to speak for me, erroneously. Case in point, the HTC Mogul uses that chipset (msm7500) and the dual processor offers virtually zero benefit in performance, partially because one of the ARM11 processor under-performs. If you have used one lately, you'd hardly claim it was much better than MSM6800.

    Once again, what IS relevant for this discussion is that MSM7500 and MSM6800/a both use the same RFR6500 for its radio (GPS, PCS, Cell) receiver.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 09/28/2008 at 11:27 AM.

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  19. #159  
    Malatesta - I think with the right configuration, the Treo 800w is capable of being a teleportation device also .

    Qualcomm's statements about the MSM6800 specifically note it is aGPS. While you bring up various statements about the overall product line. It's like bringing me a Mustang that is not a 5.0 and saying Ford made 5.0 Mustangs. Bottom line is, we don't have the 5.0 and we don't have stand alone GPS. No MSM6800 or MSM6800a out there has been shown to do stand alone and Qualcomm says it's aGPS. But go ahead, show me another statement about gpsOne doing standalone, it's not going to make your Treo 800w do stand alone and Palm already told you they feel you've got stand alone by their supposed definition. Qualcomm certainly has no motive to come with a stand alone MSM6800A for an already sold MSM6800A in a Treo 800w, they've already moved on to marketing their newer (more expensive, think profit motive, it's how they stay in business) chips.

    So Palm's not concerned, Qualcomm has moved on and Sprint is silent.

    I suspect if you can make the MSM6800A stand alone, it involves more than a firmware patch and that's why nobody has made one.

    I'm not going to play up false hope for people who paid hundreds of dollars for something Palm did not deliver as many of us consumers understand the term "stand alone GPS" to work. People like Aero have a SERIOUS NEED FOR STAND ALONE GPS NOW and have some serious decisions to make. Some need to really decide if they should keep the 800w over this and nobody has committed to make the MSM6800a stand alone, because it's likely not doable via firmware update. Not to mention, if it was stand alone it's likely so weak it would not be of true benefit.

    So I've got no problem telling anyone with or considering the Treo 800w, if they want and need true stand alone GPS as many of us understand the term, they should not look for it in the Treo 800w. It's not there, nobody has said they'll put it there and plenty of evidence shows it won't ever be there. Just as all other devices before the Treo 800w with the MSM6800 or MSM6800a.

    The Mogul and Treo Pro thus far have been confirmed to have stand alone GPS, let those who need it get one of those devices or something else.
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post

    ps Mentioning that the MSM7500 has dual processors does not make it "superior" and I have never said as much, you are attempting to speak for me, erroneously.
    Malatesta, I'm done with ya on this matter man.

    The MSM7500 is superior, it has dual processors and is proven to work as stand alone GPS. Fine, you didn't say it, I did.


    Now respond with whatever you like, I'm done with back and forth with you on this man.

    I'm sure everyone who does not find dual processors to be a superior design awaits stand alone GPS in the Treo 800w .

    I'm done, the last word is yours.
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