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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    The Treo Pro is confirmed to have 100% working GPS in both aGPS and standalone mode. Not sure if it has a different GPS chipset or just works correctly because it was designed by HTC instead of Palm.
    Let's see if the CDMA version of the Pro does. Palm told me initially the standalone is disabled because of an agreement with the CDMA chip rights holder (I assume this is Qualcomm). Maybe this was right, maybe this was wrong, but the latest suggests it is true.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post

    Sometimes you need to stop going after so called perfection (which when you reach it will no longer be what you want), and just be content with what you have.
    It is perfection seeking to expect what was advertised to be delivered after the money was paid for the product? I don't. It usually works out fine with most items I purchase. I think to be malcontent about it would involve actions outside of simply asking the manufacturer to deliver what they promised and notifying consumer agencies for the good of other consumers when the manufacturer fails to uphold their end of the transaction as advertised.

    My money was exactly as I told them it would be. None of the dollars I gave them stopped working if they walked in the wrong direction.

    We know Palm could fix this if they wanted, because they've got it working on the Treo Pro and we know it's a software issue.

    Guys like xdalaw even sold other equipment based on Palm's advertising.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I think the point is we got a CYA (cover your a__) answer that redefines Standalone GPS, instead of a fix. The language in the knowledge base article is Orwellian. And more about protecting themselves than a serious answer from a company trying to regain long lost eminence in their market.
    I totally agree.

    Respectfully, this is the logical equivalent of a device requiring an evdo connection before "initializing" a wifi connection. Also I lose my GPS if "initialized" with aGPS about 10 to 15 minutes after loss of a Sprint signal. This occurs under perfect GPS situations. Ebagg, I am not questioning your test, but I and others have tested this and lose the signal fairly quickly.
    Oh, oh, now we have a 2nd testimony against Ebag333. Well Ebag333, your word against nsx alone is one thing, but now perhaps it's not so clear if GPS works when losing CDMA after initialization. And I still recall some people affirming what Aero is saying in earlier comments.

    This is a very very disappointing response from Palm and I feel very strongly they falsely advertised this.
    Totally agree, I mean totally agree!

    Yes, but:
    a) Serious companies don't simply redefine what a feature is.
    b) Again, respectfully, Palm is the one who chose to list this as one of the top features. This is not like a speaker that falls below the average, or a bug caused by several programs open at once, etc. Palm itself advertised "Standalone GPS" as a primary feature.
    Yup.

    It really does not matter what Palm sold us in the past, now they sold us something that does not do what they said it would do. And if that's happened in the past, it's nothing good that it's happening again. I've seen them have devices with bugs (Palm Pro, Visor Prism with HandSpring before the merger, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650), but I can't say they clearly advertised a feature this much and it not work as advertised. And what about the people who never owned a Treo before? Are they supposed to accept that their first Treo does not work as they read it would?

    I've been Palm loyal for a long time, but if a competitor gives them a good run in a future product, this sort of thing will ensure I start running with the competitor. And if I get another Treo, I think my days of buying the day of product release are done. I'm starting to think that with Palm, holding off 90 days is best.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Let's see if the CDMA version of the Pro does. Palm told me initially the standalone is disabled because of an agreement with the CDMA chip rights holder (I assume this is Qualcomm). Maybe this was right, maybe this was wrong, but the latest suggests it is true.
    If this is true, it would make Palm's latest response flat out disingenuous.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Let's see if the CDMA version of the Pro does. Palm told me initially the standalone is disabled because of an agreement with the CDMA chip rights holder (I assume this is Qualcomm). Maybe this was right, maybe this was wrong, but the latest suggests it is true.
    Qualcomm makes all of the CDMA chips. Standalone GPS works perfectly in the Q9c, Mogul, Touch, Diamond, etc. They all have Qualcomm chips.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I think the point is we got a CYA (cover your a__) answer that redefines Standalone GPS, instead of a fix.
    This is true. Though in all fairness, a fix may be forthcoming. (One can only hope.)


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Also I lose my GPS if "initialized" with aGPS about 10 to 15 minutes after loss of a Sprint signal. This occurs under perfect GPS situations. Ebagg, I am not questioning your test, but I and others have tested this and lose the signal fairly quickly.
    Well, perhaps my phone is more special than your phone.

    Seriously though, I've literally never lost a signal once I leave the network. I'm not sure why you are...the only other thing I can think of is that if you put the phone to sleep (red button) then the GPS isn't active and could lose the signal that way. I keep my phone active by plugging it in when I'm using it off the network for GPS purposes (silly I know, and it only works while driving, but it works).

    Any way you could replicate how you're losing the signal?


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    a) Serious companies don't simply redefine what a feature is.
    That's quite untrue. Microsoft, for example, does that all the time. (And if you're going to attempt to argue that they're not a "serious" company, I'd like to find out what's more serious than a company with 80% market share. )

    There are a lot of other companies who do the same. Look at many of the cable, telco, and wireless companies (for example blocking bittorrent while claiming it's open, or saying it's "for your protection", etc).

    "Serious" has nothing to do with it. Maybe honest might be a better word...but even in those cases there are many situations where the way you define a "feature" is not the way I define a feature. I'm not applying this to the 800w and GPS, but merely stating it in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    b) Again, respectfully, Palm is the one who chose to list this as one of the top features. This is not like a speaker that falls below the average, or a bug caused by several programs open at once, etc. Palm itself advertised "Standalone GPS" as a primary feature.
    True and that's one of the reasons why I'm riding them so hard. If they simply said "GPS" and made no mention of standalone....well...then that's something else entirely. Unfortunately they did not go that route.


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Oh, oh, now we have a 2nd testimony against Ebag333. Well Ebag333, your word against nsx alone is one thing, but now perhaps it's not so clear if GPS works when losing CDMA after initialization. And I still recall some people affirming what Aero is saying in earlier comments.
    For the record, I never said that people haven't lost their GPS.

    All I can state is my personal experience, and that is that I've never lost a GPS signal off network. I don't know what I'm doing right (or other folks are doing wrong), but it must be working.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Let's see if the CDMA version of the Pro does. Palm told me initially the standalone is disabled because of an agreement with the CDMA chip rights holder (I assume this is Qualcomm). Maybe this was right, maybe this was wrong, but the latest suggests it is true.
    This I can actually believe. Think of it this:

    Palm proposes the 800w to Verizon. Verizon says yes, and in their infinite wisdom ( ) decides to lock down GPS. Palm codes it in such a way that it's locked down.

    Verizon bails and Sprint picks up the phone. It's too close to launch to start from scratch, so Palm uses what they had for Verizon for Sprint. The GPS lock down gets missed in the short period of time they have to switch carriers.

    Verizon is notorious for locking down their phones, so I have little trouble imagining a scenario such as the one played out above.
    Last edited by Ebag333; 09/17/2008 at 01:50 AM.
  6. #66  
    Aero, what GPS software are you using? It probably would be good to ensure you and Ebag333 are testing using the same software and methods.
  7. #67  
    Verizon locking down their phones has NOTHING to do with Qualcomm. Their locks are also easy to bypass. Their current GPS block was easily defeated to allow programs other than their own GPS software to access the GPS data.
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    #68  
    Ok enough is enough this fighting amongst ourselves is not going to solve the issue remember what happened in the last thread we really dont want to get this thread locked too do we.

    We really need to get a cool head and take a more proactive approach rather than trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. What may have worked for one person may not work for another we all know that happens from time to time and thats that.

    If Aero and Ebagg want to preform some test and compare notes thats fine but the really problem is the Stand-Alone GPS issue not who's right or wrong.

    We need to review what options we can take and go from there this inner figthing is getting us no where and it may be what Palm wants so that we forget the issue altogether.

    I know I purchased the phone for the feature Stand-Alone GPS because I wanted to stop having to carry around a seperate GPS unit when I wanted to use either my Garmin or TomTom.Im disappointed yes but it is what it is right now. Yes Palm screwed up but all we can do is come up with productive ideas to help fix the problem even if Palm wont.

    Now we know that the Treo Pro has the true GPS we are all looking for maybe when someone can get their hands on the ROM we can figure out the "software issue" that Palm says is the problem and go from there. It worked with the recent Sprint Picture Mail cab file release right?

    It was also stated in the a few posts up someone requested the QPST data from the 800w maybe that is a route that we can take.

    Or we can continue to bug Palm until they officially tell us to go away or they fix the problem.

    We need to work together and stop fighting seriously.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowX View Post

    It was also stated in the a few posts up someone requested the QPST data from the 800w maybe that is a route that we can take.
    So do you know how to provide that to the person who requested it?

    Ebag and Aero are comparing notes, it's not "fighting". They both have been very respectful and civil towards each other.
  10. ShadowX's Avatar
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    #70  
    Ok maybe fighting is the wrong word sorry

    But i dont have the QPST data the person requested in fact I dont even have my phone right now (long story).

    But I was simply trying to throw out some ideas thats all.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Aero, what GPS software are you using? It probably would be good to ensure you and Ebag333 are testing using the same software and methods.
    Methods of testing:

    1. Using Google Maps with default settings. Maps downloaded prior to leaving service.
    2. Using TomTom 7 and GPS Gate.


    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Verizon locking down their phones has NOTHING to do with Qualcomm. Their locks are also easy to bypass. Their current GPS block was easily defeated to allow programs other than their own GPS software to access the GPS data.


    Couple of things here....

    Verizon is the carrier who most likely dictated how the 800w is setup. From what I've found, Verizon was the original carrier of the 800w. Palm support (when I called them) didn't even have Sprint in their database as the provider, Verizon was the only one. One of the reps I talked to didn't even know that Sprint was carrying it (this was just a few days after release).

    Verizon is well known for locking down devices (bluetooth on the 650, etc).

    Regardless of who manufactured the device, the API, software, and drivers are all controlled (ultimately) by Microsoft, Palm, and the carriers. Each one has more control than the next. The manufacturer creates the chip, Microsoft (may or may not) has drivers/software for it, Palm tweaks said drivers/software to fit their needs, and the end carrier makes demands that Palm then changes the drivers/software to meet.

    Think of the 650. Palm built in dial up networking support. Verizon and Sprint flipped, didn't want it, and Palm disabled it.


    As for the ease of bypassing it.....each scenario is different. 650 users could not bypass the restrictions that Verizon put on bluetooth (easily). The DUN hack was extremely easy.

    And if it's so easy to bypass the lockdown....why hasn't anyone done it yet?
  12. #72  
    Ebag333 has a point. For what benefit would Palm lock anything down, if they made all the decisions in what is released to the public? It's 100% logical that the carriers, some carrier, is behind GPS having some sort of lock. Either Verizon or Sprint or both, I don't know, but I suspect the carriers (or just one carrier) demanded it.

    If Verizon demanded it, Palm made a batch with the lock and it was cheaper to go with it than turn back and try and undo it. So they employ CYA to the max. If Sprint demanded it, we're really not getting a fix for sure, Palm still left in CYA mode.

    Palm made the Treo Pro totally open and that included the GPS working as we would expect a Stand alone and Assisted GPS to work.
  13. #73  
    The device I waited over 12 months for, that I spent a whole day to track down and had in my hands 3 days before it was officially released, may be going back.

    The 700wx stands ready to resume its duties.

    My 800w:

    - won't allow me to get of my BT GPS
    - won't let me use a decently priced 16 GB SDHC or overpriced 32GB card
    - has worse call quality - everyone I talk to on the phone has been complaining about this
    - misses calls more than the 700wx
    - has an awful speaker (I watched videos on the two devices side by side, and the 700wx was loud while the 800w was crackly)
    - doesn't have a headset with volume control to mitigate the low-frequency low volume issues on the headset (where is it Seidio?)
    - has more expensive accessories
    - has lower battery life
    - won't allow me to listen to audio while simultaneously charging the device w/o an adapter that I'd have to carry around (this is possibly the biggest slap in the face considering the Pro has a regular jack)
    - has a higher-res 320x320 screen that is both a blessing and a curse (Opera Mini fonts are actually harder to read, incompatibility with some apps)
    - doesn't emulate games nearly as well (no overclocker, controls are worse than 700wx because of diagonal key press issues, emulator compatibility because of screen issues)

    I can and did overlook all these issues or found workarounds because I had a device that:
    - was much smaller
    - had more RAM than I would need
    - had ample storage
    - handled the expansion card well (no more lost cards, longer time before card auto-unloads)
    - had Wi-Fi which I would probably turn on once a year
    - had microUSB
    - and most importantly, would have working GPS

    I can't listen to lecture MP3s on the subway because the speaker has a deep voice and the 800w cannot reproduce that kind of sound at a level that's close to audible in a noisy environment.
    I can't play games.
    I can't take advantage of larger capacity cards.
    I have to carry around spare batteries to get through a day.
    I still have my BT GPS on my key chain.

    My usage habits may be unique, but I can't do 60% of the things I did with my 700wx. For working GPS, I would give up all that other stuff. Without a GPS fix, there is no reason for me to keep this device that I initially loved so much.

    Chatting with Sprint now...
    A new Avatar to commemorate Silly Season.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333 has a point. For what benefit would Palm lock anything down, if they made all the decisions in what is released to the public? It's 100% logical that the carriers, some carrier, is behind GPS having some sort of lock. Either Verizon or Sprint or both, I don't know, but I suspect the carriers (or just one carrier) demanded it.

    If Verizon demanded it, Palm made a batch with the lock and it was cheaper to go with it than turn back and try and undo it. So they employ CYA to the max. If Sprint demanded it, we're really not getting a fix for sure, Palm still left in CYA mode.

    Palm made the Treo Pro totally open and that included the GPS working as we would expect a Stand alone and Assisted GPS to work.
    BS. They can easily leak something to one of the developers on this forum if it's a software fix. The TC community has seen a number of "miraculous" fixes in the past.
    A new Avatar to commemorate Silly Season.
  15. #75  
    skfny,

    The 700wx stands ready to resume its duties.
    It must have "I told you not to get it and keep me" on the screen ? (just kidding)

    Are you certain the Treo 800w will not work with a 16 or 32GB MicroSDHC card? If so, how did you learn this? Because many of us have been waiting to know and I have not seen any 16 or 32GB MicroSDHC cards on the market.

    Your in-call sound problems sound like a defect, you should take it back. Or are the complaints coming from people you talk to while on the subway train?


    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    BS. They can easily leak something to one of the developers on this forum if it's a software fix. The TC community has seen a number of "miraculous" fixes in the past.
    Just because somebody may have fed you a leak in the past does not mean every time Palm is locked into doing something that somebody is going to get you a leaked fix, or something to help developers here make a fix. Do you know if someone may have taken risks providing a leak in the past? Do you have proof Palm intended for those past leaks to occur? You're saying my statement is "BS" does nothing to disprove that it's possible and very likely that Verizon and/or Sprint mandated the lock be in place. Again I ask, for what benefit would Palm lock anything down, if they made all the decisions in what is released to the public? They broke all the "rules" with carriers in releasing the Treo Pro unlocked in the USA. And they opened up everything, including GPS. I think that's how they prefer to release products and the carriers lock them down.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post

    The 700wx stands ready to resume its duties.

    My 800w:

    - won't allow me to get of my BT GPS
    Could be your BT GPS. I have no problems connecting my 800w to my BT GPS (OnCourse Bluetooth GPS Receiver Edition 3). I just don't, since it's kind of redundant with the 800w having a built-in GPS. I originally bought it to use on my 700wx. Did you create an outgoing serial port on the 800w?
  17. #77  
    ok. I have bricked gps altogether.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    All I can state is my personal experience, and that is that I've never lost a GPS signal off network. I don't know what I'm doing right (or other folks are doing wrong), but it must be working.
    Before I killed my gps altogether what my tests were showing is that sat connections that got dropped were not reacquired and new sats were not picked up without another tower hit. So HDOP was increasing and then position was lost altogether.
  19. #79  
    I just got off the phone with a friend of mine in Houston. He has Sprint, which has always worked out nice with free Sprint to Sprint calling.

    He told me before we started calling that he'd eventually hit a "dead spot" because pockets of areas have cell coverage and other parts don't. During the call he eventually lost his signal. His family is doing fine and they say officials have been doing a good job in getting them what they need. Still without power, but able to manage. Which is about the same as another friend informed me earlier today, who also lives there.

    But I had to think, dang if he needed GPS (with a Treo 800w) he would be screwed and at a bad time to be in such a spot.
    Last edited by darnell; 09/17/2008 at 08:53 PM.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    BS. They can easily leak something to one of the developers on this forum if it's a software fix. The TC community has seen a number of "miraculous" fixes in the past.
    Please point out all the situations where Palm dev's have leaked a patch, fix, or code.

    Every "miraculous" fix I'm aware of has been from the hard work of folks here.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Before I killed my gps altogether what my tests were showing is that sat connections that got dropped were not reacquired and new sats were not picked up without another tower hit. So HDOP was increasing and then position was lost altogether.
    This hasn't been my experience. I picked up new satellites just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    ok. I have bricked gps altogether.
    Well, maybe that's why you're having issues.
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