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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I sure hope somebody understands what you said, because I'd like for you or anybody to fix it .

    I don't have a 800w (uses MSM6800B) myself, so my best help would be from the novatel, which uses the similar MSM6800A chipset. I have not receive any unit to work with and there's no way to get it in Canada.
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  2. #42  
    Most companies respond and respond quickly to BBB complaints. Those which ignore them are typically poorly run companies in the first place that don't last long because the failure to respond to BBB reflects general incompetence and they get eaten by their competition.

    Sprint definitely does respond to BBB. we had an issue that retentions refused to fix, gave the "well you can cancel" line, we contacted the BBB and got the promised benefit.

    The issue thankfully doesn't have anything to do with Sprint. i say thankfully because they would just refund a what for most is deeply discount and no repeatable price. Of course they can't enforce an ETF if one cancels based on a vaporware promised feature whether you do it in 30 days, 90 days or 12 months. So they will have some sensitivity. Sprint has also lost class actions so don't think the no class action or binding arbitration clauses in their TOS can stick; that has already been thrown out in court.

    The real responsible party is Palm. But I don't think at this point it is about class action or the BBB. I think it is reasonable to give it some more time. But it is still unclear if this is disabled by qualcomm and can not be resolved by Palm at all.

    My own feeling and hope is that users should call and or email Palm support and politely but firmly request resolution.
  3.    #43  
    I heard back from my high-level contact at Palm today, and while we only had a brief conversation, she did forward me a link to an article which was just recently posted to Palm's knowledge base. I haven't had the chance to fully read and digest this article yet, although I informed my contact I would definitely get back in touch with them once I did. In the meantime, I will post the link here for everyone's consumption.

    Difference between A-GPS and GPS on a Treo 800w : http://kb.palm.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBC...ase=Obj(17267))
    Last edited by mbressman; 09/16/2008 at 01:39 PM.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbressman View Post
    I heard back from my high-level contact at Palm today, and while we only had a brief conversation, she did forward me a link to an article which was just recently posted to Palm's knowledge base. I haven't had the chance to fully read and digest this article yet, although I informed my contact I would definitely get back in touch with them once I did. In the meantime, I will post the link here for everyone's consumption.

    Difference between A-GPS and GPS on a Treo 800w : http://kb.palm.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBC...Case=obj(17267)
    just in case people cant see the link...go to search and type the article id

    Article ID: 17267
    Difference between A-GPS and GPS on a Treo 800w
    Your Treo 800w smartphone supports both stand-alone GPS and Assisted GPS (A-GPS).



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    What's the difference?
    GPS (non-assisted, or stand-alone) gets its location data from satellites orbiting above the earth. When you first turn on the GPS function, there will be a delay while the GPS device searches for satellites. The wait time is exacerbated by poor signal conditions, such as when you're surrounded by tall buildings, you're indoors, or you're under trees. In addition, when first turned on in these conditions, some non-assisted GPS units may not be able to download the almanac and ephemeris information from the GPS satellites, rendering them unable to function until a clear signal can be received continuously for up to one minute.

    A-GPS gets its location data from nearby cellular towers, who in turn get their data from a constant connection to GPS satellites. The towers keep track of satellites in range, so your phone can ping the tower and know which satellites to try to connect to, speeding up the process greatly.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    GPS vs. A-GPS on the Treo 800w
    Treo 800w supports stand-alone GPS and A-GPS. Stand-alone GPS is used when the cellular radio is off or the device is not connected to the cellular network.

    A-GPS
    For optimal performance, the use of A-GPS is recommended because it significantly reduces the time to get the location fix. This requires data connection to cellular network, so your smartphone must be on and connected, and you must be subscribed to a data plan from your mobile service provider.

    Sprint note: While a "Sprint Navigation" subscription is included in most data plans from Sprint (including the "Simply Everything" plan), this subscription is not required to use the GPS search bar on the Today screen or the Maps application in the Programs folder (Start , then Programs). However, users must subscribe to and use Sprint Navigation for turn-by-turn directions and audible directions. To launch Sprint Navigation, select Drive to… in the Maps application, or select Sprint Navigation in the Programs folder (Start , then Programs).

    GPS (stand-alone)
    You can use stand-alone GPS in the following cases:

    When the data network is not available or the cellular radio is powered off.
    When your Treo 800w does not have a voice and/or data plan from a mobile service provider.
    To use stand-alone GPS:

    Make sure your device is outside and in an area with sufficient open space.
    Turn on the cellular radio (press and hold the red button) to acquire the system time from the network. This is necessary to acquire the first GPS location fix. You can do this even if you don't have a voice/data plan from a mobile service provider.
    Once the system time is acquired, turn off the cellular radion (press and hold the red button); it is not needed to get GPS location fix.
    The step to power on the radio to acquire system time is necessary whenever Treo 800w is reset.

    It may take as long as 8 to 10 minutes to get a fix on a satellite. Once the GPS fix is obtained, the location must be shown on a map. For this, there are two options:

    Real-time maps: The maps for your location are downloaded real-time to your smartphone. The GPS search bar on the Today screen, the Maps application in the Programs folder (Start , then Programs), and applications such as Live Search for Windows Mobile behave in this way. To download the maps in real time, a data connection is needed. Since the cellular radio is off, you can use Wi-Fi to download the maps; the exact compatibility and the speed of download will vary greatly in this case.
    On-device maps: The alternative is to store the maps locally on your smartphone. You can do this by adding a third-party application such as Garmin to your device, and storing Garmin's maps on an expansion card. In this scenario, you can use stand-alone GPS to get the device location, and the third-party maps on your SD card to display your location on the screen. No data connection – Wi-Fi or cellular – is necessary.
  5. xdalaw's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote:

    "Turn on the cellular radio (press and hold the red button) to acquire the system time from the network. This is necessary to acquire the first GPS location fix. You can do this even if you don't have a voice/data plan from a mobile service provider.
    Once the system time is acquired, turn off the cellular radion (press and hold the red button); it is not needed to get GPS location fix.
    The step to power on the radio to acquire system time is necessary whenever Treo 800w is reset."


    What if you aren't in a location that will allow you to get the system time? If we're required to do that step and if it's impossible in a given location, then the GPS isn't really stand-alone.


    UPDATE: working link to article: http://kb.palm.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBC...ase=Obj(17267)
    Last edited by xdalaw; 09/16/2008 at 01:58 PM.
    Palm III -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Dell Axim X5 Advanced -> Dell Axim X3i -> Dell Axim X50v -> Cingular 8125 -> Sprint Palm Treo 700Wx -> ->Palm Treo 700P (my wife's but I played with it ) -> Sprint Mogul -> Treo 800w -> Touch Pro & Treo Pro.
  6. #46  
    I'm saddened by Palm's response.
  7. #47  
    The Treo Pro is confirmed to have 100% working GPS in both aGPS and standalone mode. Not sure if it has a different GPS chipset or just works correctly because it was designed by HTC instead of Palm.
  8. xdalaw's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I'm saddened by Palm's response.
    I'm disgusted by Palm's response.

    Please unlock my GPS, Palm.
    Palm III -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Dell Axim X5 Advanced -> Dell Axim X3i -> Dell Axim X50v -> Cingular 8125 -> Sprint Palm Treo 700Wx -> ->Palm Treo 700P (my wife's but I played with it ) -> Sprint Mogul -> Treo 800w -> Touch Pro & Treo Pro.
  9. #49  
    That sort of reads as a contridiction to itself.

    It does not work without a network present.
    However they say it can be used without the networks assistance, hasn't that also been proven false- that after some time the GPS will cut out?

    I wonder if anyone has actually just tested the device and saw it didn't work as intented.
  10. #50  
    What the hell was that?
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by grant516 View Post
    That sort of reads as a contridiction to itself.

    It does not work without a network present.
    However they say it can be used without the networks assistance, hasn't that also been proven false- that after some time the GPS will cut out?

    I wonder if anyone has actually just tested the device and saw it didn't work as intented.

    People have mentioned after some time away from a network signal the GPS cuts out. I have not found the actual comment(s) yet. But I have found a comment where someone was away from CDMA signals and had problems.

    The bottom line is, it's NOT stand alone GPS and to see Palm respond like this is about the worst I've seen from them. They would have been better to have not said anything instead of trying to twist the meaning of stand alone GPS! They knew what it meant when making the Treo Pro!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    People have mentioned after some time away from a network signal the GPS cuts out. I have not found the actual comment(s) yet. But I have found a comment where someone was away from CDMA signals and had problems.
    I have used it extensively without a signal and no problems. As long as I have started the GPS while I have a signal, it hasn't been an issue.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I have used it extensively without a signal and no problems. As long as I have started the GPS while I have a signal, it hasn't been an issue.
    Well if Ebag333 says it I believe it .

    But of course if you're in an area without CDMA and need to try and get back to a populated area, forget about using the Treo 800w to map a route .

    This is good news for my upcoming trip, but if I need to stop and shut things down in a non-CDMA area .
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    I have used it extensively without a signal and no problems. As long as I have started the GPS while I have a signal, it hasn't been an issue.
    Not true. It only lasts for a short amount of time without a signal if you're traveling. It might work if you stand in one place, but who needs GPS for that? LOL
  15. #55  
    When I said:
    Well if Ebag333 says it I believe it .
    I almost said something about how I would not trust nsxprime, but I didn't want to be a nit. Now given Ebag333 and nsxprime have said conflicting statements, which I totally anticipated might happen. I'll say I still think Ebag333 is probably right. Because I've NEVER experienced MOST of the things nsxprime complains about!
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    When I said:


    I almost said something about how I would not trust nsxprime, but I didn't want to be a nit. Now given Ebag333 and nsxprime have said conflicting statements, which I totally anticipated might happen. I'll say I still think Ebag333 is probably right. Because I've NEVER experienced MOST of the things nsxprime complains about!
    Your 800w does not have standalone GPS and neither does ebag's. Sorry to burst your bubble. Buh bye.
  17. #57  
    Let's not quibble with each other over the particulars of something we know is not working as advertised.

    I'm sorry for taking shots at you nsx.

    What we all agree on, is that the GPS is NOT functioning as a true standalone and assisted GPS should. Even if that means it needs a cell (CDMA to be exact) signal when starting up, that's not standalone and assisted, that's assisted not standalone.

    So Palm is claiming something that we all find to be untrue. And they're not making any commitment to fix it. In fact, they're claiming they are right in their claims of standalone and assisted GPS.

    So we've basically been told get lost by Palm. If we're in an area with no cell signal trying to start up the GPS we're hosed and that's just the way it's going to be from their view of it.

    Nothing we need to argue about, we should not be facing this in the first place, given the device should work as advertised and that's not a problem we made.

    Well what are the options now? BBB complaints?

    This has lowered my level of trust in Palm.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well if Ebag333 says it I believe it .
    I say that you will win the lottery at some point in your life if you send me $100 every month.




    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    But of course if you're in an area without CDMA and need to try and get back to a populated area, forget about using the Treo 800w to map a route .

    This is good news for my upcoming trip, but if I need to stop and shut things down in a non-CDMA area .
    True. Which is why I use Google Maps and TomTom. One's primarily for when I have service, the other for when I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Not true. It only lasts for a short amount of time without a signal if you're traveling. It might work if you stand in one place, but who needs GPS for that? LOL
    I've traveled over 30 miles twice (same area) with it tracking perfectly, down in Cali (Tahoe area). Not a straight line, and I had not mapped it out previously (as I was not on marked roads and was not sure the exact path of the trail).

    More recently I traveled close to 100 miles without service. Again, I started GPS prior to leaving service and had no issues.

    I addition to those examples I've use GPS for shorter trips off and on at least a dozen times (5-15 mile range). I've even used Google Maps off the network, which actually will work as long as you have the maps downloaded ahead of time.

    I suspect that those who have "lost" the GPS while off network have simply lost too many GPS satellites. If they lose all the satellites for a long enough period of time, the system time will not be updated (it can be updated either from the towers or from the satellites). If the system time is too old, I suspect that the 800w will no longer pick up new satellites.

    I haven't confirmed that, it's simply an educated guess based on what I know about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Your 800w does not have standalone GPS and neither does ebag's. Sorry to burst your bubble. Buh bye.
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Let's not quibble with each other over the particulars of something we know is not working as advertised.

    What we all agree on, is that the GPS is NOT functioning as a true standalone and assisted GPS should. Even if that means it needs a cell (CDMA to be exact) signal when starting up, that's not standalone and assisted, that's assisted not standalone.
    It's not really stand-alone, but it's not really aGPS either.

    aGPS often does not work without a carrier signal (off network). The 800w does.

    But stand alone GPS does not require a carrier signal to initialize GPS. The 800w does.

    So, for the sake of clarification, the 800w is standalone for operation, but is strictly aGPS for initialization.


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So Palm is claiming something that we all find to be untrue. And they're not making any commitment to fix it. In fact, they're claiming they are right in their claims of standalone and assisted GPS.

    So we've basically been told get lost by Palm. If we're in an area with no cell signal trying to start up the GPS we're hosed and that's just the way it's going to be from their view of it.

    Nothing we need to argue about, we should not be facing this in the first place, given the device should work as advertised and that's not a problem we made.

    Well what are the options now? BBB complaints?

    This has lowered my level of trust in Palm.
    Here's the way I look at it.

    While I'm quite disappointed (and vocal ) about the lack of true standalone GPS on the 800w, the fact is that any GPS on the 800w is a huge improvement from what I had before.

    Moving from the 700wx, the only option I had for GPS was using a GPS puck (which was a pain in the arse with the crappy WM5 bluetooth drivers, requiring 5+ minutes to get it set up each time I wanted to use it).

    The 800w is such a huge improvement over the 700wx that I'm willing to accept the inevitable flaw.

    The fact is that there are going to be flaws and bugs with any device. The 700w had a much more serious one than the 800w does. Even the 700wx had some issues with it (IE: aforementioned bluetooth drivers).

    The number of flaws with the 800w are quite small. GPS is the only (to me) major one, everything else is quite minor.

    I'm quite willing to live with that. I expect (hope) Palm will release a patch at some future point to enable stand alone GPS initialization, but until then I'm content with the state of the device as is.

    Sometimes you need to stop going after so called perfection (which when you reach it will no longer be what you want), and just be content with what you have.

    I guess I've master the art of Treo Zen.
  19. xdalaw's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well if Ebag333 says it I believe it .

    But of course if you're in an area without CDMA and need to try and get back to a populated area, forget about using the Treo 800w to map a route .

    This is good news for my upcoming trip, but if I need to stop and shut things down in a non-CDMA area .
    I also don't doubt Ebag333 at all, but the problem is still what darnell describes. I wouldn't want to have to rely on this if I was doing some major exploring/touring (off the highways) around the country with my family. (My wife has my old GPS "puck," too, and it works well with my 800w, but the built-in GPS was supposed to make this unnecessary. I even sold my own (with my old 700w), when I bought the 800w thinking I wouldn't need it again.
    Palm III -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Dell Axim X5 Advanced -> Dell Axim X3i -> Dell Axim X50v -> Cingular 8125 -> Sprint Palm Treo 700Wx -> ->Palm Treo 700P (my wife's but I played with it ) -> Sprint Mogul -> Treo 800w -> Touch Pro & Treo Pro.
  20. #60  
    I think the point is we got a CYA (cover your a__) answer that redefines Standalone GPS, instead of a fix. The language in the knowledge base article is Orwellian. And more about protecting themselves than a serious answer from a company trying to regain long lost eminence in their market.

    So, for the sake of clarification, the 800w is standalone for operation, but is strictly aGPS for initialization.
    Respectfully, this is the logical equivalent of a device requiring an evdo connection before "initializing" a wifi connection. Also I lose my GPS if "initialized" with aGPS about 10 to 15 minutes after loss of a Sprint signal. This occurs under perfect GPS situations. Ebagg, I am not questioning your test, but I and others have tested this and lose the signal fairly quickly.

    This is a very very disappointing response from Palm and I feel very strongly they falsely advertised this.

    The fact is that there are going to be flaws and bugs with any device.
    Yes, but:
    a) Serious companies don't simply redefine what a feature is.
    b) Again, respectfully, Palm is the one who chose to list this as one of the top features. This is not like a speaker that falls below the average, or a bug caused by several programs open at once, etc. Palm itself advertised "Standalone GPS" as a primary feature.
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