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  1. #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Yes a year is a year. And the Treo Pro crowd has stand alone and aGPS.
    Whether the Pro crowd has stand alone GPS has no relevance to the fact that the chipset is, for all intents and purposes, a year old.

    If I built a car, called the Ebag MK100, and used Toyota seats in it...and Toyota sued me and won, so I used different seats and called it the Ebag MK101, would you consider it a different car?

    Furthermore, the 7000A is simply a smaller version of the 7000, which was released in 2006. So you're actually using a 2006 chipset.

    Of course the exact same applies to the 6800A chipset, which IIRC the 6800 was also a 2006 chipset.

    So in reality we're both using nearly 3 year old chipsets.
  2. #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So Malatesta, if I set a reminder for July 14, 2009 and we still don't have stand alone GPS as we would define it by then. Will you then accept that the Treo 800w won't be getting a fix? I mean, will a year from the release of the device convince you? I've already stated, if we get a fix, I'd be shocked. But I would like to know how long it will be before you admit when it comes to GPS, we've been ditched?
    Quite simple really.

    Outside of major OS revisions ordered up by the carrier (e.g. WM6.1), which I don't expect or massive guffaws (Moto Q had a few; Mogul and BT was another), most devices get ONE ROM update during the device's life. I expect only one ROM update for the 800w on Sprint.

    Ergo, when the Treo 800w gets its service ROM update, if the GPS issue is not fixed (or Palm has not addressed it), then to me it is obvious that for "Reason X" it won't be on the Treo 800.

    Since I don't work for Palm or Qualcomm and neither do you, if no update addresses the GPS, we'll actually never know why it was not.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  3. #283  
    Ebag333, I just disagree with you and the Ebag MK101 is not the Ebag MK100. Even courts of law agree. Besides, the paint on the Ebag MK101 is newer too .

    Now regarding the question I asked Mal, how about you? Will a year be enough to convince you?
  4. #284  
    Malatesta - Palm already told you to forget about it.

    I'm not speaking on zero foundation, I'm speaking based on Palm's own reluctance to officially document that a problem exists. I'm not talking about what Palm employee X said, but Palm's official statement on the matter.
  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I'm not talking about what Palm employee X said, but Palm's official statement on the matter.
    Palm's official statement is how the device functions currently, as a CYA. It has little to do with what the engineers are doing.

    And in fact, while not officially announced (Palm would never officially announce it, just in case) it does appear to be worked on:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lman
    I would appreciate a straight answer from Palm and maybe you can press them to provide it. I have heard exclusive answers such as a) alternately it is being worked on; and b) it will never work as standalone GPS due to a qualcomm stipulation; as well as, c) answers that were not coherent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridius
    From the people I've talked to, it's answer A. That being said, we'll probably have to play the "wait and see" game.

    Keep in mind that Ridius is an official moderator on the Palm forums, meaning that he's going to be the one giving the "officially unofficial" answers.
  6. #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Malatesta - Palm already told you to forget about it.

    I'm not speaking on zero foundation, I'm speaking based on Palm's own reluctance to officially document that a problem exists. I'm not talking about what Palm employee X said, but Palm's official statement on the matter.
    lol

    So your evidence is Palm emphatically stating and standing by the notion it should 100% do standalone?

    That tells me they are confident that this will be fixed, not that they are backtracking. Why would they come out after all of this time to strongly reiterate it should be working in standalone?

    Let's wait and see as I said above, eh?

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  7. #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post

    Let's wait and see as I said above, eh?
    I'll let you and Ebag333 wait. Just don't hold your breath .
  8. #288  
    Ridius also had this to say:
    ...
    With all that being said, I've talked to some people at Palm and they are working on some things. So before I get flamed off the boards, let's see what they come out with.
    ...
    and

    I just wanted to clarify a couple things. First, I'm not a Palm support person. I'm a volunteer who helps out on the forums and has been recognized for my knowledge (as is the case with all the Moderators. Only the people labeled Tech Support work for Palm).
    ...
    Well I'm not going to hold my breath. I'll doubt Palm till Palm shows me better than their lame duck statement.

    And as I've asked before, even if they fixed it, how will they compensate for the fact customers paid in full up front for the feature and went months without what they paid for?

    And an interesting comment at the very end (currently the very end) of that thread by someone using the handle pgh1969pa.
    The BBB has no regulatory authority. The Federal Trade Commission has 50 state juristition in prosecuting false, deceptive, and fraudulant claims by business and corporate bodies. Why not the FTC? State AGs and the FTC are the proper legal channels for those who feel mislead.
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Palm's official statement is how the device functions currently, as a CYA. It has little to do with what the engineers are doing.
    And in fact, while not officially announced (Palm would never officially announce it, just in case) it does appear to be worked on:
    Keep in mind that Ridius is an official moderator on the Palm forums, meaning that he's going to be the one giving the "officially unofficial" answers.
    Ebag, Respectfully, looking at that exchange, it is from August and before the Knowledge Base article.

    The Knowledgebase article is not simply CYA it is an assertion of a definition, (laughable and patronizing as it it to Palm's own customers) that serves to so muddy the terminology and claim the device works as advertised.

    Let's not forget that this Thread's first post is by someone getting a higher up at Palm on this specific issue and that after they (and we waited) the higher up pointed to the KB post as the resolution.

    here is the answer:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...1&postcount=43

    (this also really goes to the assertion by some that we had 30 days. Before 30 days we had been hearing a fix was being worked on, but 45 days later we get the KB tripe as the only real response)

    Undoubtably Palm reads this thread. In fact that has been related by the OP. That is why I take, not as bad faith, but as completely nonconstructive the regular piping in by some that we are better off with standalone devices. Anyone doing this with if 800w MP3 were not working, and piping in every so often with the same message -- "you are better of with an iPod" -- would be considered non helpful.

    Let's not get diverted with these discussion about the chips. It makes it seem like this has something to do with qualcomm when it comes to our rights and expectations -- which is not the case.It is Palm's responsibility.

    Palm needs to remedy the situation. Whether you believe they are "working on it" or not, or whether "working on it" consists of promulgating Faqs which are deliberately evasive and idiotic, or actually tasking a good set of engineers, we know for certain that more pressure from informed consumers equals a greater likelihood they will place enough resources to solve the problem.

    It has been almost three months. I think What Darnell is getting at is if they had a team of ten engineers working on this it owuld have been solved long ago. For all we know working on it means one guy spending a couple hours a week
    Last edited by aero; 10/10/2008 at 06:57 AM.
  10. #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    ...
    It has been almost three months. I think What Darnell is getting at is if they had a team of ten engineers working on this it owuld have been solved long ago. For all we know working on it means one guy spending a couple hours a week
    Right on Aero! Your whole comment was spot on.

    A non-employee offered a line from what they were told and then after that Palm releases an odd definition. And Aero, if you read in that thread on the Palm forum, Ridius started giving that same odd definition of stand alone GPS. Ridius certainly made it clear he did not feel the 800w performed as it should, but Ridius floated the (what we feel is a) bogus definition.

    Bottom line is we have no fix and Palm's only run for cover.

    And their statement is one other thing, a means of avoiding having to live up to their own 1 year product warranty. By them deeming the matter not to be a product defect, but working as advertised. They've implicitly declared nobody can return a device during the 1 year Palm product warranty period, with GPS being cited as defective. If you also noticed in that Palm forum, people tried to return after 30 days because of the GPS issue and were denied.

    Now I totally doubt Palm will actually fix the issue, but even if they did, how will they compensate customers for the money they paid with months of no stand alone GPS? And what about those customers who attempted to return the device and were denied? Will the fix come with an admission of defectiveness from Palm and a form of compensation for those who were denied the ability to exercise the warranty return option?

    Palm has covered their butts, closed the door and in my opinion turned their backs.
  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Palm has covered their butts, closed the door and in my opinion turned their backs.
    100% correct.
  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    my iPod is a better music device, in comparison to every smartphone in the world.
    I consider my Treo to be a replacement but I can understand your logic.

    However, I can't agree with you on the iPod comment... ;-)
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  13. #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    I consider my Treo to be a replacement but I can understand your logic.

    However, I can't agree with you on the iPod comment... ;-)
    Nor can I.
  14.    #294  
    I haven't been monitoring this thread as much as I would have liked to, but I would like to get back in touch with the high-level Palm contact that I had been initially corresponding with regarding the GPS situation. However, I was hoping that since there has been a lot of discussion on Palm's KB post, someone can provide me with some insight to take back to my Palm contact.

    Here are my observations regarding the Palm KB article (and feel free to correct me if I get something wrong):

    - In the KB article it specifically mentions "Stand-alone GPS is used when the cellular radio is off..." (it actually mentions this twice), but then in the same article it states that to use stand-alone GPS you need to turn the cellular radio on. It would seem this is a pretty big contradiction? (I know they address this somewhat a little later in the article, but it still feels as if they are contradicting themselves somewhat since they specifically state that the standalone GPS can be used when the device "is not connected to the cellular network" and it would seem that in this case, the device wouldn't be able to get system time from network)

    - Perhaps we can get in touch with some GPS engineers (I don't know a lot about how the GPS system first came to be, but since it isn't that old, I imagine that there are still people around that worked on it or currently support the existing satellite global positioning system) and ask them to confirm whether or not acquisition of system time is necessary for a GPS location fix - if it isn't, we have a very valid (and backed-up) argument to take back to Palm (and maybe we can also get them to define what standalone means and then take this definition back to Palm).

    - Has anyone been able to make standalone mode work? It would seem to me that despite what Palm posts, if absolutely no one can make it work, then something is not right...

    Please feel free to discuss these points (or point out any flaws in them), or offer some additional ones. At some point in the near future I will then contact Palm again to see what they have to say. Thanks.
  15. #295  
    Hi mbressman, regarding the 3 points you raised.

    1. In my opinion, the KB article is total contradictory double speak. They start it with the statement "Your Treo 800w smartphone supports both stand-alone GPS and Assisted GPS (A-GPS). " And then go on to talk about how it needs a cell signal to start. To me, that's aGPS, nothing more. Bottom line, if I can't stand on any part of planet earth with clear sight to at least 3 GPS sats and get a lock, I can't see how it can be called "stand alone". To me personally, Palm's statement is bogus. And no amount of paperwork they bury us with is going to make me think otherwise, when I've used true stand along GPS units before. This is about function, if I'm on the DMZ of North and South Korea and this thing can't help me (even with 3rd party mapping software) know which way to walk next, it's not stand alone GPS. Sprint and Verizon don't have coverage on most of planet earth.

    2. All GPS units need the system time. Issue is, a true stand alone GPS unit can acquire even the initial system time from the GPS sats, the Treo 800w cannot. This is why I feel the Treo 800w is aGPS and nothing more.

    3. Only by Palm's (in my personal opinion bogus) definition. Nobody has been able to start up the GPS apart from a cell signal. When somebody can start the GPS on the Treo 800w with no cell signal at all, I'll say it has stand alone GPS.
  16. #296  
    mbressman, thanks for your concern on this.


    The current stock answer from Palm is that GPS needs system time from a tower. That is if course a falsehood. But I don't blame you from wondering about this from the FAQ because it isn't designed to inform, it is designed to disinform.

    As Darnell pointed out, even dirt cheap GPS devices and smartphones capable of actual standalone GPS all get system time from the satellites. the 800W doesn't work as standalone because the ability to get initial network time from the satellite is disabled and it gets it second hand from tower instead. That's right, second hand. CDMA doesn't inherently have the system time of GPS satellites, but CDMA towers have a GPS receiver on them. So the 800w is getting its system time from satellites -- via the Sprint tower.

    You are right in seeing that Palm's FAQ contradicts itself on the core issue, but that is because it wasn't written by engineers, it appears to have been written by lawyers. Who ever wrote it surely doesn't understand GPS or the terminology.

    On an eventual fix, I feel that after three months, and with the shutdown of responses from Palm except referral to the FAQ, that they cant fix it for legal reasons. There is a chance that there is an inherent hardware limitation (example miscalculation on multiplexed antenna) that escaped their notice, and it has to be a pretty stupid limitation oversight since it the limit doesnt exist on several on older phones and newer smaller phones. But I think it is legal and that Qualcomm won't allow it because of the Broadcom patent suit. DEvices that were FCC approved before a certain point were not constrained. Newer chips may not e so constrained. But the specific chip in t he 800w, given when the 800w was approved might be exactly in the bad spot for standalone GPS.
  17. #297  
    Why oh why did Palm use such old, janky chips in the 800w? They had to have seen all of these problems coming.
  18. #298  
    Palm has contacted me regarding my BBB complaint- agreeing that the network requires a handshake to pull system time- and this is not what I expected standalone GPS to be.

    Whether the satelite or the Sprint tower is producing the signal- he was not sure. However this information was only relayed to him by a level 3 tech.

    In any event- Palm is purchasing back my phone for my purchase price, and I am already the user of a Beautiful HTC Touch Pro with a nice full keyboard set.
  19. #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by grant516 View Post
    and I am already the user of a Beautiful HTC Touch Pro with a nice full keyboard set.
    Hope you enjoy the Touch Pro (honestly). Of course, it has it's own problems. *shrug*
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by grant516 View Post
    Palm has contacted me regarding my BBB complaint- agreeing that the network requires a handshake to pull system time- and this is not what I expected standalone GPS to be.

    Whether the satelite or the Sprint tower is producing the signal- he was not sure. However this information was only relayed to him by a level 3 tech.

    In any event- Palm is purchasing back my phone for my purchase price, and I am already the user of a Beautiful HTC Touch Pro with a nice full keyboard set.
    Good for you grant516. Now if Palm will honor the return requests of all the other folks who have attempted to return their device as defective, they'll be owning up to things well.

    They've responded to you to protect their reputation in terms of BBB complaints. The fact they responded to your complaint with a full refund, in my opinion further refutes Palm's efforts to try and claim the Treo 800w is a standalone GPS and aGPS device.

    Well, Sprint has the Treo Pro likely coming and I guess anyone who does not mind leaving Sprint can get an HTC Touch Pro or whatever else. Anyone wanting such because they're ticked about the GPS matter needs to get their BBB complaint on file. Everyone who has been denied a return, you now know what to do.

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