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  1. #261  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    Because of my PDA I use my laptop less, sold my 4.3 inch color screen MIO GPS unit for my truck, my digital camera has dust on it and sold my IPOD.

    I think Sprint Navigation (Telenav) on my phone is so much better than many portable GPS units selling right now.

    Back on topic. I am so over the standalone GPS thing in this thread. It's getting old, even for me. It is what it is. I find the battery life and crappy audio on the earpiece better material to gripe about.
    Wait until you lose signal in the middle of nowhere with a tricky interchange coming up. You'll complain.
  2. #262  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    LOL. I've been using a BT GPS w/ Treos going as far back as the 650. I never felt the need to get a dedicated GPS. It just works.
    I was using a GPS hookup with my Treo 600 back when. And yea I had to keep the GPS receiver up near the windshield to ensure connection to the sats, but it worked. And it didn't care if there was a Sprint signal. And I never was moaning it took too long to start-up either. Because every stand alone GPS unit I've used, having to wait an extended period of time for an initial sat connection was irregular. Typically it did not take very long. Considering how long it takes for the Sprint data connection to start up, all things seem about equal with the Treo 800w's aGPS and stand alone GPS units I've used, in terms of start-up times.

    Given experience using GPS with a Treo before the 800w, I certainly had no thoughts of getting any separate GPS units.
  3. #263  
    whats the deal with this standalone GPS
    is Palm going to come up with a patch ? or are we never
    going to be able to use the GPS in the Treo800
    its not working and I'm not happy about this since I've been
    a treo users since the 300 I have had every model since then
    I thinks it time to start looking at the HTC Stuff that coming out
    Mark
  4. #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by gibby View Post
    whats the deal with this standalone GPS
    is Palm going to come up with a patch ? or are we never
    going to be able to use the GPS in the Treo800
    its not working and I'm not happy about this since I've been
    a treo users since the 300 I have had every model since then
    I thinks it time to start looking at the HTC Stuff that coming out
    Mark
    If you want working GPS, get an HTC. Palm will never be able to fix the 800w's bugs.
  5. #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    No I agree, I'm just stating that within in a few years, all new cars will have GPS built in--they're becoming the new CD player: used to be luxury, now is standard. But everyone one of us here will have different preferences, so it's no point in debating those--I was just merely bringing up the other side to show that some of us would still prefer a dedicated system.
    The same arguments would point to why it is silly to have MP3 or Wifi on a 800w. This logic leads to the question of why anyone would buy a treo at all, after all dedicated devices do everything the 800W does better!

    Why surf the web on that tiny screen? so let's not hear any issues of the browser.

    By the way, the CD player became standard on cars when people like the users of treocental were moving to MP3! GPS is very far from being standard on vehicles. On the car I just bought it is a $1500 option.
    Last edited by aero; 10/09/2008 at 08:57 AM.
  6. #266  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    The same arguments would point to why it is silly to have MP3 or Wifi on a 800w. This logic leads to the question of why anyone would buy a treo at all, after all dedicated devices do everything the 800W does better!

    Why surf the web on that tiny screen? so let's not hear any issues of the browser.

    By the way, the CD player became standard on cars when people like the users of treocental were moving to MP3! GPS is very far from being standard on vehicles. On the car I just bought it is a $1500 option.
    Palm also disagrees with his assessments since they added full GPS to the Treo Pro and decided it was important enough to list it in the 800w's specs.
  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny View Post
    Palm also disagrees with his assessments since they added full GPS to the Treo Pro and decided it was important enough to list it in the 800w's specs.
    Remember that the Treo Pro isn't really a Palm product. It uses current technology and has a chipset from 2008. The poor 800w is saddled with years old technology and design.
  8. #268  
    Quote Originally Posted by nsxprime View Post
    Remember that the Treo Pro isn't really a Palm product. It uses current technology and has a chipset from 2008. The poor 800w is saddled with years old technology and design.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    MSM7500 was introduced/announced by Qualcomm in July 2005; the MSM6800A was announced in May 2007.

    The primary chipset in the 800w is less than a year and a half old. Considering design, development, testing, etc time, that is actually quite young. (Especially if you take into account the fact that Sprint was not the original carrier and the 800w was delayed in it's release.)

    Additionally I believe the 800w was the first (official) device with WM6.1. WM 6.1 was announced April 1, 2008, meaning from the point when it was announced to when the 800w was released was only a few months.

    So we have a chipset that's a year and a half old (less, really), and an OS that was literally released (in the sense that an embedded OS can be "released") the day the 800w came out.

    The only thing I would agree with the statement above is that the design is years old. The basic idea of the Treo hasn't changed (at least until the Treo Pro) since the 650's (and even really the basic idea was there with the 600's). That would make it a design that harkens all the way back to 2003, ancient in tech terms.

    But I would argue in favor of that, not against it. You don't change a time proven design. You don't reinvent the wheel. You don't build a better mouse trap. (And even the Treo Pro is very similar to the standard Palm design.)


    Finally, you say that the Treo Pro uses hardware from 2008. Care to prove that statement, since I can't find anywhere that the chipset used in the Treo Pro is listed anywhere?
  9. #269  
    Ebag333, the Treo Pro uses the MSM7201A, which was released this year. The release dates between the 800w and Treo Pro were months, but their chips differ by about a year.

    The MSM7201 chipset is so current, Qualcomm still lists it on their current web pages. And it's still played up by Qualcomm in current news releases. The MSM6800A is the one that you'll have a hard time finding pages about on Qualcomm's current site. In regards to what Qualcomm is promoting, the chipset in the Treo 800w is OLD.

    Keep in mind, we're talking about computer chips. A year is not a short amount of time.
  10. #270  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Ebag333, the Treo Pro uses the MSM7201A, which was released this year. The release dates between the 800w and Treo Pro were months, but their chips differ by about a year.

    The MSM7201 chipset is so current, Qualcomm still lists it on their current web pages. And it's still played up by Qualcomm in current news releases. The MSM6800A is the one that you'll have a hard time finding pages about on Qualcomm's current site. In regards to what Qualcomm is promoting, the chipset in the Treo 800w is OLD.

    Keep in mind, we're talking about computer chips. A year is not a short amount of time.
    Darnell, you have this backwards.

    The reason why you cannot find info on older chipsets from Qualcomm is because the underlying technology that is on them is (was) in dispute with Broadcom and they were advised to pull the information. Qualcomm has lost that case and is now required to pay Broadcom.

    For awhile when you went to the site and looked it up, they said as much.

    The msm7201a as you'll notice is a msm7200a revision chip (e.g. the "01" marker)--specifically it bypasses the alleged Broadcom infractions, hence why info (data sheets) are available.

    The new (and popular) Samsung Instinct also uses the same chipset (msm6800a). It is not old as last year's Mogul used a chipset from 2005. This is common practice. Qualcomm will now start using the "01" chips as they lost.

    Qualcomm simply cannot promote msm6500, 6800, 7200, 7500 (and their "a" versions) anymore since they use Broadcomm's tech and were found guilty by the courts.

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  11. #271  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    The release dates between the 800w and Treo Pro were months, but their chips differ by about a year.
    The short release dates were not intentional. They were due to the delay in moving from 6.0 to 6.1, not a trivial task.

    I have no doubt that Palm intended to release the 800w early this year or even late last year. The delays were (more than likely) due to Verizon dropping the phone (and choosing to upgrade the 700wx to 6.0 instead) and Sprint only being willing to carry it if it was WM6.1.


    And a year from chipset release to device release is actually not a long time when you're talking about this sort of device. Heck, I spent several months setting up WM6 for the 700, and that was with working with a finished product and just tweaking it. Building the entire OS from scratch would be a far more daunting task.

    Not to mention getting approvals, testing the device, etc etc etc etc.


    There's also a lot of it being set in stone once you start. Since you have to get a slew of approvals pretty much right off the bat, you have to lock down the hardware your device is using. And since the MSM7201A wasn't available when the 800w was first being built, it wasn't even an option on the table. For Palm to move from the 6800A to the 7201A would have basically meant scrapping everything they had and starting over, a move that honestly would have made little to no difference in the final product (feature wise the Pro is very similar to the 800w), would have pushed back the release date even further, and would have cost them a small fortune.

    It simply would not have made sense.

    It's really unfortunate in one sense that the 800w was delayed as much as it was. If it had been released say in Jan then this discussion would never have come up. On the other hand, being upgraded to 6.1 is a huge plus, and IMHO well worth the delay.
  12. #272  
    Malatesta, thanks for the details about our chipset being part of the Broadcom dispute. I've known about that lawsuit, but didn't know our chips were part of that.

    Now Malatesta, the MSM6800A in the Treo 800w was released last year, correct? The MSM7201A in the Treo Pro was released this year, correct?

    There's a years difference and a legal pile between the two chipsets.

    The fact the MSM6800A is part of a line in the Broadcom dispute only lowers the odds we'll see any updates for it.
  13. #273  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Malatesta, thanks for the details about our chipset being part of the Broadcom dispute. I've known about that lawsuit, but didn't know our chips were part of that.

    Now Malatesta, the MSM6800A in the Treo 800w was released last year, correct? The MSM7201A in the Treo Pro was released this year, correct?

    There's a years difference and a legal pile between the two chipsets.

    The fact the MSM6800A is part of a line in the Broadcom dispute only lowers the odds we'll see any updates for it.
    Well first, MSM6800 and msm7200 are just flat out different chips.

    The CDMA version would have been the MSM-7501a, which is used in the Sprint Touch Diamond: same chip as the 2005 MSM-7500, just uses some software tricks to bypass Broadcom's technology. That and the "a" signifies the smaller die (68nm).

    Regardless, the MSM-7201/7501 are not really "new" chipsets. There is no underlying "better" technology in them compared to their older "00" brethren. They are just "legally sound" chips. For instance, one of the alleged patents was over QChat, which is something our phones do not use. So a lot of the "workarounds" don't effect our devices.

    GPS/aGPS (GPSOne) was never a patent disupte, so that is just all Qualcomm.

    New, btw, for Qualcomm is Snapdragon.

    Qualcomm still has to support their chipsets though, regardless of court rulings and the msm-6800a was imported before the court ruling, so it's just a financial payout to Broadcom (Verizon, btw, paid Broadcom directly to avoid any injunction problems).

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  14. #274  
    Ebag333 - You realize that regardless of the reasons, the chipset in our Treo 800w is about a year older than what is in the Treo Pro. You asked about the Treo Pro's chip release and now you know. We didn't get our 800ws in January, we got them in July, so it's a matter of concern given the MSM6800A is now dated/old.

    And a year from chipset release to device release is actually not a long time when you're talking about this sort of device.
    I'll just have to stay in disagreement with you about that.

    And we have the added wrinkle of the MSM6800A being part of the Broadcom lawsuit.

    NO WONDER Palm came with that lame statement. I think the Treo 800w is going to be an aGPS device it's entire lifespan and will be shocked at this point if that changes. I felt that way before and now I really feel that way even more.
  15. #275  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    And we have the added wrinkle of the MSM6800A being part of the Broadcom lawsuit.

    NO WONDER Palm came with that lame statement. I think the Treo 800w is going to be an aGPS device it's entire lifespan and will be shocked at this point if that changes. I felt that way before and now I really feel that way even more.
    Probably around 90% of Qualcomm's current CDMA chips are named in the lawsuit.

    The Mogul, Touch, Q9c on Sprint are all under that and to suggest that Qualcomm has ended support for those chipsets is completely unfounded. The MSM-7501 was Qualcomm's last resort and not their preferred solution and hence they were not mass produced or widely available. To do so would be a tacit admission of guilt on their part.

    You really have to demonstrate more than just release dates to actually argue that the MSM-7501a is a much better chip than the MSM-6800a, espeically since both use the same GPS receiver: RFR-6500.

    Show me stats, specs and details, not release dates.

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  16. #276  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Now Malatesta, the MSM6800A in the Treo 800w was released last year, correct? The MSM7201A in the Treo Pro was released this year, correct?

    There's a years difference and a legal pile between the two chipsets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    The msm7201a as you'll notice is a msm7200a revision chip (e.g. the "01" marker)--specifically it bypasses the alleged Broadcom infractions, hence why info (data sheets) are available.
    http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a7200a

    Type: MSM7200A
    Manufacturer: Qualcomm
    Year_Released: 2007
    So while the MSM7201A was released this year, it's simply the MSM7200A with minor changes to get around Broadcom's claims.

    Guess it's not really a year apart.
  17. #277  
    Malatesta - Let me show you this, while Touch Diamond owners had some complaints, they are now (see the end parts of the thread) are getting aGPS and stand alone working. And look where we are with our Treo 800ws.

    Bottom line, we don't have it working as advertised and I highly doubt it ever will.
  18. #278  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Guess it's not really a year apart.
    Yes a year is a year. And the Treo Pro crowd has stand alone and aGPS.
  19. #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Malatesta - Let me show you this, while Touch Diamond owners had some complaints, they are now (see the end parts of the thread) are getting aGPS and stand alone working. And look where we are with our Treo 800ws.

    Bottom line, we don't have it working as advertised and I highly doubt it ever will.
    Yes, I posted here on the "aGPS" working on the Touch Diamond--it's not easy and requires you to re-flash the radio drivers.

    It's a clever hack, but the Touch Diamond does not do aGPS out of the box. Due to the plethora of HTC devices, hacking their bootloader is cake.

    The last part is simply your opinion based on (imo) erroneous speculation.

    I disagree and I'm just merely correcting the facts of the matter--lots of guessing is going on here without proper history and context.

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  20. #280  
    So Malatesta, if I set a reminder for July 14, 2009 and we still don't have stand alone GPS as we would define it by then. Will you then accept that the Treo 800w won't be getting a fix? I mean, will a year from the release of the device convince you? I've already stated, if we get a fix, I'd be shocked. But I would like to know how long it will be before you admit when it comes to GPS, we've been ditched?

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