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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Car makers don't get away with this kind of junk. Selling stuff that fails to have what was advertised as a MAJOR feature of the product.

    It's not about "cutting edge" or "a lot coming together" (far more goes into making cars), device manufacturers fail to deliver, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH IT.
    Bingo. As long as there are uninformed consumers who don't mind looking like fools when they don't get what they pay for and then try to justify it afterwards, companies will continue to sell buggy products. Let's all hope that the Treo Pro becomes a reality on CDMA because all of HTC's phones can do aGPS and standalone GPS perfectly.

    Our only hope is that the Verizon 800w doesn't have the buggy GPS and we can somehow get our Sprint versions to work correctly. Given that Verizon actively tries to cripple the GPS on its phones, I can't imagine there being much hope of this happening.
  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Actually a true statement.
    If one never read orwell you might think so. You are lecturing others on English language usage in a way fraught with irony.

    What you are saying is the same as saying a 59 chevy is a hybrid Gas Electric because it has a battery.

    You are making a classic tautological logic error.

    Malatesta said: "all aGPS systems can do standalone GPS; not all standalone GPS systems can do aGPS.." This is a incorrect statement WE own 800Ws that prove it false.
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    If one never read orwell you might think so. You are lecturing others on English language usage in a way fraught with irony.

    What you are saying is the same as saying a 59 chevy is a hybrid Gas Electric because it has a battery.

    You are making a classic tautological logic error.

    Malatesta said: "all aGPS systems can do standalone GPS; not all standalone GPS systems can do aGPS.." This is a incorrect statement WE own 800Ws that prove it false.
    Owning an 800W does not prove it false. Malatesta said aGPS systems CAN do standalone GPS. He did not say all aGPS systems DO standalone GPS. CAN and DO are two different things. Just because aGPS is capable of standalone GPS does not mean it has been enabled.

    I think I'm paraphrasing Mal correctly.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  4. #204  
    My buddy got his Treo Pro yesterday and its sweet. Needless to say it was easy to test standalone and it works flawlessly as advertised. We used TomTom since there is no branded application on an unlocked unbranded device. I have to throw in this thread that all the items I *****ed about with the 800 are all resolved with the Pro (battery life great, excellent earpeice quality, it gets calls no matter what you are doing, audio jack and more). Love the device. Wish it were on CDMA.
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    Owning an 800W does not prove it false. Malatesta said aGPS systems CAN do standalone GPS. He did not say all aGPS systems DO standalone GPS. CAN and DO are two different things. Just because aGPS is capable of standalone GPS does not mean it has been enabled.

    I think I'm paraphrasing Mal correctly.
    That is accurate.

    It's my contention (and Qualcomm's) that the msm-6800a (specifically rfr6500 receiver) can do all forms of GPS: standalone, assisted, hybrid and ms based.

    It's also my contention (and Qualcomm's) that all of their GPSOne chips can do the above as well, if configured properly and enabled. The choice of configuration and enabling features is a decision by the manufacturer, often with approval by the customer (who is usually the carrier).

    Since the 800w cannot do standalone (or rather, almost can) it looks to be a "bug" at either the implementation or driver level (though one cannot rule out some accidental hardware/engineering limitation). It's up to Qualcomm and Palm to figure the "why" it's not working the way Qualcomm says it can.

    The Verizon xv-6800/6900 demonstrates that the rfr6500 receiver (same as the Treo 800w) can be controlled at the hardware level to limit and/or block usage of aGPS (including GPS) functionality.

    The Sprint BB8830 (world phone) also has the RFR6500 receiver (MSM6550) and it has its GPS limited too, though no where is this mentioned in the advertising. In fact, this is what the Sprint Data Sheet says on the 8830: "GPS: Built-in capabilities (assisted, autonomous and simultaneous)" (.pdf) and yet "No, the GPS chipset on the 8830 is disabled when the device is in GSM/GPRS mode due to Qualcomm requirement. "

    End of story/can't be much clearer than that.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10/01/2008 at 09:59 PM.

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  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantRedGT View Post
    My buddy got his Treo Pro yesterday and its sweet. Needless to say it was easy to test standalone and it works flawlessly as advertised. We used TomTom since there is no branded application on an unlocked unbranded device. I have to throw in this thread that all the items I *****ed about with the 800 are all resolved with the Pro (battery life great, excellent earpeice quality, it gets calls no matter what you are doing, audio jack and more). Love the device. Wish it were on CDMA.
    Awesome. Maybe Palm should contract with HTC to help them fix the problems in the 800w.
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    Owning an 800W does not prove it false. Malatesta said aGPS systems CAN do standalone GPS. He did not say all aGPS systems DO standalone GPS. CAN and DO are two different things. Just because aGPS is capable of standalone GPS does not mean it has been enabled.

    I think I'm paraphrasing Mal correctly.
    Except that is wrong. Not all devices with aGPS can do standalone, that is a demonstrable fact and one he got completely wrong. He is parsing a discussion on the PHONE to the chip alone. That is silly. That is like saying a 67 VW Beetle can do 250 miles an hour because certain components in the 67 Beetle are present on vehciles, real or hypothetical, that have or can do 200 mph.

    If VW were advertising it in 67 as a 250 mph vehicle, and on the the top list of its advertised features, on the basis of such logic, you would claim this is a valid view?
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Except that is wrong. Not all devices with aGPS can do standalone, that is a demonstrable fact and one he got completely wrong. He is parsing a discussion on the PHONE to the chip alone. That is silly. That is like saying a 67 VW Beetle can do 250 miles an hour because certain components in the 67 Beetle are present on vehciles, real or hypothetical, that have or can do 200 mph.

    If VW were advertising it in 67 as a 250 mph vehicle, and on the the top list of its advertised features, on the basis of such logic, you would claim this is a valid view?
    Well, I guess time will tell if he's accurate. From what little I have read at some other sites, I'm inclined to believe him on these particular chipsets.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  9. #209  
    Well my Treo 800w may be capable of working as a teleportation device, but if nobody ever makes that feature work, it really does not mean anything .
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well my Treo 800w may be capable of working as a teleportation device, but if nobody ever makes that feature work, it really does not mean anything .
    Haha. Maybe a hardware upgrade?
    ATT History- From 1997-2001-> Nokia 6362->Motorola StarTac->Nokia 8260.

    Nextel History From 2001-2004-> Motorola i1000-> Motorola i90c-> Motorola i95cl-> Motorola i730->Motorola i850.

    Sprint History From 2005 - Currently->Sanyo 5500-> Sanyo 5600-> Sanyo-> 7400->Sanyo 8300->Sanyo->7500-> Sanyo 9000->Sanyo 8400->Sanyo M1->PPC-6700->Treo 700wx->PPC-6800(Mogul)-> Motorola Q9C-> Treo 800w-> Curve->Treo 800w->Touch Pro->Treo Pro> Curve "M"->HTC Hero.
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Except that is wrong. Not all devices with aGPS can do standalone, that is a demonstrable fact and one he got completely wrong. He is parsing a discussion on the PHONE to the chip alone. That is silly. That is like saying a 67 VW Beetle can do 250 miles an hour because certain components in the 67 Beetle are present on vehciles, real or hypothetical, that have or can do 200 mph.

    If VW were advertising it in 67 as a 250 mph vehicle, and on the the top list of its advertised features, on the basis of such logic, you would claim this is a valid view?
    *sigh*

    Stick your head a little deeper in the sand, Aero. I think I see a toe sticking up.


    All devices with aGPS have the capability to do stand alone GPS IF the device maker:

    1) Licensed the functionality.
    2) Did not lock it down. (*cough*Verizon*cough*)
    3) Uses the correct firmware.
    4) Uses the correct drivers.
    5) Uses software that supports it.
    6) Configures everything correctly.
    7) No bugs occur.

    In every single case where an aGPS device does not do GPS, it is because one of those steps was not done.

    #2 is the most common that you see, along with 3 or 4.



    Just because you can point to a device that does not do GPS (only aGPS) does not mean that the device could not have done GPS if setup correctly. This has been proven time and time and time and time again with devices that were locked down, missing drivers, or incorrectly setup having GPS (or aGPS) enabled.

    Mal's given at least half a dozen examples. I've given examples. You're now sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "aGPS can't do GPS aGPS can't do GPS aGPS can't do GPS."
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Mal's given at least half a dozen examples. I've given examples. You're now sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "aGPS can't do GPS aGPS can't do GPS aGPS can't do GPS."
    *** Sigh ***

    You have now given a bucket of conditions, which is to say you now agree with Darnell, myself and others.

    First Mal said"all" and now you are giving the very conditions we cite.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    Well, I guess time will tell if he's accurate. From what little I have read at some other sites, I'm inclined to believe him on these particular chipsets.
    The thread is not about the chipsets, it is about the device. We are talking about the device. Please consult thread title.

    He also has told us it in the past was coming with a different chip set and Palm was making an extended battery due to beta feedback on bad battery life.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Well my Treo 800w may be capable of working as a teleportation device, but if nobody ever makes that feature work, it really does not mean anything .
    Exactly.

    If Palm had advertised teleportation we have a couple of posters who think that since a teleportation device on it might have an LCD on it, then because the 800w has an LCD it "can" teleport -- with a footnote that some other parts or drivers were needed!
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    You have now given a bucket of conditions, which is to say you now agree with Darnell, myself and others.

    First Mal said"all" and now you are giving the very conditions we cite.
    Those conditions were simply ripped out of Mal and my posts previously. It's nothing new and nothing we haven't said before.

    You've stated that it's impossible for an aGPS device to do GPS. Darnell has repeatedly said that the chipset in the 800w is incapable of GPS, despite the technical specs directly from Qualcomm stating so.

    Neither statement do I agree with.


    As for my list:

    1) Licensed the functionality.
    Often can by bypassed with new drivers/firmware

    2) Did not lock it down. (*cough*Verizon*cough*)
    Often can by bypassed with new drivers/firmware

    3) Uses the correct firmware.
    Often can by bypassed with new drivers/firmware

    4) Uses the correct drivers.
    Often can by bypassed with new drivers/firmware

    5) Uses software that supports it.
    Can be bypassed with software that supports GPS

    6) Configures everything correctly.
    Can be bypassed with correct configuration

    7) No bugs occur.
    Can be bypassed with drivers/firmware/config/software.


    Once again, this has been proven over and over again on different devices. The fact that you ignore these examples simple shows that you don't want to believe it's possible that the 800w can do so as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    The thread is not about the chipsets, it is about the device. We are talking about the device. Please consult thread title..
    Pretty sure it's about both.

    If we're talking about the device then we are talking about the chipset.

    Mal has simply said that the chipset is capable of GPS. Please point out where Mal said that the 800w actually did do GPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    He also has told us it in the past was coming with a different chip set and Palm was making an extended battery due to beta feedback on bad battery life.
    The chipset that he previously mentioned was a guess, it was unknown at that point nor did Mal state that it was for sure coming with the chipset he guessed it was.

    Ditto on the extended battery. It was a rumor, which (suprisingly enough) isn't always true.
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    You've stated that it's impossible for an aGPS device to do GPS.
    Why not read and stop misquoting people left and right? You are just completely making it up. Where have I said that?

    You are misquoting several people in a very patronizing way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    If we're talking about the device then we are talking about the chipset.
    What? Another senseless tautology. If the tires on the 67 Beetle can go 250 mph then it doesn't mean the car can. ok? Even the engine on the 67 beetle can go that speed if you drop it from an airplane.

    I hate to have to explain it in an elementary way, but the device is a combination of many factors from hardware to software (and even legal constraints).

    Your argument is logically the same as saying the 800W has Windows mobile and some Windows mobile phones are GSM, therefore the 800w is GSM. It is not rational.
    Last edited by aero; 10/02/2008 at 04:33 PM.
  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    You've stated that it's impossible for an aGPS device to do GPS. Darnell has repeatedly said that the chipset in the 800w is incapable of GPS, despite the technical specs directly from Qualcomm stating so.
    I think what others who disagree with you have stated, is that some aGPS chips are not capable of stand alone GPS. I feel the chip in the Treo 800w is very possibly such a chip.

    Now debating the wording or even who is right means nothing, because nobody can name a person (or company) who has definitively committed themselves to providing a fix for the problem.

    Palm has told us we have stand alone by their definition of stand alone and in my opinion their definition is bogus.

    Which means, whether stand alone GPS is there (somewhere hiding in the chip and just waiting for someone to let it out) or not, we may never get it. Which is as good as a chip that never had stand alone GPS.

    Don't prolong debate between each other guys, we don't have stand alone GPS and we all know, we just might never get it. So far, every official Palm company statement on the matter (all 1 of them) of fixing the issue as we desire has been in the negative of making any future changes.

    And Palm has no real incentive to fix it now. If they make a CDMA ready Treo Pro, most people here will buy it, or buy whatever they make after the Treo Pro. Which only makes Palm more money. I can't blame them much for these tactics they do that I find to be shady, because we customers just go buy the next thing they make anyway.

    So if you really want to, argue it up, and get your money ready for the next Treo.

    We obviously like this ->
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    *** Sigh ***

    The thread is not about the chipsets, it is about the device. We are talking about the device. Please consult thread title.
    But, it is about the chipset. Since the chipset is what makes up the GPS and is a part of the 800w. Since the chipset CAN be programmed to utilized standalone GPS, then the 800W CAN have standalone GPS if programmers allow it. Thus, we are talking about the device and its chipset.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  17. #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    But, it is about the chipset. Since the chipset is what makes up the GPS and is a part of the 800w. Since the chipset CAN be programmed to utilized standalone GPS, then the 800W CAN have standalone GPS if programmers allow it. Thus, we are talking about the device and its chipset.
    No, could be antenna. there are smany variables that have nothing to do with chipset. ok?
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    No, could be antenna. there are smany variables that have nothing to do with chipset. ok?
    Probably not in this scenario. But hey, I'm no expert.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    Probably not in this scenario. But hey, I'm no expert.
    So you disagree with Mal who has on several threads said that the plex to the antenna maybe the problem and/or one of several problems?
  20. #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    So you disagree with Mal who has on several threads said that the plex to the antenna maybe the problem and/or one of several problems?
    No, I don't really have an opinion on the antenna. I haven't done any research on it.
    Sprint 600 - 650 - 755 - Mogul - 700Wx - Centro - 800W & iPhone

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