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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Once again with gusto: aGPS IS GPS, but with an added layer/functionality/capability on top of it.
    That is true, but the point aero is making is that aGPS cannot function as standalone GPS. If you don't have network connectivity, aGPS will not work. Even though aGPS and GPS use the same satellites, aGPS cannot function as standalone GPS. Take any aGPS device out of the network and it will not work, while a standalone will. That is why it is incorrect to say that aGPS is capable of standalone GPS like Malatesta said.

    Now Ebag has said it correctly, but originally, Malatesta's inclusion of the term standalone made his statement incorrect. Is aGPS a form of GPS? Yes, it does use GPS satellites to get a location. Is it capable of standalone GPS? No, because it requires assistance to get that location
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante View Post
    Now Ebag has said it correctly, but originally, Malatesta's inclusion of the term standalone made his statement incorrect. Is aGPS a form of GPS? Yes, it does use GPS satellites to get a location. Is it capable of standalone GPS? No, because it requires assistance to get that location
    Nope, you have this wrong and Ebag and I are the same page here.

    Qualcomm defines all their "GPS" systems as aGPS. That is, their patented technology is called GPSOne and they use the umbrella term "aGPS" to mean everything from aGPS down to "standalone" mode which is an optional configuration.

    True, theoretically you could have an aGPS system that can't fall back to standalone at all--like an all electric car instead of a hybrid. That's possible.

    That is not what Qualcomm's GPSOne technology is though. All of their GPSOne chips can do everything from standalone to various versions of assisted (there are 3 types). See Cnet's article on this.

    It's right there on Qualcomm's GPSOne page:
    Supports multiple modes of GPS, inclusive of standalone, MS-Based, MS-Assisted, Hybrid, and gpsOneXTRA™ Assistance
    The chipset here that is relative is the RFR-6500 which is found in the Mogul, Touch and 800w. There is no question that it can do standalone.

    But (and this is important part),which one of those 4 modes (technically 5 with GPSOneExtra) the chipset is enabled will determine it's functionality. Just like how Verizon has their xv-6800 locked down to "only" aGPS and no standalone.

    How do you think they did that? Driver/ROM level control via the RFR-6500.

    This is no different than how various HTC devices have features that are on the chip but not enabled or how some of the Moto Q9s have wifi on board but disabled.

    The ideal is to have the system operate on aGPS and fall back to standalone when out of range. That is possible with GPSone and the RFR6500
    Last edited by Malatesta; 09/29/2008 at 01:38 PM.

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  3. #183  
    So has anyone seen a device with GPSOne be changed from what we understand to be aGPS, to be able to do both stand alone AND aGPS as we understand those terms, via a simple firmware update alone?

    Just wondering.

    I'm not asking about standalone turned into having stand alone and aGPS, but a device with aGPS of the GPSOne type turned to do both aGPS and standalone via a firmware update?

    I think it was already mentioned that the Mogul had no working GPS and got a firmware update to get both aGPS and stand alone, but that does not answer my question.
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I think it was already mentioned that the Mogul had no working GPS and got a firmware update to get both aGPS and stand alone, but that does not answer my question.
    It should... And wasn't the Touch a similar story?
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante View Post
    That is true, but the point aero is making is that aGPS cannot function as standalone GPS. If you don't have network connectivity, aGPS will not work. Even though aGPS and GPS use the same satellites, aGPS cannot function as standalone GPS. Take any aGPS device out of the network and it will not work, while a standalone will. That is why it is incorrect to say that aGPS is capable of standalone GPS like Malatesta said.

    Now Ebag has said it correctly, but originally, Malatesta's inclusion of the term standalone made his statement incorrect. Is aGPS a form of GPS? Yes, it does use GPS satellites to get a location. Is it capable of standalone GPS? No, because it requires assistance to get that location
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Nope, you have this wrong and Ebag and I are the same page here.

    How do you think they did that? Driver/ROM level control via the RFR-6500.

    This is no different than how various HTC devices have features that are on the chip but not enabled or how some of the Moto Q9s have wifi on board but disabled.

    The ideal is to have the system operate on aGPS and fall back to standalone when out of range. That is possible with GPSone and the RFR6500


    Long story short:

    Is it possible for the 800w to do (true) standalone GPS (without hardware changes)? Yes.

    Does the 800w to do (true) standalone GPS? No.

    Will the 800w to do (true) standalone GPS? Don't know.
  6. #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So has anyone seen a device with GPSOne be changed from what we understand to be aGPS, to be able to do both stand alone AND aGPS as we understand those terms, via a simple firmware update alone?

    Just wondering.
    Yes.

    Verizon's XV-6800 is aGPS only and software locked to VZ Navigator (and possibly the xv-6900, not sure)

    Re-flashing the device with custom ROM (with new radio drivers) will make it do standalone and unlock it.

    Ironically, this has gone the other direction on AT&T: their standalone GPS WM devices are now able to use aGPS (or will be able to) as AT&T just launched their aGPS network. Optus Australia enabled aGPS on their Blackjack IIs with their WM6.1 update.

    The Sprint Q9 was standalone out of the box but through registry editing can do aGPS.

    The Sprint Touch Diamond can also do aGPS (but with some advanced hacking).

    So yes, there is are lots of "back and forths" between the two modes, all involving either new radio drivers, registry editing or both and Qualcomm GPSOne chipsets.

    Most WM devices though are "standalone" only and are now getting aGPS. Most dumbphones are only aGPS with no standalone functions (no need).
    Last edited by Malatesta; 09/29/2008 at 02:10 PM.

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  7. #187  
    Once a Verizon's XV-6800 is changed to do stand alone, will it still do aGPS with Verizon also, as in either or without re-flashing ROMs back and forth?
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Once a Verizon's XV-6800 is changed to do stand alone, will it still do aGPS with Verizon also, as in either or without re-flashing ROMs back and forth?
    Yes, but you have to configure it.

    Edit: Actually it looks like the xv-6800 has locked out (by default) all GPS functionality, including aGPS and GPS.

    So people are hacking both modes on via ROMs and the above.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  9. #189  
    So I take it that what is desired has never actually been done by "supported" means? I mean device makers providing the firmware update.
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So I take it that what is desired has never actually been done by "supported" means? I mean device makers providing the firmware update.
    The device makes provided the drivers/firmware. It's just the end users providing the methods for using them. Where do you think the drivers came from?
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So I take it that what is desired has never actually been done by "supported" means? I mean device makers providing the firmware update.
    Well, the 800w is broken (in this regard) i.e. it is suppose to have standalone, but there is evidently a bug.

    That's different than offering a new functionality for the heck of it.

    I suppose going from no GPS to GPS is a pretty big deal (Sprint Mogul, Touch) and even a bigger step than going from aGPS to standalone. At least I consider that to be case. (Many swore up and down that the Mogul could not do standalone, ever, because it had no dedicated antenna. Turns out that was false.)

    People are able to "fix" Verizon phones because of sister devices being available with the correct drivers/firmware.

    But device makers do release firmware updates for bug fixes. Assuming that Palm and Qualcomm can resolve this, it would be fixed that way. Then again if someone forgot to include a bypass filter or something, than maybe not.

    Don't forget, the Mogul and Touch were both advertised as having GPS (and being "Rev A upgradeable") long before they actually got that update. It was only through constant bugging at BAW about all the bugs on the Mogul that we got them on record to finally say "RevA and GPS will happen on the Mogul" (they never said that about the Touch, though we speculated they would).

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  12. #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Don't forget, the Mogul and Touch were both advertised as having GPS (and being "Rev A upgradeable") long before they actually got that update.
    Here's the real rub, people buy these devices because they need features XY and Z. They are told by the maker the device has features XY and Z. Then they get the device, finding it only has features X and Y. Then maybe months later they come with an update for feature Z.

    This means, if the update comes 6 moths later and someone only owns the given device for a year, they only had feature Z half the time they owned the device. The device maker had all their money the entire time, the customer must always uphold their end of the deal fully! The customer had to pay in full up front, but did not get what they paid for. They got feature Z later, with no real compensation for the time lost where they were without feature Z. Although they paid for feature Z up front, with the declaration from the device maker that feature Z was in the product at the time of purchase.

    Regardless of the feature, this sort of thing leaves consumers holding the bag. Then when an update comes everybody declares everything is OK, but it left the consumer hosed for the time the device did not have the advertised feature.

    We can't get away with paying some now and giving them the rest later at zero interest, but they're getting over on consumers repeatedly.

    And in this current discussion, we don't know if they'll ever actually deliver at all. And while we knock each other over the head and soapbox.
    They still are holding the money.
  13. #193  
    Darnell, I agree with you 100%.

    But in some fairness to HTC/Palm/Qualcomm, etc: this stuff is complicated as hell and there are a lot players involved (Sprint, Qualcomm, Microsoft, Device maker). They all have to be on the same page while at the same time trying to screw each other over for profits, lol.

    Smartphones and all this tech is just starting and there are a lot of bugs to work out in implementation. This is just the price we pay for "cutting edge" technology.

    Not that this excuses things, but if you know anything about bureaucracy then multiply it by 4 different companies...eck.

    It's getting a bit better though.

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  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Whether any of this means it will be fixed on the Treo 800w, I have no idea and I'm not making predictions. I always err on the side of saying "no, it won't be fixed".
    We are in agreement there. If you want standalone GPS, the 800w is not, and probably never will be, the phone for you. Palm won't be fixing anything.
  15. #195  
    I think enough folks at Palm knew about this issue (enough to stop release or other things that they feel would have costs them more than they wanted to spend in resolving the issue beforehand) and made a decision to just run with it and their own definition of "stand alone". That's just my opinion.

    How can you possibly QA test this thing to meet specs and never recognize the issue? I can't answer that, because I don't see how that is honestly possible.

    I've worked with too many dev teams where the issues were known before release, but the "higher ups" push it out the door anyway. They could have at least changed the documentation.
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebag333 View Post
    Once again with gusto: aGPS IS GPS, but with an added layer/functionality/capability on top of it.
    Once agian, with more "gusto' Malatesta didn't say that and I did not counter that. He said:
    To be more clear: all aGPS systems can do standalone GPS; not all standalone GPS systems can do aGPS.
    What the heck is with the patronizing twisting of peoples words and the use of red?.

    He said all aGPS systems can do "Standalone GPS" -- a false statement.
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    True, theoretically you could have an aGPS system that can't fall back to standalone at all--like an all electric car instead of a hybrid. That's possible. ]
    Lol, except that is the case and the problem with the 800W. Look at the thread title. this is the 800 GPS standalone problem thread!
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Darnell, I agree with you 100%.

    But in some fairness to HTC/Palm/Qualcomm, etc: this stuff is complicated as hell and there are a lot players involved (Sprint, Qualcomm, Microsoft, Device maker). They all have to be on the same page while at the same time trying to screw each other over for profits, lol.
    This misses the point though. HTC and Qualcomm did not advertise to the consumer the standalone GPS. This is what Palm did.

    If Toyota advertises a feature in a competative market, lets' say a heated seat that isn't heated, if the maker of the seat control chip had not intended it to be heated, or if a third party manufactur had not put it together right, the answer to the consumer question would not be "it is complicated as hell" and everyones' fault.

    If "heated seats" were number three on the list of features promoted for that car it would be even more accute an issue.
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    He said all aGPS systems can do "Standalone GPS" -- a false statement.
    Actually a true statement.

    Main Entry:
    1can
    Pronunciation:
    \kən, ˈkan also ˈken; dialect ˈkin\
    Function:
    verb
    Inflected Form(s):
    past could \kəd, ˈku̇d\ ; present singular & plural can
    Etymology:
    Middle English (1st & 3d singular present indicative), from Old English; akin to Old High German kan (1st & 3d singular present indicative) know, am able, Old English cnāwan to know — more at know
    Date:
    before 12th century
    transitive verb
    1obsolete : know , understand
    2archaic : to be able to do, make, or accomplish
    intransitive verb
    archaic : to have knowledge or skill
    verbal auxiliary
    1 a: know how to <she can read> b: be physically or mentally able to <he can lift 200 pounds> c—used to indicate possibility <do you think he can still be alive><those things can happen> ; sometimes used interchangeably with may d: be permitted by conscience or feeling to <can hardly blame her> e: be made possible or probable by circumstances to <he can hardly have meant that> f: be inherently able or designed to <everything that money can buy> g: be logically or axiologically able to <2 + 2 can also be written 3 + 1> h: be enabled by law, agreement, or custom to
    2: have permission to —used interchangeably with may<you can go now if you like>
    usage Can and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility; because the possibility of one's doing something may depend on another's acquiescence, they have also become interchangeable in the sense denoting permission. The use of can to ask or grant permission has been common since the 19th century and is well established, although some commentators feel may is more appropriate in formal contexts. May is relatively rare in negative constructions (mayn't is not common); cannot and can't are usual in such contexts.
    Referance:
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/can

    Mal's statement is true if you take it as it was intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta
    To be more clear: all aGPS systems can do standalone GPS; not all standalone GPS systems can do aGPS.
    The first can ("all aGPS systems can do standalone GPS") is used in the sense of definition 1c ("used to indicate possibility") as in: "all aGPS systems have the possibility to do standalone GPS".

    The second can ("not all standalone GPS systems can do aGPS") is used in the sense of definition 1f ("be inherently able or designed to") as in: "not all standalone GPS systems are inherently able to do aGPS".


    It is true that you can (and there's that pesky word again) take a different definition of the word "can" and apply it there, which would make Mal's statement false. If Mal had mean that all aGPS systems will do GPS, then that would be false and you would be correct. But Mal intended to say that all aGPS systems have the possibility to do GPS, depending on setup, drivers, firmware, software, and licensing. Which is perfectly true, since aGPS is simply GPS with an extra layer on top.


    Mal and I are saying the exact same thing (over and over and over and over again). Both Mal and myself are saying that we're saying (or at the very least meaning) the exact same thing. Yet you state that you are not disagreeing with me, but are disagreeing with Mal.
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post

    If "heated seats" were number three on the list of features promoted for that car it would be even more accute an issue.
    Car makers don't get away with this kind of junk. Selling stuff that fails to have what was advertised as a MAJOR feature of the product.

    It's not about "cutting edge" or "a lot coming together" (far more goes into making cars), device manufacturers fail to deliver, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH IT.
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