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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm not doing that.
    I'm sorry too, and I hope you'll change your mind. Happily, most customers understand that we're trying to make the Windows Mobile media experience suck less for the people that need it most, and are happy to help us make automatic content discovery "just work".

    We accounted for all reported exceptions in our first two updates. We've had a few more reports since then, and our next update will address those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    I would suggest re-thinking your strategy and applying a well tested method like what Zune, iTunes, etc.
    Neither of those products works like you think they work.

    The Zune is closed media player. You can only put content on the Zune via a PC app (which updates the Zune's internal media directory), or through the Zune software itself (in which case it updates its own directory).

    iTunes lets you choose a single "iTunes Music folder" path. However, it's brain-dead -- if you add, remove or change anything in that folder without using iTunes, iTunes won't see it. You can also manually add the contents of a folder, but it's also a dumb, one-time operation. And if you add a folder with files that are already in your music folder, iTunes will happily pollute your library with duplicates.

    Kinoma Play's content auto-discovery is far more sophisticated than either.

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Kinoma Notes blog | Subscribe to blog (email) | Subscribe to blog (RSS) | Follow Kinoma for news/content alerts | Follow KinomaTips for tips/tricks
  2. #182  
    Let me start by saying that this is by far the best media player I have ever seen for WM devices, and a huge part of that is the activity of Charles on these forums. THANK YOU. Your posts are truly what prompted me to plop down my cash, and this is the only media player purchase I have ever been willing to make.

    You can do that right now. When you're at Kinoma Play's Main screen, show the menu pod then select Player > Open URL. If you have a URL in the clipboard, it'll be auto-pasted. You can save it as a Favorite at the same time.
    My bad, I found this option shortly after I posted and the auto paste thing is pretty sweet.

    Now time for a feature request. Any way to allow the program to read an html directory listing?(Assuming said directory allows it) Example: I put a bunch of audio files on my server in http://www.example.com/music/ and I browse to this directory in Kinoma. Presently it tells me "Error: Unsupported MIME" In TCPMP, it opens the directory list and I can select the file I want, similar to browsing the file structure of my storage card.

    "Response" is primarily a function of the screen. There are many touch technologies, but several don't respond as well to skin as they do to fingernails and styluses. I expect more adoption of iPhone-like capacitive technologies as time goes on, but in the meantime I find that it works better to use a fingernail on many WinMo phones.
    I completely understand what you're talking about. I guess I'm disappointed with the finger-friendliness of this app after having such good response from PocketCM appllications, google maps, and S2U products on the 700. If they can do it well on a plethora of different technologies, I guess I expected Kinoma to have the same quality level of programming since this app is so amazing.

    We're following Microsoft's guidelines/rules here. You can always exit with the Exit command, but there's absolutely no reason to (see below).
    You're not following Microsoft's guidelines/rules, you're following Microsoft's default behavior, there is a HUGE difference. The "X" should function as a minimize yes, but you do not have the standard "X", you have you're own custom minimize control that looks like an X. If you were using the same standard Microsoft "X" protocol, then it would be able to be intercepted/modified the same way that all other applications are. Modifying the function of the "X" is one of the first things the majority of users who install/buy third party software do, and some software we buy is actually intended specifically for this purpose, so I really do think that you should have stuck with the standard title bar X for maximum compatibility.

    Bzzzzt! It's not, and this is trivial to verify. Just launch Task Manager and you'll see that Kinoma Play uses 0% of your CPU (and 0% of your battery) when it's not doing anything.

    You don't need to worry about memory, either. Windows Mobile will tell Kinoma Play to quietly exit if it needs the memory.
    I'll go ahead and have wizbar hide the icon in my taskbar and see if I notice any operating/battery life changes with Kinoma running, thanks for the heads up.
  3. #183  
    Ugh, I really do like Kinoma player but this guy....
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    I'm sorry too, and I hope you'll change your mind. Happily, most customers understand that we're trying to make the Windows Mobile media experience suck less for the people that need it most, and are happy to help us make automatic content discovery "just work".

    We accounted for all reported exceptions in our first two updates. We've had a few more reports since then, and our next update will address those.
    I understand you're trying to make it suck less but you don't do that through exclusion lists that cannot be modified. Seriously, it's like you don't want your users playing all of their media. Not everyone has the same folder structure and certainly not all applications work the same way.

    The way you're currently doing it, you'll never satisfy everyone because everyone is different. You'll end up excluding something someone wants or you won't include something someone wants. Either way, choice through preferences is insanely easy to program and offers choice for more experienced users.

    Thinking the current way you're doing it is the best way for a great user experience is egotistical. You're ignoring feedback (multiple people suggested this change, not just myself) and utilizing bad practices (exclusion lists are bad; use white lists and general purpose algorithms).
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    Neither of those products works like you think they work.
    Thanks for telling me how I think. I had no idea before .
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    The Zune is closed media player. You can only put content on the Zune via a PC app (which updates the Zune's internal media directory), or through the Zune software itself (in which case it updates its own directory).
    What does the Zune software being closed have to do with anything? I don't remember seeing the source for Kinoma anywhere... seems more like a cheapshot to me.

    Anyway, we're talking about software (you don't make your own MP3 player so why you're discussing this like you are is a little... well I already got to this point earlier).

    You're missing my entire point anyway. The Zune software automatically monitors several folders but you have a choice to pick other folders to monitor. Any music files added or removed from the specific and/or default folders is automatically added or removed from the Zune software.

    Also, fyi, you can add songs to the Zune wirelessly from other PCs, Zunes or even wirelessly through their marketplace built right into the Zune. I would suggest checking your "facts" before spouting off half-truths. You don't need a PC or the Zune software to add music to the Zune. Hell, you can tag music from the built in radio and download it right then and there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    iTunes lets you choose a single "iTunes Music folder" path. However, it's brain-dead -- if you add, remove or change anything in that folder without using iTunes, iTunes won't see it. You can also manually add the contents of a folder, but it's also a dumb, one-time operation. And if you add a folder with files that are already in your music folder, iTunes will happily pollute your library with duplicates.
    Again, you miss the point. iTunes has a default folder path that you can use or you can specify one. Giving you choice.

    Also, you're going off again without checking your facts. Do me a favor, download iTunes and drag some music onto it. Then do it to the same music three more times. Guess what? They're not duplicated in your iTunes library. I did this by accident 2 times yesterday when I was trying to manage my iPod Touch and absolutely nothing was duplicated.

    Just to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ***, I took my entire music library that is already in iTunes (all 18GB of it) and re-added it. Guess what it did? It duplicated absolutely nothing.

    In your defense though, I believe iTunes used to duplicate the music... about 2-3 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    Kinoma Play's content auto-discovery is far more sophisticated than either.
    How so? Can you explain the algorithms it utilizes? From what you've shown in this thread so far, it's pretty dumb in that it just uses exclusion lists and iterates through the rest of the directs on the device / storage cards.
  4. #184  
    Geez folks...chill
  5. #185  
    Very well said Kasracer. They seem to want to blow off suggestions from users or potential users just because they think they're smarter than us.

    It's one thing to say "yes, we know this might not work for you but it's how we're going to continue to do it" but totally offensive to try and belittle someone asking for a change. If they are not going to change this method, I for one won't buy it. And I'm sure they're totally fine with that.

    I work for a software/data company and have 25,000+ customers for my particular product, and while we can't do everything everyone wants, we're not condescending to any customer.

    Maybe they have lots more feedback from their customers that they appreciate the way the product works.
    Bell Rotary --> Kyocera 6035 --> Kyocera 7135 --> Palm Treo 800w
  6. #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by NAOrion View Post
    Now time for a feature request. Any way to allow the program to read an html directory listing? (Assuming said directory allows it)
    What would you think about a PHP script that could scrape an HTML page for MP3 files and turn it into a playlist? This might even be possible with something like Yahoo! Pipes.

    Quote Originally Posted by NAOrion View Post
    I guess I'm disappointed with the finger-friendliness of this app after having such good response from PocketCM appllications, google maps, and S2U products on the 700.
    We use Kinoma Play on WinMo Palm devices all the time, so I'm a little confused. Can you go into more detail?

    Quote Originally Posted by NAOrion View Post
    The "X" should function as a minimize yes, but you do not have the standard "X", you have you're own custom minimize control that looks like an X.
    Ah, now I understand. Unfortunately, we can't use OS controls.

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Kinoma Notes blog | Subscribe to blog (email) | Subscribe to blog (RSS) | Follow Kinoma for news/content alerts | Follow KinomaTips for tips/tricks
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    We use Kinoma Play on WinMo Palm devices all the time, so I'm a little confused. Can you go into more detail?
    PocketCM is a great application that's very finger friendly and works on most Windows Mobile devices (maybe even all?). It's cool, check it out.
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by NicksGarage View Post
    They seem to want to blow off suggestions from users or potential users just because they think they're smarter than us.
    No, in fact everything in our first two updates either added compatibility with more phones or addressed customer feedback:

    http://blog.kinoma.com/2008/09/kinom...now-available/
    http://blog.kinoma.com/2008/09/new-k...now-available/

    Quote Originally Posted by NicksGarage View Post
    It's one thing to say "yes, we know this might not work for you but it's how we're going to continue to do it" but totally offensive to try and belittle someone asking for a change.
    Kasracer: If you feel belittled, I apologize. I consider everyone here a peer, but text-only mediums aren't always great at communicating intent.

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Kinoma Notes blog | Subscribe to blog (email) | Subscribe to blog (RSS) | Follow Kinoma for news/content alerts | Follow KinomaTips for tips/tricks
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    Kasracer: If you feel belittled, I apologize. I consider everyone here a peer, but text-only mediums aren't always great at communicating intent.
    I don't feel belittled but it does seem like you or maybe your company (I don't know if you entirely represent them or not) will accept user input only if it falls into what your ideal / current design is.

    I won't lie, I really like the Kinoma player but that is also why I suggested following the solutions others have already created to save you time from finding out much later in the game.

    Auto-searching for media is cool but it never satisfies all users which is why most simply add an option for power users or users who just need to specify some folders they want or their favorite application uses.

    Naturally this is your application and you don't have to use anyone's input if you don't want to. I wouldn't be bitter at all but that won't change the fact that I still think it's needed.
  10. ehehat's Avatar
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    #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    That's correct. As of today's release we've resolved most edge cases related to scanning as reported by customers. That's going to remain our priority.
    When i had asked earlier if we could assume that this functionality would not be considered, this was his answer. As madening as it may be; it looks like they are going to develop THEIR software the way THEY see fit, regardless of the opinions of SEVERAL end users. At this point there really isnt much more to say. KASRACER~ PocketCM huh? I'll have to check it out. thanks for the tip!
    Devices used: Palm VIIx - Tungsten T - Tungsten T3 - HP ipaq 4155 - Tungsten T5 - BB 7520 - Treo 650 - Treo 700wx - Treo 755p - Q9c - BB 8130 - Treo 800w - HTC Touch Pro - BB 8330 - BB 8520 - HTC HD2 - Palm Pre
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    PocketCM is a great application that's very finger friendly and works on most Windows Mobile devices (maybe even all?). It's cool, check it out.
    Thanks! I don't have a touch-screen phone (I volunteed to be on Windows Mobile Smartphone day-to-day) but I'll recommend it to engineering. If it's quantifiable, any tips on the "feel" difference would be helpful.

    I stand by what I said in my post about Zune and iTunes, but I obviously didn't make my points as clearly as I wanted to. If you'd send your contact info to me at charles@ our domain, it'd be great to talk with you about it via phone to figure out where I went wrong.

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Last edited by Charles@Kinoma; 09/18/2008 at 10:30 PM.
    Kinoma Notes blog | Subscribe to blog (email) | Subscribe to blog (RSS) | Follow Kinoma for news/content alerts | Follow KinomaTips for tips/tricks
  12. #192  
    I really like my Kinoma Play but I find I have to shut it down using Task Manager when I am done using it. If I dont, I get weird screen wakeups about every minute. It will run down the battery in no time.
    Pilot 1000 -> Pilot 5000 ->Palm Pilot Professional -> HP 620LX -> TRG Pro -> Palm V -> Palm Vx -> Palm M505 -> Palm i705 -> Palm Tungsten|T -> Samsung i500 -> Treo 600->Treo 650 -> Treo 600-> Treo 700p ->Centro ->Treo 800w + Redfly C8n -> Palm Pre -> HP Touchpad
    R.I.P Palm 1996-2011
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    I really like my Kinoma Play but I find I have to shut it down using Task Manager when I am done using it. If I dont, I get weird screen wakeups about every minute. It will run down the battery in no time.
    Kinoma Play uses effectively no CPU time (and so no battery life) when it's not actively playing something, and never wakes up the screen that I know of.

    I recommend that you contact support. They're there to help.

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Kinoma Notes blog | Subscribe to blog (email) | Subscribe to blog (RSS) | Follow Kinoma for news/content alerts | Follow KinomaTips for tips/tricks
  14. #194  
    I went ahead and moved from the free play to paid release. Great application.
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    One of our updates addressed a similar problem found by two other customers, so I first recommend doing a Check for Updates to make sure you're using the latest.

    Otherwise, our support team is standing by and ready to help.

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Well first...how can I check for an update if it won't let me past registration....and two.....I had the lastest before thr register screen came back....at this point I can do anything with it.....and I paid for it already...frustrating!!!!!
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    What would you think about a PHP script that could scrape an HTML page for MP3 files and turn it into a playlist? This might even be possible with something like Yahoo! Pipes.
    Are you suggesting that I do something else on my end rather than have the player be able to read the directory list? I'm not really sure I understand your suggestion, all I know is that in other media players I can navigate to a directory on the web and it will give me a list of available files to play. TCPMP does it really well and it's a free app from ages ago. If you're player is the "all inclusive" player (which for the most part it is) I would think you would want it to do EVERYTHING that other players do, and this seems like a big one to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    We use Kinoma Play on WinMo Palm devices all the time, so I'm a little confused. Can you go into more detail?
    It's really next to impossible to scroll up and down through lists with the touch screen. PocketCM allows me to thumb scroll through my contacts page by page quite easily and reacts very well. PocketCM Image viewer gives the same "gesture" control to flipping through images, zooming in, and panning around with excellent touchscreen response. This really seems like poor touch screen input capture on Kinoma's end more than anything. Minor annoyance for me since I can use my 5 way, but some touch screen WinMo's don't have 5 ways.


    In other news, I thought of two other features that would be useful.

    1. "Home" we need a button to go straight back to the main menu in one or maybe 2 clicks. Right now if I'm listening to a shoutcast, I have to hit back like 6 times to switch to listening to an mp3 and vice versa. Get's annoying when you're trying to show someone all the cool things the app does.

    2. Search filters. The search works VERY well, however I will never be listening to an 8kbps mp3 music stream via shoutcast, so I would like to be able to set my search options to a minimum stream quality. EX only show results 128kbps and higher.
  17. #197  
    First off, big fan of this app. It's got a way to go before it's perfect (I'd love to see auto podcast queueing a la BeyondPod) but it's very good.

    I think it's worth pointing out that I understand what Charles is saying about trying to make the app "just work". They're trying to avoid necessary manual configuration, to make the app usable by people who don't like tweaking this stuff, people who have never even HEARD of WMExperts.

    And that's kind of the point. The angry demands in this forum are not, by definition, from Kinoma's target audience. So no matter how strongly you demand it, they're not going to divert from their plan.

    Imagine you had several very passionate, very dedicated people demanding Ford start providing towing capability and trailer hitches on Mustangs. Might come in handy for a small minority, but Ford wouldn't be providing poor customer service to ignore these demands.
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    I stand by what I said in my post about Zune and iTunes, but I obviously didn't make my points as clearly as I wanted to. If you'd send your contact info to me at charles@ our domain, it'd be great to talk with you about it via phone to figure out where I went wrong.
    No thanks though I don't entirely understand why you stand behind what you said regarding Zune and iTunes when they were factually incorrect... I can understand standing behind your point but standing behind the other stuff doesn't make sense to me.

    I have a feeling this functionality will never change. Oh well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    Kinoma Play uses effectively no CPU time (and so no battery life) when it's not actively playing something, and never wakes up the screen that I know of.
    If I don't end the Kinoma process then it will randomly wake up my 800w as well.

    Also, since the application is still in memory it still uses up ram which may or may not have an affect on battery life (I don't know how well WM devices manage memory and power together).

    Quote Originally Posted by IGoDwnTwn34 View Post
    Well first...how can I check for an update if it won't let me past registration....and two.....I had the latest before thr register screen came back....at this point I can do anything with it.....and I paid for it already...frustrating!!!!!
    There isn't a way to say "Hey, I want to use the free version instead", do the update then register? That or download the update from their website?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin View Post
    I think it's worth pointing out that I understand what Charles is saying about trying to make the app "just work". They're trying to avoid necessary manual configuration, to make the app usable by people who don't like tweaking this stuff, people who have never even HEARD of WMExperts.
    But the feature we requested is part of every media manager out there today and users wouldn't even need to do any manual tweaking. It's basically exactly the same as today's Kinoma but giving an option for users who may have issues getting their media either in the player or keeping the junk out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin View Post
    And that's kind of the point. The angry demands in this forum are not, by definition, from Kinoma's target audience. So no matter how strongly you demand it, they're not going to divert from their plan.

    Imagine you had several very passionate, very dedicated people demanding Ford start providing towing capability and trailer hitches on Mustangs. Might come in handy for a small minority, but Ford wouldn't be providing poor customer service to ignore these demands.
    As far as I've seen, there have been no angry demands but I think you have missed the point entirely.

    For example, take the users of iTunes. Do you think the majority of them manually manage their folders and place them into other places? No. For the majority of iTunes users it just works. For the users with special needs, however; iTunes allows them to specify the directory. The Zune software works similar but allows multiple directories to watch.

    My suggestion was to leave Kinoma's automatic search in place but add additional settings to allow users to specify directories. This makes no difference in Kinoma's key demographic but also attracts more power users and users who have experienced a problem before. It's very easy to add programming wise too; it just doesn't make sense to me to ignore the lessons learned on the Desktop front and not add it.

    But, as I mentioned before, we are a minority that requested this and I do not expect nor demand my suggestions be added. The main thing I was arguing was the reasoning for not adding the feature.

    Besides, havn't you seen this before:
  19. ehehat's Avatar
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    #199  
    Agreed. It also boggles the mind a little that (as stated in an earlier post) the Palm OS version of this software started out the same way but then added this functionality out of recognized necessity. If they saw the value of adding this before, why wouldn’t it be included from the start now? Since it wasn’t(and again, they saw before that it was important enough to add), why wouldn’t they consider adding it?

    I'm no programmer but reading several posts from people that claim to be this should not be a difficult addition, nor would it have to take away from the core-functionality of the program. Seems silly to me not to do it, if for no other reason than just to make it at least as good (read: "configurable") as its Palm OS counterpart.
    Devices used: Palm VIIx - Tungsten T - Tungsten T3 - HP ipaq 4155 - Tungsten T5 - BB 7520 - Treo 650 - Treo 700wx - Treo 755p - Q9c - BB 8130 - Treo 800w - HTC Touch Pro - BB 8330 - BB 8520 - HTC HD2 - Palm Pre
  20. #200  
    Charles, if your developers just want to make it "work" for now, how about another team/person work on a scanning module, which allows parameters. Then when the module is finished, modify Kinoma to execute the module?

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