Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 42
  1. efudd's Avatar
    Posts
    697 Posts
    Global Posts
    728 Global Posts
    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by crazie.eddie View Post
    20 minutes. That's a real long time. Even using my BT GPS receiver, I can pick up satellites in my room, within about a minute. I don't know if I can wait 20 minutes for the 800 to do so. I guess if I was lost in the deep Amazon jungle, I could wait 20 minutes, but not out here in the suburbs. I could try it, but it would be a waste.

    agree it's like FOREVER- but that IS the experience with the early HACKED moguls.

    not exactly sure why.
  2. efudd's Avatar
    Posts
    697 Posts
    Global Posts
    728 Global Posts
    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    ...
    Basically the way I understand gps is for the initial lock the device needs to have a clear view of the sky to get all the data from 4+ sats. If the process gets inturupted then it starts over. In a perfect world starting from zero it can take several minutes. ...

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    No. having used a lot of gps units, it isn't: "In a perfect world starting from zero it can take several minutes." It is: it takes several minutes maximum from a cold start.
    excuse me English professor but exactly how is your quote ANY different from what I said?

    perhaps you like your wording better but there was no reason to say no as if Im incorrect.

    from zero (eg a cold start) it CAN take SEVERAL minutes. Yes that would be the maximum but it CAN take that long.

    over the years they have gotten much faster (I believe the newer devices are more fault tolerant if they miss a single birds signal?).

    see this site for a table of real world fix times:
    http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/ttffcomparisons.php

    while 30-90 seconds is typical- 2, 5, or even EIGHT minutes is possible.


    When the satellites try to acquire a lock they need to rely on both Almanac and Ephemeris data. Almanac data is course orbital parameters for all satellites in the GPS constellation which isn't very accurate information but is usually current for up to several months. Then there's Ephemeris data which is very precise orbital and clock correction for each satellite and is required for precise positioning, eg 3D fix. Each satellite broadcasts only it's Ephemeris data which has a life span of approx 5 hours per satellite. Each satellite will broadcast the Ephemeris data for a 30 second period, and then re-transmit, so if the GPS receiver loses track of the data part way through the 30 second cycle, you will have to start again at the next 30 second cycle.



    There are 4 TTFF start types depending on the amount of Almanac and Ephemeris data that is present in the GPS Receiver and where it thinks it is and the satellites are which can help aid the GPS acquire a lock quicker. These are designated as Factory, Cold, Warm and Hot.


    Factory is where the receiver has no knowledge whatsoever of Almanac data in turn to locate the satellites and retrieve Ephemeris data, and for a full Almanac to be downloaded can take approx 12.5 mins, hence most companies suggest a factory start of 15 minutes.
    From that explanation- I am GUESSING that the sprint location servers provide BOTH the ephemeris and almanac data and the phone is not saving either locally. and so 12.5 to 15 minutes would not seem out of the question at all...

    From the same link above:
    If you have a slow TTFF, then you could be waiting anything from 5 minutes+. If you commence driving before receiving all the Almanac and Ephemeris data then you will severely increase your problems in acquiring fixes. You can then sometimes find this increasing your TTFF time to anything up to 50 minutes due to the movement of the GPS receiver and being blocked or having signals reflected.



    The Pocket GPS team have received well over 50 TTFF's at around 15-20 minute mark in the last 3 months, and over a dozen at around 30-50 minutes both using the Navman sleeve.
    so maybe even FIFTY minutes is possible when not connected to the sprint network....
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    excuse me English professor but exactly how is your quote ANY different from what I said? .
    well because your implication is that under perfect conditions it is several minutes. I would say warm start 15 to 45 seconds for GPS units I have had is what you get under perfect conditions. Several minutes would not be under perfect conditions but under very bad conditions (pretty much the maximum time).

    I don't see the point of posting the five your old data you posted. My gamin will fix in 15 to 20 seconds from a warm start and about 45 to 90 seconds from a cold start. Never longer.

    You then go into a long cut and paste of data from over five year old tests on equipment that is six years old -- when quality gps receivers for integration into devices like the 800w n the $20 wholesale range -- are many times faster than six years ago!
  4. efudd's Avatar
    Posts
    697 Posts
    Global Posts
    728 Global Posts
    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    well because your implication is that under perfect conditions it is several minutes. I would say warm start 15 to 45 seconds for GPS units I have had is what you get under perfect conditions. Several minutes would not be under perfect conditions but under very bad conditions (pretty much the maximum time).

    I don't see the point of posting the five your old data you posted. My gamin will fix in 15 to 20 seconds from a warm start and about 45 to 90 seconds from a cold start. Never longer.

    You then go into a long cut and paste of data from over five year old tests on equipment that is six years old -- when quality gps receivers for integration into devices like the 800w n the $20 wholesale range -- are many times faster than six years ago!

    you might have inferred that i meant under perfect conditions- but i said nothing of the sort.

    i also described a COLD start so not sure why you are cluttering up talking about warm starts.

    Sirf, who I believe is a dominant force in gps stand alone chips, themselves says
    In real-world conditions, where the GPS
    receiver is usually moving, it can take up to several minutes to obtain all
    the data the receiver needs to perform its calculations and obtain a fix,
    resulting in a long period with a great deal of location uncertainty before
    navigation can begin.
    Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:00am EST (recent enough for you) http://www.reuters.com/article/press...08+PRN20080102

    Sorry I was at work and didn't have time to check for a newer table- feel free to provide one. Might not have been worth much- I was in a rush and quickly tried to get some data. I cant see a current one anywhere with quick search.

    the bottom line IS that based on user reports the gps chips in phones (the 800w and mogul) apparently do not perform as well as current generation stand alone chips without access to the carriers gps assistance servers. If I understand they are not stand alone gps chips in the phone anyway but rather a feature crammed into the main quallcom chip so expecting sirf’s standalone performance might not be realistic..

    I don't have an 800w- so I can't speak personally but that's what others have posted.

    I attempted to provide some helpful information for those trying to figure out why. Sorry if you didn't like my wording and think it was precise enough.

    if you bothered to read the long cut and paste without obsessing over numbers and the definainton of 'several' it explained what MIGHT be the cause (lack of almanac data locally stored on the device).

    if you have other theories so that people can try to work towards a solution please provide them.
    Last edited by efudd; 07/29/2008 at 03:58 PM.
  5. #25  
    Trust me, the Mogul performs great in standalone GPS mode. Try it on a flight sometime.
  6. efudd's Avatar
    Posts
    697 Posts
    Global Posts
    728 Global Posts
    #26  
    mogul with official firmware right? On Sprint?

    Or have they figured out how to hack it on to verizon phones too? last I checked (months ago)- the verizon hacks where still slow as a dog.

    Interestingly- is that last link from the press release from sirf- they have some windows mobile DLL that calculates the data and can give a cold start in a matter of seconds. I wonder if there is something like that needed to make the 800w work well when not in sprint areas. Maybe there's a dll from the sprint mogul that could get copied to the 800w and it would help (assuming they use the same processor with gps?)
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    mogul with official firmware right? On Sprint?

    Or have they figured out how to hack it on to verizon phones too? last I checked (months ago)- the verizon hacks where still slow as a dog.

    Interestingly- is that last link from the press release from sirf- they have some windows mobile DLL that calculates the data and can give a cold start in a matter of seconds. I wonder if there is something like that needed to make the 800w work well when not in sprint areas. Maybe there's a dll from the sprint mogul that could get copied to the 800w and it would help (assuming they use the same processor with gps?)
    Mogul with any firmware that is post-GPS introduction. Don't know about Verizon since I have Sprint. I was under the impression that Sprint was the only carrier using aGPS so if GPS works on Verizon, it must be true standalone.
  8. xdalaw's Avatar
    Posts
    583 Posts
    Global Posts
    680 Global Posts
    #28  
    Mogul on new stock firmware, after a couple minor registry changes, worked fine with my TomTom 6 software earlier today. I haven't activated this phone since my last ESN swap to my 800w, so no "a" needed. (I have used my wifi, but not the phone since last hard reset and reinstallation of GPS software.)
    Palm III -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Dell Axim X5 Advanced -> Dell Axim X3i -> Dell Axim X50v -> Cingular 8125 -> Sprint Palm Treo 700Wx -> ->Palm Treo 700P (my wife's but I played with it ) -> Sprint Mogul -> Treo 800w -> Touch Pro & Treo Pro.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    ....the bottom line IS that based on user reports the gps chips in phones (the 800w and mogul) apparently do not perform as well as current generation stand alone chips without access to the carriers gps assistance servers. If I understand they are not stand alone gps chips in the phone anyway but rather a feature crammed into the main quallcom chip so expecting sirfs standalone performance might not be realistic..
    1)"Performs as well?" we are talking about whether it performs at all as "standalone", which is an advertised feature.

    2) You came into this thread without reading up on the posts as to whether this advertised feature was working. Please look at the thread title.

    3) who cares about the mogul? The mogol's officials spec sheet doesn't say "standalone" -- the 800W's does.


    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    if you have other theories so that people can try to work towards a solution please provide them.
    It isn't a matter of a theory. It is the same as the bluetooth voice command advertised and not enabled until people voiced enough concern -- it is palms responsibility to patch the problem caused by the forcing to aGPS only.

    The solution is to advocate to palm that they implement a feature they have advertised on all their own major descriptions of the product.
  10. #30  
    800w GPS does work without radio service if it's already been in that location with the everything on before.

    I was walking around with the radio off. Turned the GPS off, Google said it was initializing GPS, turned it on, Google found used it, found satellites and was tracking. Of course it couldn't update the maps.

    EDIT: Tried again. Couldn't it to "locate satellites" till I turned the radio on. Then I turned the radio off again (it was in roaming and not on Sprint's network). Walked around and it was tracking my movements. Went into the house and out the back for a bit. Came back to the front and it started tracking my movements after about 30 seconds. Radio off.
    Last edited by chrisngrod; 07/30/2008 at 08:30 PM.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisngrod View Post
    800w GPS does work without radio service if it's already been in that location with the everything on before.

    I was walking around with the radio off. Turned the GPS off, Google said it was initializing GPS, turned it on, Google found used it, found satellites and was tracking. Of course it couldn't update the maps.

    EDIT: Tried again. Couldn't it to "locate satellites" till I turned the radio on. Then I turned the radio off again (it was in roaming and not on Sprint's network). Walked around and it was tracking my movements. Went into the house and out the back for a bit. Came back to the front and it started tracking my movements after about 30 seconds. Radio off.
    Wait a little longer. Eventually, you will lose tracking with the radio off.
  12. #32  
    Ah well that sucks. I wonder if the Diamond or Touch Pro will be on par perfomance wise with the Iphone 3g. It does have a faster processor (mhz wise at least), but runs a different OS
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by xdalaw View Post
    Mogul on new stock firmware, after a couple minor registry changes, worked fine with my TomTom 6
    What are the registry tweaks? I can try on my 800 using tomtom 6 as well.

    Sidenote: I left my 800w on for 35 minutes today in plain sky view. google maps times out twice and tomtom with gpsgate didn't work either.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisngrod View Post
    EDIT: Tried again. Couldn't it to "locate satellites" till I turned the radio on. Then I turned the radio off again (it was in roaming and not on Sprint's network). Walked around and it was tracking my movements. Went into the house and out the back for a bit. Came back to the front and it started tracking my movements after about 30 seconds. Radio off.
    ie you are finding out it is not standalone
  15. xdalaw's Avatar
    Posts
    583 Posts
    Global Posts
    680 Global Posts
    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by opacityzero View Post
    What are the registry tweaks? I can try on my 800 using tomtom 6 as well.

    Sidenote: I left my 800w on for 35 minutes today in plain sky view. google maps times out twice and tomtom with gpsgate didn't work either.
    Here's the info regarding the registry keys for the MOGUL--not the Treo 800w. I think I found it on PPCGeeks, but can't recall who to credit:

    "to enable full standalone operation with no server assistance that will work in flight mode or no service flawlessly (with a lock just as quick as when in agps mode,YMMV) (technically this will work over seas also)

    go to HKLM > SOFTWARE > HTC > SUPL AGPS >

    change EnableAGPS to 0
    change EnableGPSSmartMode to 0
    change GPSMode to 1

    and soft reset, that will set the mogul to operate in full standalone mode only,

    if you want server assistance still you can try changing GPSMode to 2 (server assist) or 4 (server assist/hybrid) and that should leave the server assistance enabled BUT let it still operate in flight mode or standalone /w no service (i have not tested that)

    i posted this same information over at sprintusers also."
    Palm III -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Dell Axim X5 Advanced -> Dell Axim X3i -> Dell Axim X50v -> Cingular 8125 -> Sprint Palm Treo 700Wx -> ->Palm Treo 700P (my wife's but I played with it ) -> Sprint Mogul -> Treo 800w -> Touch Pro & Treo Pro.
  16. efudd's Avatar
    Posts
    697 Posts
    Global Posts
    728 Global Posts
    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by xdalaw View Post
    Here's the info regarding the registry keys for the MOGUL--not the Treo 800w. I think I found it on PPCGeeks, but can't recall who to credit:

    "to enable full standalone operation with no server assistance that will work in flight mode or no service flawlessly (with a lock just as quick as when in agps mode,YMMV) (technically this will work over seas also)

    go to HKLM > SOFTWARE > HTC > SUPL AGPS >

    change EnableAGPS to 0
    change EnableGPSSmartMode to 0
    change GPSMode to 1

    and soft reset, that will set the mogul to operate in full standalone mode only,

    if you want server assistance still you can try changing GPSMode to 2 (server assist) or 4 (server assist/hybrid) and that should leave the server assistance enabled BUT let it still operate in flight mode or standalone /w no service (i have not tested that)

    i posted this same information over at sprintusers also."

    so that wont work on the 800w then?
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    so that wont work on the 800w then?
    No. You didn't notice the "HTC"?
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by ywenz View Post
    I've got the same issue.. GPS used to work fine with Google Map. Now it just sits there saying "Seeking GPS satellites (0)"
    had the same problem. found out that it doesn't have anything to do with the RevA being on or off. you have to make sure that the phone location is turned on rather than the 911 only. not sure why that is linked.
  19. #39  
    I am typically a lurker on here, but I contacted eCare about this issue (and another issue). Here is what I wrote and then eCare's response:

    My message:

    In addition, I have noted that the 800w boasts autonomous GPS, but when I lose radio signal or disable radio signal I am not able to use the GPS. Is this a flaw in the hardware or software? Is there a patch or fix coming out soon to resolve this issue?

    eCare Response:

    Thank you for contacting Sprint. I will be happy to assist you with your GPS concerns on the 800w.

    We are aware that the GPS is not functioning as advertised at this time and is requiring Sprint signal for the GPS to work. There will be a software update for this in the future which is currently being worked on but we do not yet have an estimate on when that update will be released. Please let us know if we can do anything else for you at this time.


    It seems as if Sprint is aware of the issue and working to resolve it. Just thought I would pass that along. Back to lurking.
  20. xdalaw's Avatar
    Posts
    583 Posts
    Global Posts
    680 Global Posts
    #40  
    Thanks for the post Marrow. If true, and if that fix comes soon, this will be really good news for us!
    Palm III -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Dell Axim X5 Advanced -> Dell Axim X3i -> Dell Axim X50v -> Cingular 8125 -> Sprint Palm Treo 700Wx -> ->Palm Treo 700P (my wife's but I played with it ) -> Sprint Mogul -> Treo 800w -> Touch Pro & Treo Pro.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions