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  1. #301  
    All the footnotes are the same still. Keep in mind, the Treo Pro has a truly stand alone and assisted GPS which functions as such according to Treo Pro reviews. And the Treo Pro has the same disclaimer footnote. It's not about needing a phone carrier data signal, but just as The Lepricon mentioned, there are some parts of the earth where you can't get any GPS service, like underground. The Treo 800w's advertising specs are explicit about "stand alone and assisted" GPS.

    It was Ebag333 (I think I got the account ID correct) who presented the issue to Palm and a link is somewhere in here.

    Palm/Sprint should have simply said "assisted GPS" and I would be on the opposite side of this discussion.
  2. #302  
    aixguru - You are pulling the disclaimer from the GPS WiFi advertising, but the device specs page has no such disclaimers and mentions "Built-in GPS (standalone and assisted)". To fulfill the claims of a stand alone GPS, the device has to work as such. If the statements are ambiguous, that does NOT work in Palm/Sprint's favor.
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    #303  
    agreed, and even if they put "assisted gps" on 1,000 weblinks of specs and a mere 1 said standalone, then youve met the element of false advertising because a manufacturer cannot plea/say it was a mistake according to the definition itself. Nor does it matter what their intention was: mistake, changed the disclaimer, etc.

    I guess the best way of saying it is: if even 20 buyers out of 5,000 saw standalone and bought it under fase pretenses, is it not ambiguous and deceptive advertising? Id sure say so.

    EDIT: ahh theres the link. its right there in clear letters "standalone". Boom, false advertising right by the definition of it- no doubts about it. Thats contradicting the disclaimer as well making it totally deceptive in nature.
  4. #304  
    Also, see pages 337-338 in the Treo 800w user guide. They detail how to setup an external GPS device to work with the Treo 800w GPS. No where in those instructions is it mentioned that a Sprint data connection is required.

    Even the manual gives instructions as a stand alone GPS.
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    #305  
    the specs alone are more than enough proof right there.

    the people who say they dont need it or care or got a bluetooth receiver, thats great. Some people care, but the majority of use want companies to act ethically and not deceive us time after time. We dont want to buy the next great device out and get hosed and lied to and create a chain of this behavior and sit on our hands. theres no reason that should be happening.

    now as i said as a law student i cant be involved in any legal matters directly (or contact them about legal issues) due to honor code stuff, and im very very busy, but i can try to point people towards relevant laws if anyone wants to draft an email or letter to Palm with the link to the specs vs. the disclaimer asking for the issue to be fixed because they are deceiving customers and in violation of commercial and advertising laws.
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    #306  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    aixguru - You are pulling the disclaimer from the GPS WiFi advertising
    You are incorrect........that last disclaimer is from a scanned copy of the Treo 800w Pocket Sales Guide posted by another forum member in early July. I searched for the link to the document but was unable to find it. Nevertheless, I stand by my opinion there is conflicting information regarding GPS functionality. Other words, it's clearly documented in the specs to include standalone, but it functions per the disclaimer. Not much more I can say on the topic. Let's hope a patch makes this whole thread moot very soon. Thanks all for the productive comments and feedback.
    Last edited by aixguru; 08/29/2008 at 11:06 PM.
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    #307  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Also, see pages 337-338 in the Treo 800w user guide. They detail how to setup an external GPS device to work with the Treo 800w GPS. No where in those instructions is it mentioned that a Sprint data connection is required.

    Even the manual gives instructions as a stand alone GPS.
    I'm not debating whether or not the 800w has a standalone GPS....it's clearly documented. I was simply saying in the beginning that demanding anything from Palm will prove difficult since there's conflicting information. That's it...nothing more nothing less.

    I agree the user manual makes no reference to the disclaimers, but you cannot simply ignore the fact they exist on the website and other documents.
  8. #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by klmsu19 View Post
    now as i said as a law student i cant be involved in any legal matters directly (or contact them about legal issues) due to honor code stuff, and im very very busy, but i can try to point people towards relevant laws if anyone wants to draft an email or letter to Palm with the link to the specs vs. the disclaimer asking for the issue to be fixed because they are deceiving customers and in violation of commercial and advertising laws.
    What "honor code stuff?"

    Since when is being a law student precluded someone from filing a legal case, sending letters or filling out paperwork? Several lawyers who did just that while in law school. Of course you can't practice law... but that is a different issue all together....

    Hmm... maybe that was the "good old days?"
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  9. #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by aixguru View Post
    I agree the user manual makes no reference to the disclaimers, but you cannot simply ignore the fact they exist on the website and other documents.
    People have argued just that to a couple of the members of this forum... time and time again they ignore the facts and push on with their complaining... lol
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  10. Cel
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    #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by klmsu19 View Post
    the specs alone are more than enough proof right there.

    the people who say they dont need it or care or got a bluetooth receiver, thats great. Some people care, but the majority of use want companies to act ethically and not deceive us time after time. We dont want to buy the next great device out and get hosed and lied to and create a chain of this behavior and sit on our hands. theres no reason that should be happening.

    now as i said as a law student i cant be involved in any legal matters directly (or contact them about legal issues) due to honor code stuff, and im very very busy, but i can try to point people towards relevant laws if anyone wants to draft an email or letter to Palm with the link to the specs vs. the disclaimer asking for the issue to be fixed because they are deceiving customers and in violation of commercial and advertising laws.
    lol, honor code stuff...
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    #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    What "honor code stuff?"

    Since when is being a law student precluded someone from filing a legal case, sending letters or filling out paperwork? Several lawyers who did just that while in law school. Of course you can't practice law... but that is a different issue all together....

    Hmm... maybe that was the "good old days?"
    You're correct, I can file on my own behalf which would grant me monetary damages in small claims court- thats about as far as I could get without proper representation against a multi-billion dollar corporation. I don't want money or to go to court for $600, as this isn't about money. That would leave no remedy for the other users which is what this is about- a community effort to induce a change.

    Sending Palm any type of legal references looks bad on my behalf as a law student. It would in fact appear as i was attempting to practice law, and there are clauses in our honor code dealing with ethics which I will not violate and jeopardize my future career over gps on my cell phone. As i said I'll be glad to furnish some legal underpinnings, but not be directly involved. Think about it this way, if a med student said take this medicine (using their knowledge from studies) to cure x or y and you get worse and its headline/public knowledge, how would that reflect on the rest of their career? Do you think the public or other professionals in the field would respect you or refer clients to you after appearing incompetent? Its a "too big for your britches" situation where if you lose out you get a bad reputation and persona as a know-it-all.

    And Cel, you wouldn't understand what it is unless you were in the field so I don't see what's so funny nor what you are offering to the pot here. I have no obligation to disclose what i can or cannot do (or willing to do), nor will I risk my expensive education influencing the rest of my life on this. If you couldn't do any better for the cause, I wouldn't mock anyone else.

    And to your latter comment, do you not think any type of conflicting information constitutes deception? No one is denying there are two different things being portrayed to us. Refer to the legal definition of deception: "the act of misleading another through intentionally false statements or fraudulent actions." Now, do you honestly think Palm, a company of thousands of employees, many officers, and many attorneys, are not aware the specs say standalone and offer a contradicting disclaimer? I say rationally the conflict in statements is misleading to a reasonable person, which is the legal rationale when there is a conflict in statements as we see here. A statement does not have to be false to be misleading- contradicting statements can be equally misleading. Just food for thought.
    Last edited by klmsu19; 08/30/2008 at 01:04 AM.
  12. #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by klmsu19 View Post
    You're correct, I can file on my own behalf which would grant me monetary damages in small claims court- thats about as far as I could get without proper representation against a multi-billion dollar corporation. I don't want money or to go to court for $600, as this isn't about money. That would leave no remedy for the other users which is what this is about- a community effort to induce a change.

    Sending Palm any type of legal references looks bad on my behalf as a law student. It would in fact appear as i was attempting to practice law, and there are clauses in our honor code dealing with ethics which I will not violate and jeopardize my future career over gps on my cell phone. As i said I'll be glad to furnish some legal underpinnings, but not be directly involved. Think about it this way, if a med student said take this medicine (using their knowledge from studies) to cure x or y and you get worse and its headline/public knowledge, how would that reflect on the rest of their career? Its a "too big for your britches" situation where if you lose out you get a bad reputation and persona as a know-it-all.

    And Cel, you wouldn't understand what it is unless you were in the field so I don't see what's so funny nor what you are offering to the pot here. I have no obligation to disclose what i can or cannot do (or willing to do), nor will I risk my expensive education influencing the rest of my life on this. If you couldn't do any better for the cause, I wouldn't mock anyone else.

    And to your latter comment, do you not think any type of conflicting information constitutes deception? No one is denying there are two different things being portrayed to us. Refer to the legal definition of deception: "the act of misleading another through intentionally false statements or fraudulent actions." Now, do you honestly think Palm, a company of thousands of employees, many officers, and many attorneys, are not aware the specs say standalone and offer a contradicting disclaimer? I say rationally the conflict in statements is misleading to a reasonable person, which is the legal rationale when there is a conflict in statements as we see here. A statement does not have to be false to be misleading- contradicting statements can be equally misleading. Just food for thought.
    What a load of crap.

    I'm definitely done with this thread...
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    #313  
    "Load of crap?" I'd 99.99999% bet you have absolutely NO clue what's entailed in a law school honor code. So how exactly do you know it's a load of crap exactly? I don't claim to know, or try to tell you, what the rules governing your profession/professional ethics are, so don't assume you know whats crap or not about my area.

    That's just a typical evasive answer around here that when you hear something you don't like/agree with, and have no justifiable response- the poster resorts to immature antics. Seems a logically thought out argument is not good enough for some either- so what exactly is?
    Last edited by klmsu19; 08/30/2008 at 01:24 AM.
  14. #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by klmsu19 View Post
    "Load of crap?" I'd 99.99999% bet you have absolutely NO clue what's entailed in a law school honor code.
    Actually, I do... but that is about as far as I go into my personal life on any forum... Although, without knowing what school you attend or without reading your honor code, I don't know for sure.

    But the jest of your posts are a load of crap anyway, so there you go.

    Bragging about being a law student (or lawyer) is about worthless... unless you are willing to take action. Then again, stating you are a lawyer (or law student) and then giving advice over the net is risky anyway... but, as you say, what the hell do I know.

    I'm really done... sorry for coming back.... take care and good luck in school.
    Last edited by theog; 08/30/2008 at 01:53 AM.
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  15. Cel
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    #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by klmsu19 View Post
    And Cel, you wouldn't understand what it is unless you were in the field so I don't see what's so funny nor what you are offering to the pot here. I have no obligation to disclose what i can or cannot do (or willing to do), nor will I risk my expensive education influencing the rest of my life on this. If you couldn't do any better for the cause, I wouldn't mock anyone else.
    I'm a lawyer you pompous ***, pass the bar, practice for 10 years, then come talk smack to me.

    You can't practice law without a license. That's not an "honor code", that's what we call the law.

    Practice Tip: If you want to sound lawyerly, try not to say "honor code stuff" and say "Rules of Professional Responsibility". It makes you sound like a professional.
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    #316  
    LOL You guys are getting too serious here.

    To take the serious-ness away, check out my big whopper with two bunny ears on side of my head. Thats an optical illusion that you never seen before.

    OK, great posts here, but I wonder if any Palm or Sprint reps are reading it. We are talking among overself, but they are not reading it.
    Last edited by chong67; 08/30/2008 at 07:08 AM.
  17. klmsu19's Avatar
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    #317  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Actually, I do... but that is about as far as I go into my personal life on any forum... Although, without knowing what school you attend or without reading your honor code, I don't know for sure.

    But the jest of your posts are a load of crap anyway, so there you go.

    Bragging about being a law student (or lawyer) is about worthless... unless you are willing to take action. Then again, stating you are a lawyer (or law student) and then giving advice over the net is risky anyway... but, as you
    say, what the hell do I know.

    I'm really done... sorry for coming back.... take care and good luck in school.
    well i guess you misunderstood my intent then. There was no bragging, simply advice on what is "good" business practice and what is not. Mentioning law student was simply saying that I have some background in the legal issues people are trying to explore, and trying to point out where Palm committed a "wrong." And you're right I'm not willing to take action for a bunch of people who don't want to have an intelligent discussion on an issue when a decent argument is being made. Why would I, or any person, go to bat for anyone group of people who says I'm full of crap without even thinking about the argument being made? I've been very gracious in listening to other points of view and explaining my point of view with some legal terms thrown in, but negative responses about being full of crap without any thought put into the subject is helping no more than me not taking action. We'll leave it at that, i have nothing personally against you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cel View Post
    I'm a lawyer you pompous ***, pass the bar, practice for 10 years, then come talk smack to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cel View Post
    If you want to sound lawyerly,
    Funny you don't see the irony in your own statement and choice of poor "professional" language in relation to my weak word choice. Don't mock my honest slip in grammar if all you can do is spout of obscenities and sound even less lawyerly.
    Last edited by klmsu19; 08/30/2008 at 09:30 AM.
  18. #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by klmsu19 View Post
    well i guess you misunderstood my intent then. There was no bragging, simply advice on what is "good" business practice and what is not. Mentioning law student was simply saying that I have some background in the legal issues people are trying to explore, and trying to point out where Palm committed a "wrong." And you're right I'm not willing to take action for a bunch of people who don't want to have an intelligent discussion on an issue when a decent argument is being made. Why would I, or any person, go to bat for anyone group of people who says I'm full of crap without even thinking about the argument being made? I've been very gracious in listening to other points of view and explaining my point of view with some legal terms thrown in, but negative responses about being full of crap without any thought put into the subject is helping no more than me not taking action. We'll leave it at that, i have nothing personally against you.






    Funny you don't see the irony in your own statement and choice of poor "professional" language in relation to my weak word choice. Don't mock my honest slip in grammar if all you can do is spout of obscenities and sound even less lawyerly.
    OK guys... Whip em out and lets see!
  19. #319  
    <Closed>
    People, keep your sanity! No need to declare war on each other. Peace out.
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