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  1. doc31's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    How is that practically different from the red fly?

    Surur
    1. your smartphone is required.
    2. no additional storage
    3. the foleo as the potential for same app to operate different on each platform
    4. Foleo is also a stand alone device
    5. Full keyboard

    Redfly is ok but I would prefer the foleo. The idea of mobile based os on mobile devices (smartphone and laptop) is a winner to me.
    I don't care what you say SPRINT kicks
    Treo650/Treo700p/Treo700wx/Treo755/HTC Touch/ Treo Pro/ Touch Pro/ Touch Diamond / Palm Pre / HTC EVO Shift / Nexus S 4G
    My Themes - Prethemer
  2. #82  
    I don't understand all this talk about "innovation." I'll take a functional, easy to use, well thought out device over "innovation" anyday. Slider devices, touchscreen only phones (basically HTC's lineup) don't inspire me. In terms of productivity, efficiency, ease of use, etc., the Treo form factor is the best. I'm looking forward to this - my Treo 750 is still the most stable, quickest WM device I've owned, and I've owned most of what AT&T has had to offer.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    Guys,

    It is hard to define the innovation concept. I agree with Malatesta in the sense that everyone throws that into the mix but fail to grasp the basic concept. However, it is easier to describe it in this statement for this particular case

    Innovation: 850

    Clearly, putting the two devices together (800w vs 850v), anybody who is/isn't a Palm follower would very likely say that the 850 looks innovative, versus the 800w that looks just rather functional. Both have the same general features (the keyboard and screen Malatesta was referring to).

    The innovative piece could be explained by the use of rounded shapes, flush screen, piano black finish. The devil is in the details. The looks call for a "function follows form" situation: if the device performs as good as it looks, then it is a desirable piece. The 800w lacks that awe inspiring external looks and many were only happy to claim that "well, at least is the first WiFi phone for Palm". It's like saying that the ugly lady in the room at least has a nice smile before her top-model sister makes an entry into the party.

    A techno parallel we can draw here perhaps is with the Mac Air and the Lenovo X300. Both are laptops, both have keyboards, a screen, CPU, SSD, etc, the technological innovation is marginal there... but who is innovative? We can claim both in a good day, but who got the perceived innovation lead? Which is the laptop getting the momentum in the media, and the attention of everyone? Mac Air is probably the winner here.

    In other note, it was just a few days ago when everyone was bracing for the 800w, doing mental excercises (brainwashing?) to convince themselves the 800w is a radical piece for Palm and that the looks were not as important. How many of those folks claim the same now that they have an 850, that matches vis-a-vis the 800w in specs? To them I say: people, it is OK to ask for quality in products, it is OK to ask for something to look both good and be functional at the same time. It can happen as Palm themselves have proven today.

    People here seem quick to discredit others who ask for innovation, claiming they dont understand what it means.

    Thats disingenious. I can assure you I know what innovation is. I guess the question to them here is, do you? The approval of palm`s pace of ingenuity here raises questions about such folks.

    If some think what palm is doing is innovation, then I`d feel very confident in saying THEY have no idea what innovation is, as tiny incremental changes apparently are enough to drop hundreds of dollars on and to pat palm on the back for excellent work. please.

    Im going to go ahead and simply categorize it as palm fanboy defensiveness, as there really is no good answer for a lack of progressive development within a productline.

    Like you, I believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask for higher quality, better products and more variety from a company whose central focus is the smartphone. One size does not fit all, and while one form factor may be successful, it does not follow that it is the ONLY form factor to bring success.


    Its narrow-minded thinking to believe in the single form factor only approach in my view, but such narrow-minded thinking seems to proliferate at palm, which fully explains palm`s narrow profit margins year after year while RIMM commands the top dog position. Id ask the folks at palm and those praising their strategy to remove the blinders please.
  4. #84  
    How come there is such a stark contrast between the 800 and the 850? Anyways, the 850 is absolutely beautiful. I will defiantly, be upgrading from my 750 when that becomes available.
    JasonRM79

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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    I don't understand all this talk about "innovation." I'll take a functional, easy to use, well thought out device over "innovation" anyday. Slider devices, touchscreen only phones (basically HTC's lineup) don't inspire me. In terms of productivity, efficiency, ease of use, etc., the Treo form factor is the best. I'm looking forward to this - my Treo 750 is still the most stable, quickest WM device I've owned, and I've owned most of what AT&T has had to offer.
    Your exactly right. I sold my 3.5G, GPS, WiFi, slide out landscape KB Kaiser on ebay so that I could upgrade to the perfect form factor of the treo 700wx.
  6. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    People here seem quick to discredit others who ask for innovation, claiming they dont understand what it means.

    Thats disingenious. I can assure you I know what innovation is. I guess the question to them here is, do you? The approval of palm`s pace of ingenuity here raises questions about such folks.

    If some think what palm is doing is innovation, then I`d feel very confident in saying THEY have no idea what innovation is, as tiny incremental changes apparently are enough to drop hundreds of dollars on and to pat palm on the back for excellent work. please.

    Im going to go ahead and simply categorize it as palm fanboy defensiveness, as there really is no good answer for a lack of progressive development within a productline.

    Like you, I believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask for higher quality, better products and more variety from a company whose central focus is the smartphone. One size does not fit all, and while one form factor may be successful, it does not follow that it is the ONLY form factor to bring success.


    Its narrow-minded thinking to believe in the single form factor only approach in my view, but such narrow-minded thinking seems to proliferate at palm, which fully explains palm`s narrow profit margins year after year while RIMM commands the top dog position. Id ask the folks at palm and those praising their strategy to remove the blinders please.
    I dont' consider incremental changes as innovation, but I wouldn't consider most of what everyone is talking about as innovation. Adding features that have existed on many other phones is not innovation. They might be good ideas, but they are not "innovative".

    I guess another part of the arguement is not only with different members having different definitions of "innovation", but different members having different definitions of "Treo". Many of the posts aren't saying "do not change the form factor of the Treo". They're just saying, "This form factor is what defines a Treo." If you change it into a clamshell design, that might be cool and more appealing to many people, but it should be branded under a different name. It's no longer a Treo. If it had a 320x480 screen with the hard buttons at bottom, and a slide out landscape keyboard, that's also cool, but is no longer a Treo, and should be called something else.

    Of course with this definition, the Centro should be labeled as a Treo (and the Treo 500 with no touchscreen, should probably be labeled something else.) So Palm isn't helping out here with what exactly defines a Treo. If all Treo means is that it's their high end phone, no matter how the treo looks and no matter what it can do, then I guess I'm on the wrong side of the arguement here.

    But still, too much of this thread isn't really about people disagreeing on the changes they might or might not want to see in upcoming Palm phones, but just about using the same words with different definitions in their minds.
    Vx --> M515 --> T|T3 --> T|T5
    --> Treo 650 --> Centro --> Dinc

    Smart Jones - a smartphone webcomic
  7. #87  
    I agree with the person who said that a 624mhz processor would be preferred. I'm not sure I'll be upgrading or not, I'm currently very happy with my q9c, but who knows. If the 850 was on Sprint, I'd consider it, though the 800 doesn't look nearly as ugly anymore as it used to.

    As for the comment that a 624mhz processor would kill battery life, why wouldn't it just be underclocked when not necessary, and then as CPU usage increases, then increase speed? That's what the q9c does so I assume WM Pro does the same thing.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    People here seem quick to discredit others who ask for innovation, claiming they dont understand what it means.

    Thats disingenious. I can assure you I know what innovation is. I guess the question to them here is, do you? The approval of palm`s pace of ingenuity here raises questions about such folks.

    If some think what palm is doing is innovation, then I`d feel very confident in saying THEY have no idea what innovation is, as tiny incremental changes apparently are enough to drop hundreds of dollars on and to pat palm on the back for excellent work. please.

    Im going to go ahead and simply categorize it as palm fanboy defensiveness, as there really is no good answer for a lack of progressive development within a productline.

    Like you, I believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask for higher quality, better products and more variety from a company whose central focus is the smartphone. One size does not fit all, and while one form factor may be successful, it does not follow that it is the ONLY form factor to bring success.


    Its narrow-minded thinking to believe in the single form factor only approach in my view, but such narrow-minded thinking seems to proliferate at palm, which fully explains palm`s narrow profit margins year after year while RIMM commands the top dog position. Id ask the folks at palm and those praising their strategy to remove the blinders please.
    Err...if any of that is directed towards myself, I never claimed that
    • what Palm does or is doing is "innovative"
    • justified Palm's "single device" approach (in fact I have said otherwise)

    My only issue is all things being equal with a Treo form factor, I'm not clear on what it is exactly people are expecting for a "break through" in design. Make it thinner? Make it wider? Add a button here, a scroll wheel there? Does that count? I would think not.

    You say you know what innovation is yet fail to elaborate.

    "Innovation" for myself means new form factors, putting a KB somewhere else, adding an accelerometer for screen changes, etc. But when it comes to a "Treo", the form factor is tried and tested: it just works. That's why the slight modifications to overall design.

    Heck, even RIM knows this. When the 9000 pics leaked there were plenty of "yawns" in the comment sections at BGR, Engadget, etc. as RIM is basically re-hashing the same design. They just upped the specs (and cost).

    Also, no one "approves" of Palm's pace on anything--I've had my 700wx since the day it came out and I'm, you know, sort of yearning for something new.

    So since you "bolded" my name in your post and I assume you are aiming the "fanboy" remarks indirectly at me, I would appreciate a response or clarification on what you mean.

    btw, Gerorne's post above is spot on.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  9. #89  
    You keep talking about my GPS button idea, but innovation is not just about new technology, but using that technology in new and useful ways.

    When I said add a button for GPS, I saif this button should be tied to a software backend, so hitting it should for example report back the GPS location to back-office, so managers know where their sales team are. That would be innovative, and the kind of thing I expect Apple will do with the GPS in iPhone 2.

    There is plenty of innovation that can take place which can increase the utility and desirability of a Treo without losing the iconic form factor.

    Maybe we can have a thread were people can list interesting ideas (as Palm cleary are devoid of them).

    Surur
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    I don't understand all this talk about "innovation." I'll take a functional, easy to use, well thought out device over "innovation" anyday. Slider devices, touchscreen only phones (basically HTC's lineup) don't inspire me. In terms of productivity, efficiency, ease of use, etc., the Treo form factor is the best. I'm looking forward to this - my Treo 750 is still the most stable, quickest WM device I've owned, and I've owned most of what AT&T has had to offer.
    I agree.

    I'd much rather have rock-solid stability and speed than all the bells and whistles. That's why I started with a handspring visor instead of windows-based device in the first place. sure, even then it didn't look quite as good, but it was <i>quick and stable</i>. Once the 600 form factor came about, things were just about perfect.

    My opinion on Palm only soured after owning a 700p for a while (which is still my phone), and <i>only</i> because it's so unstable. I was taking an important call yesterday on it, and the whole time I was waiting for it to crash or drop.

    now that being said, I just looked at the specs on the BB Bold, and see this as certainly being competitive.

    I think we (the 5%) are so nit-picky about this phone because we're fans, not just average users. We want to feel as if it's a no-brainer rather than subtleties that make the palm devices better. Given the brain-trust that palm has brought on board of late, hopefully by the time Nova rolls around, that'll be the case.

    Riz

    p.s. I'm actually okay with the 800w's looks fwiw. but as above, as long as it's not hot pink and covered with glitter; how it works is much more important to me.
  11. kbcherry's Avatar
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Err...if any of that is directed towards myself, I never claimed that
    • what Palm does or is doing is "innovative"
    • justified Palm's "single device" approach (in fact I have said otherwise)

    My only issue is all things being equal with a Treo form factor, I'm not clear on what it is exactly people are expecting for a "break through" in design. Make it thinner? Make it wider? Add a button here, a scroll wheel there? Does that count? I would think not.

    You say you know what innovation is yet fail to elaborate.

    "Innovation" for myself means new form factors, putting a KB somewhere else, adding an accelerometer for screen changes, etc. But when it comes to a "Treo", the form factor is tried and tested: it just works. That's why the slight modifications to overall design.

    Heck, even RIM knows this. When the 9000 pics leaked there were plenty of "yawns" in the comment sections at BGR, Engadget, etc. as RIM is basically re-hashing the same design. They just upped the specs (and cost).

    Also, no one "approves" of Palm's pace on anything--I've had my 700wx since the day it came out and I'm, you know, sort of yearning for something new.

    So since you "bolded" my name in your post and I assume you are aiming the "fanboy" remarks indirectly at me, I would appreciate a response or clarification on what you mean.

    btw, Gerorne's post above is spot on.
    I'm an admitted WM Treo Fanboy, so my opinion may not count, but I think Mal is spot on. And frankly, I'm sick and tired of the innovation discussion as well as the BGR and Engadget bashing of Treos. Those of us that like them like the form factor and even though many have tried nobody has been able to pull of the front facing keyboard on a pro device as well as Palm. They are slow to market, and don't always have the latest technical specs, but the phone plain works and their customizations are spot on. I guess if we are talking innovation why is it that everyone wants to load Palm's threaded messaging, even on 6.1 devices that come with it. They make good products.

    I had a Sprint 700wx, left to AT&T for 3G and bought a Tilt. 3 weeks later bought a 750. I swap between both, but only because of GPS. I know Palm could do better and I would see no harm in a larger screen similar to other slide out devices. But size isn't important to me at all and that may be why. But either way, if the GSM release looks like the 800 or the 850, I will be buying it. They both look fine to me.
  12. #92  
    I don't care if Palm is "innovative" or not; I just want them to catch-up. Give me a dang phone with WiFi!
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by URPREY View Post
    Here you go - 750 - 800 - 850:

    Credits to PalmInfocenter, Shadowmite, and BGR for the pictures. Not sure they're exactly to scale, but you get the idea

    I still pick the 680/750 look, 800 FUGLY and the keys and keyboards of the 850 looks like a kid's toy.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by PDAholic View Post
    I don't care if Palm is "innovative" or not; I just want them to catch-up. Give me a dang phone with WiFi!
    Agreed, Palm is falling too far behind w/ hardware ... even if next POS is good, need to have proper hardware or it's gonna be a "POS"
  15. #95  
    it seems 800 and 850 are wifi ready, isn't it?
    "If you bring forth what is within you, it will heal you. And if you do not bring forth what is within you, it will destroy you." (from the Gospel of St. Thomas)
  16. #96  
    design and looks is somewhat just a facial feature. what's important is the stability of the unit, less problems and good after sales service.
    "If you bring forth what is within you, it will heal you. And if you do not bring forth what is within you, it will destroy you." (from the Gospel of St. Thomas)
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You keep talking about my GPS button idea, but innovation is not just about new technology, but using that technology in new and useful ways.
    Actually I was talking about the Wifi button on the 800w, not your "GPS button idea"

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    When I said add a button for GPS, I saif this button should be tied to a software backend, so hitting it should for example report back the GPS location to back-office, so managers know where their sales team are. That would be innovative, and the kind of thing I expect Apple will do with the GPS in iPhone 2.
    Hardly a unique or innovative idea though as Sprint has had their "Precision Locator" service since 2005.

    Heck, Sprint's is even much better than yours as the user doesn't have to push "yet another button"--the managers can just pull up their info. Much easier.

    Perhaps Palm could do what you are saying, but it would require a significant back-end for software/server i.e. Palm would have to either create a web server solution to integrate, like Sprint (or something else).

    Sprint charges a $10 setup fee per phone and then a $20/month fee per phone for the service--so it's not cheap and I'm not sure they'd let Palm just give it away for free. For Palm to be a part of that Sprint system though, Sprint would have to allow them access to the programming and of course Palm would have to write software to integrate with Sprint's --no small task, I assume.

    Still, the idea is not bad it's just not that easy to implement, AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK ($remember$, $Sprint$ $doesn$'$t$ $even$ $think$ $we$ $need$ $MMS$ $on$ $WM$ $devices$, $so$ $we$ $don$'$t$ $have$ $it$).
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    There is plenty of innovation that can take place which can increase the utility and desirability of a Treo without losing the iconic form factor.

    Maybe we can have a thread were people can list interesting ideas (as Palm cleary are devoid of them).

    Surur
    Right, but at least my point is what constitutes "innovation" varies from person to person (you, for instance, generally think nothing in the iPhone is innovative, yet clearly a lot of people disagree).

    Furthermore, until we actually see how Palm's hardware works with WM6.1, we really can't say what they have and have not done to "...increase the utility and desirability of a Treo without losing the iconic form factor", can we?

    But heck, even I've thrown out numerous times how I would have liked a GSM sim and a light sensor for the screen (something that can be leveled against virtually all WM CDMA devices)--so I'm not shouting "status quo" for the Treo, just trying to define "innovation vs. refinement".

    For the Treo I argue for refinement; for other devices form-factors/devices, Palm needs innovation.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 05/22/2008 at 03:41 PM.

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  18. doc31's Avatar
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    #98  
    Hey Mel what are some of the little known tweaks (Special Sause) that Palm is putting into the 8xx series.
    I don't care what you say SPRINT kicks
    Treo650/Treo700p/Treo700wx/Treo755/HTC Touch/ Treo Pro/ Touch Pro/ Touch Diamond / Palm Pre / HTC EVO Shift / Nexus S 4G
    My Themes - Prethemer
  19. #99  
    The most obvious innovation from Palm is the Centro keyboard. For all the skepticism, it's remarkably effective. To me innovation is a feature like this, inconceivable and yet redefines a new threshold of what's possible.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Actually I was talking about the Wifi button on the 800w, not your "GPS button idea"


    Hardly a unique or innovative idea though as Sprint has had their "Precision Locator" service since 2005.

    Heck, Sprint's is even much better than yours as the user doesn't have to push "yet another button"--the managers can just pull up their info. Much easier.

    Perhaps Palm could do what you are saying, but it would require a significant back-end for software/server i.e. Palm would have to either create a web server solution to integrate, like Sprint (or something else).

    Sprint charges a $10 setup fee per phone and then a $20/month fee per phone for the service--so it's not cheap and I'm not sure they'd let Palm just give it away for free. For Palm to be a part of that Sprint system though, Sprint would have to allow them access to the programming and of course Palm would have to write software to integrate with Sprint's --no small task, I assume.

    Still, the idea is not bad it's just not that easy to implement, AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK ($remember$, $Sprint$ $doesn$'$t$ $even$ $think$ $we$ $need$ $MMS$ $on$ $WM$ $devices$, $so$ $we$ $don$'$t$ $have$ $it$).
    If Palm wants to be an enterprise provider they need to stop just selling hardware and do a bit more solution providing.

    Apple will do nifty things with the GPS in iPhone II, and everyone will say (including me) "anyone could have done that" because anyone could have done that. Most people are not very interested in the excuses why they did not however.

    Surur
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