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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    I think we just disagree. You don't always need a survey --sometimes you can go based on common sense or just by using it. I think it was an easy mistake for Palm to make --as I thought Wifi was importantly originally. But guess what, when I tried it on Sprint I realized it was really not useful given that if there was WiFI there pretty much was 3g there anyway. It's different on other networks that don't have 3g as ubiquitious. I also think your statement is wrong that you always need to survey users to find out what's right...I think they in practice some things become very obvious. Again, i thought it was going to be very important to me, i was very surprised to find out I was wrong....a survey isn't really needed --just common sense in some cases, especially this one. For people who stay within Sprint's footprint for 99% of their usage which really most of Sprint users--its not an issue.
    I do agree with you that in some cases, things are so obvious that no survey is needed. However, I don't think the question of whether wifi is useful or not in a phone is one of them. Just look at you and me. Two people who are familiar with smartphones and completely disagree on the usefulness of wifi in a smartphone so just how obvious can it be. Palm is seemingly putting a significant amount of resources into getting wifi onto the 800w and since we all know that their resources are limited, I highly doubt they would be doing that if they didn't have evidence that clearly said many (but not all) users want wifi on their phone. Sure, I'm willing to say that there are many smartphone users that don't care if wifi is there or not but common sense and the reasons I've stated above also tells me that there are many users who do want it. Why would carrier allow a feature like wifi on their phone, a feature that has the real potential to hurt their revenue, if it wasn't something that a good number of their users wanted?
    Last edited by Marty1781; 04/03/2008 at 01:17 PM.
    PDAPhoneHome Moderator
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Marty1781 View Post
    I have Sprint and I'll freely admit that I don't use wifi as much as I thought .
    Let me take you back to what you said a few posts ago. I agree with what you said here.
  3.    #23  
    I thought the Samsung is a WM device. If it isnt, no reason to even consider!
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Let me take you back to what you said a few posts ago. I agree with what you said here.
    Just because I don't use it that much doesn't mean it isn't an important feature. Usefulness does not equal or mean high frequency of use. I'll ask again: Why would carrier a allow a feature like wifi on their phone, a feature that has the real potential to hurt their revenue, if it wasn't something that a good number of their users wanted?
    PDAPhoneHome Moderator
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Marty1781 View Post
    Just because I don't use it that much doesn't mean it isn't an important feature. Usefulness does not equal or mean high frequency of use. I'll ask again: Why would carrier a allow a feature like wifi on their phone, a feature that has the real potential to hurt their revenue, if it wasn't something that a good number of their users wanted?
    You are wrong there. It doesn't hurt revenue at all. Sprint data is flate rate, not a per minute charge.
    Thats pretty much the point. On another carrier where you are capped on data it makes a whole lot of sense to get wifi. But its just not -as big of a deal- if you are on Sprint especially since 1xrtt is pretty much where their coverage is.

    Pretty much if you go back in your own posts about your own experiences you are making my point. And at best, if you did a survey for Sprint specifically (not other carriers) of those who had wifi phones, I'd say 10-20% at most would say its a must have feature. not nice to have, must have as everyone agrees its a nice feature to have. even though I leave it off for battery life on sprint you never know when I might need it (sprint gets blowed up by terrorists).

    Which is why they should have busted out the 800 last summer sans wifi and they would not be up a creek without any market share or mind share at this point. It was a big big marketing mistake to instead concentrate on rebuilding their wifi team and the foleo (cough)....and I think really hurt the company.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    You are wrong there. It doesn't hurt revenue at all. Sprint data is flate rate, not a per minute charge.
    Thats pretty much the point. On another carrier where you are capped on data it makes a whole lot of sense to get wifi. But its just not -as big of a deal- if you are on Sprint especially since 1xrtt is pretty much where their coverage is.
    Actually, you are the one that is wrong here. Its not a matter of per minute data charges that wifi would cut into (since Sprint data is flat rate as you point out) but rather a matter of whether a customer ends up paying the $15/month for data or not. As a moderator of PDAPhoneHome for several years now, I must have come across hundreds of posts from people who want to know if they are required to have data plans or not with their 6700/6800 because they would rather use free wifi than pay the extra monthly fee. No US carrier charges per minute data fees anymore yet it is well accepted that none of the carriers care for wifi on their phones. Why? Again, because it hurts their revenue because customers will be less willing to pay for a data plan if they know they have wifi as an option. So again, I'll ask you why would a carrier allow a revenue-unfriendly feature like wifi on a phone if it wasn't something a significant number of their customers wanted?

    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Pretty much if you go back in your own posts about your own experiences you are making my point. And at best, if you did a survey for Sprint specifically (not other carriers) of those who had wifi phones, I'd say 10-20% at most would say its a must have feature. not nice to have, must have as everyone agrees its a nice feature to have.
    The only thing I've said is that I don't use wifi as much as I thought I would. That doesn't mean that I don't value the feature or that it hasn't helped me out in situations before. Whether its turning my phone into a wireless router with WMWifiRouter, using wifi to browse the contents of my network, or helping me get online in a voice only service area, I've found wifi to be an extremely useful feature on the occassions that I do use it. While those situations don't happen on a frequent basis, they do occur consistently and that's why I and others know wifi to be a useful feature on smartphones. Again, usefulness does NOT equal frequency of use!

    You've really offered no support to your assertion that wifi is "pointless" for most Sprint users. In fact, the only thing you've put forward is your own personal experience, the idea that its "obvious", and now numbers that you've made up. Not very compelling.
    Last edited by Marty1781; 04/04/2008 at 11:17 AM.
    PDAPhoneHome Moderator
  7. #27  
    So you believe the vast majority of Sprint users --say 80% want to drop their 10-15 buck data plans (most of which are discounted by 33% to 100% anyway)...to try and catch their data needs at a local wifi from starbucks or pay 10 bucks a day to get it at the airport?

    Come on. I think it's fine to have a disagreement but that's probably not a reasonable one. Some people yea--the majority. Very unlikely to be true.

    I have not heard of any substantial # of people dropping off data plans...they either swtich carriers entirely or try and get some kind of retention discount to stay on which they usually get. My data plan is 5 bucks w/ retention.

    Again. It's a reasonableness test. Do the majority of users think about dropping data for wifi at their local library ..At best, I'd say 5% of Sprints user base would fall into that category which doesnt really make it germane to the issue since its so minor.

    I've also given you a guesstimate as to what I think are people who NEED to have Wifi vs just like it in case of a back up-- 20% MAx--and I'd bet the number is much smaller.

    As to your last question --why would carriers offer wifi phones if people don't want it. This gets to the heart of it.

    Like I mentioned before I got the mogul I thought wifi was a need to have..when I got it--I kept wifi off as I realized it was redundant--unless the Sprint Network was struck by terrorists its not a "need" to have. Sometimes customers want things, get them, and don't actually use them in marketing.

    Customrs are not always right in marketing.

    People wanted 3g in their first Iphone, but apple made a bet that if they gave it the battery life loss would be so large it would hurt the whole experience. If people had been asked what they preferred they would have asked for 3g and sacrificed an hour on the battery, but apple made a call that battery life was more important. It turned out to be the correct marketing trade off for the vast majority of users.

    Now. Do a few people with unusual geographies or travel patterns have a different view on use of WIFI. You bet. Is it the majority of Sprint users as you assert--probably not. Probably not even close to 20% who view it as a absolute must have.

    There is a big difference in marketing decision making between need to have and nice to have. I'd argue even in that minority that like and use wifi "occasionally" as you put it--its more of a nice to have. In fact you argue the same thing--you keep using words like "it's useful" and "note entirely useless". Not a show stopping need to have given the data plans provide that.

    That's the point you missed entirely--Palm made a big mistake holding up the Treo 800 on a nice to have feature for Sprint users. Yeah I get 100% what you keep saying over and over--you use it occasionally and its really cool some times and you've seen lots of posts on the boards you moderate that say the same thing.

    Words like "occasionally", and "useful" are not what do the trick here and why I keep saying you are proving my point.

    It's the first thing I learned in marketing in grad school--it makes a huge difference in how you value features and how they drive product development. And an example of a recent choice thathas pretty much killed Palm as a leading innovator.

    Lastly (sorry for the long post but you got me going now), I think the one think we can agree on it Palm has lost its was the last few years. I think people will be looking for reasons as to exactly what happened and why--I think this marketing choice is a pretty good example of one of them. A Treo 800 last summer sans wifi would have kept them in the game. Now its a march to a slow death.
  8. #28  
    Man I am following the VZW Touch forum on HoFo and between these two threads I must say I am f'ing sick of this stupid wifi argument. Can we just move on for the love of God!!
    OH-IO!!!
    Current Record: 1-2 in BCS Championships Current Rank: #5
    Next Game: 8/30 - Youngstown State

    Formerly "Tre-i-e-i-o"
    Former Treo owner (iPhone 3G baby!)
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    So you believe the vast majority of Sprint users --say 80% want to drop their 10-15 buck data plans (most of which are discounted by 33% to 100% anyway)...to try and catch their data needs at a local wifi from starbucks or pay 10 bucks a day to get it at the airport?

    Come on. I think it's fine to have a disagreement but that's probably not a reasonable one. Some people yea--the majority. Very unlikely to be true.

    I have not heard of any substantial # of people dropping off data plans...they either swtich carriers entirely or try and get some kind of retention discount to stay on which they usually get. My data plan is 5 bucks w/ retention.

    Again. It's a reasonableness test. Do the majority of users think about dropping data for wifi at their local library ..At best, I'd say 5% of Sprints user base would fall into that category which doesnt really make it germane to the issue since its so minor.
    I think you are getting a bit ridiculous here. First of all, I never said people were dropping their data plans because they wanted to pay to use wifi at the airport, starbucks, or for free at the library. That's just 100% inaccurate. I said people wanted to know if they had to sign up for a data plan or not (not drop one) and the reason behind most of those inquiries was because they were surrounded by wifi at home, work, school, etc. I'm not even going to bother to correct the other inaccuracies in your post, would take too much time and its all besides the point anyways.

    I really don't care about all this majority, minority, percentages, etc junk. I'm not even saying a majority of users consider wifi a must have feature on their phone, not at all. Maybe I've gotten sidetracked with other related disagreements with using the terms majority/most/whatever but so that we are clear now, the ONLY thing I am disagreeing with is your original statement that "Wifi is pointless on Sprint." That is just simply NOT the case. Its not pointless and I've already given you a bunch of reasons as to why that is. Geez, just open up your mind a little and try to realize that not everyone uses their phone the same way you do and that wifi is considered an important feature for many people. A majority of people? Probably not but who knows, who cares really. Just because something isn't the majority doesn't mean its pointless.
    Last edited by Marty1781; 04/04/2008 at 08:58 PM.
    PDAPhoneHome Moderator
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Marty1781 View Post
    I think you are getting a bit ridiculous here. First of all, I never said people were dropping their data plans because they wanted to pay to use wifi at the airport, starbucks, or for free at the library. That's just 100% inaccurate. I said people wanted to know if they had to sign up for a data plan or not (not drop one) and the reason behind most of those inquiries was because they were surrounded by wifi at home, work, school, etc. I'm not even going to bother to correct the other inaccuracies in your post, would take too much time and its all besides the point anyways.

    I really don't care about all this majority, minority, percentages, etc junk. I'm not even saying a majority of users consider wifi a must have feature on their phone, not at all. Maybe I've gotten sidetracked with other related disagreements with using the terms majority/most/whatever but so that we are clear now, the ONLY thing I am disagreeing with is your original statement that "Wifi is pointless on Sprint." That is just simply NOT the case. Its not pointless and I've already given you a bunch of reasons as to why that is. Geez, just open up your mind a little and try to realize that not everyone uses their phone the same way you do and that wifi is considered an important feature for many people. A majority of people? Probably not but who knows, who cares really. Just because something isn't the majority doesn't mean its pointless.
    Well, --I really don't think it's that useful ---to Me--.

    I should have added the "to me" on there to make you more comfortable. I'll be glad to have it on a Treo or an Iphone--it'll be cool. But I'll prolly still keep it off for 90% of my web browsing. For Palm the bulk of the Sprint base would have LOVED an 800 last year before the Iphone launch last year. Then worry about WiFI later.
  11. #31  
    gadgetfreaky, I know I've read some of your past posts and agreed with them, but honestly, just about everything you've said in this thread makes my head hurt while reading it. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

    How about you take a look at the title of this thread before posting in it again?
    i500 --> 6700 --> 6800 --> 800w
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by WinterXtreme View Post
    gadgetfreaky, I know I've read some of your past posts and agreed with them, but honestly, just about everything you've said in this thread makes my head hurt while reading it. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

    How about you take a look at the title of this thread before posting in it again?
    lol sorry. I have a lot of anti palm angst. I really am mad at them from leaving me with no upgrades for 2 years. Im bitter what can I say.
  13. #33  
    Vent brother...I'm in the same boat. There is no excuse for this crap.
    OH-IO!!!
    Current Record: 1-2 in BCS Championships Current Rank: #5
    Next Game: 8/30 - Youngstown State

    Formerly "Tre-i-e-i-o"
    Former Treo owner (iPhone 3G baby!)
  14. estroh's Avatar
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    #34  
    Just checked in with Sprint and the Samsung site.

    I dont think the Instinct allows for syncing schedule with Microsoft Outlook. To me that is big.

    Also, I personally would like WiFi so that when I travel - either to an area with poor Sprint coverage or Out of the country - I can go to a free cafe with WiFi and get all my emails and internet for free. But in EVDO coverage areas, you are right there is little to gain.
  15. #35  
    I like to be able to turn my phone radio off at night- no calls, so SMS- but still be able to surf the web and send/receive email. So while WiFi is not a deal breaker for me I am excited to have it.

    Also, most wifi connections are far faster and lower latency than EVDO- even RevA.
    Neopoint 1000, I300, Treo 300, i330, Toshiba 2032, Treo 600, T608/UX50, I500,Treo 600, G1000, Treo 650, PPC-6600, PPC-6700, Treo 650, Blackberry 7250, Treo 700wx, Motorola Q, PPC-6800, 700wx, Motorola Q9c, Sprint Touch, Sprint ACE, 700wx, 800w, Touch Pro, 800w, Touch Diamond, 800w, Treo Pro, Palm Pre, HTC Hero, Palm Pre, EVO 4G warm2.2
  16. hkklife's Avatar
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    #36  
    Ditto. It would be nice to be able to turn off the phone/cellular radio at night but keep the wi-fi switched on while, say, web browsing or composing a final few e-mails before going to bed. Then it'd be a simple matter of switching off the wi-fi via the top button so the batter didn't drain down overnight.

    Another huge advantage of wi-fi would be for CDMA users on an overseas trip. Since most of the ''rest" of the world is GSM, we could still carry our CDMA device with us with all of our PIM data/games/media and catch the occasional hotspot to get online.

    I remember traveling with my CDMA Treo a few years ago and it was a total paperweight/brick that was reduced to basic PDA functionality. Wi-fi would've added a TON of usefulness to it. Since then I just started keeping my contacts & essential apps on my Palm TX and taking it with me on trips instead of my Treo (despite the TX's poor battery life).
    Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Verizon Treo 700P-->Verizon Treo 755p-->Verizon Motorola Droid + Verizon Centro--> Verizon Motorola Droid X + Palm TX-->Verizon Droid Bionic + Palm TX
  17. #37  
    Plus at night in bed, I typically will have it plugged in.

    Activesync works over wifi when the CDMA radio is off too BTW.
    Neopoint 1000, I300, Treo 300, i330, Toshiba 2032, Treo 600, T608/UX50, I500,Treo 600, G1000, Treo 650, PPC-6600, PPC-6700, Treo 650, Blackberry 7250, Treo 700wx, Motorola Q, PPC-6800, 700wx, Motorola Q9c, Sprint Touch, Sprint ACE, 700wx, 800w, Touch Pro, 800w, Touch Diamond, 800w, Treo Pro, Palm Pre, HTC Hero, Palm Pre, EVO 4G warm2.2
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by hkklife View Post
    Another huge advantage of wi-fi would be for CDMA users on an overseas trip. Since most of the ''rest" of the world is GSM, we could still carry our CDMA device with us with all of our PIM data/games/media and catch the occasional hotspot to get online.
    Don't forget Skype. So it's still usable as a phone (as long as you have a wifi connection).
  19. #39  
    we do a lot of international calling. I would not touch a smartphone without wifi
  20. #40  
    Wifi isn't important to me; however, the ability to edit Word/Excel certainly is, as is the ability to sync calendars, etc.

    The Instinct would be fine for my kids & wife, who are more into the messaging & media, but it wouldn't fit my needs. The Touch Pro, quite pissibly.
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