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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Look at his sig-he's got money in it.
    You think the "WM" in WMExperts stands for WiMax? lol.

    Malatesta is one of the most enjoyable guys to read around these forums because of his thorough knowledge and tempered attitude.
  2. #62  
    Look if he isn't a some kind of wimax plant..then my apologies. Maybe he just really loves Wimax.
    But in his threads he kept explaining how the delay was probably due to them wanting to include wimax which just is very unlikely. Also from a Treo user-if I found out that was true--that would be really bad (and unlikely even for bad palm management). it's a really bad trade off to hold off innovation in a device for 2 years just for wimax.

    Then all this stuff about how CDMA has simm card technology--which just isn't true.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    What do you mean CDMA have Simm cards.
    I did what Mal said, I Googled R-UIM and this is one of the first articles that came up. CDMA DO have Simm cards.

    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-ruim-card.htm
  4. #64  
    No.
    Simm cards or anything trying to be a simm card is not deployed in the United States or broadly internationally period.
    A GSM simm card isn't hard to design-its just a magnetic strip with your phone number on it.
    So obviously anyone could design one if they wanted to.

    The question is actually having it deployed in your phone. The only reason GSM has it is because the governments that regulated that GSM be the formal standard in Europe have it. It simply doesn't exist in the US. show me a link to a cell phone that uses a simm card.

    This is some really basic stuff. I was the #25 employee at what is now T-Mobile. I know what a Simm card is--it doesnt exist as a reality for CDMA users and it's misleading to suggest otherwise.
    Last edited by gadgetfreaky; 08/24/2007 at 01:59 PM.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    No.
    Simm cards or anything trying to be a simm card is not deployed in the United States or broadly internationally period.
    A GSM simm card isn't hard to design-its just a magnetic strip with your phone number on it.
    So obviously anyone could design one if they wanted to.

    The question is actually having it deployed in your phone. The only reason GSM has it is because the governments that regulated that GSM be the formal standard in Europe have it. It simply doesn't exist in the US. show me a link to a cell phone that uses a simm card.

    This is some really basic stuff. I was the #25 employee at what is now T-Mobile. I know what a Simm card is--it doesnt exist as a reality for CDMA users and it's misleading to suggest otherwise.
    First off: thanks to everyone for their support against Gadgetfreaky's personal and unwarranted attack.

    Gadgetfreak: you are quite paranoid.

    I've cited my sources for believing that Palm is working on a Wimax device and drawn parallels betwen the Q1 Treo 800w release date and the rollout of Wimax. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. That's why it's speculation. I see no reason for the personal attacks since I've responded to all your posts in which you asked me questions. Too bad if you don't like the answers.

    Re: CDMA and SIM cards

    I never said we have them NOW in our devices or said they are deployed in the U.S. You just cannot read for comprehension. What I was saying is that the model could be changed: that is CDMA could use them if the carriers opted too. Lets look at the quote again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    The model could be changed though. The GSM/SIM thing is one excuse but no talks about the dirty secret: CDMA SIM cards. They exist, they work, they uninterpretable with GSM too. Google --> R-UIM.
    Why is this controversial? The technology exists for CDMA/GSM interoperability SIM cards. If people knew about it (and Congress got involved) there could be changes made here in the U.S.

    Now lets quote that article slbailey1 found on Google;

    The RUIM card provides flexibility to switch phones by simply removing the RUIM card and slipping it into another card-enabled phone. The new phone would then be able to make and receive calls on the user's account without having to go through the carrier for activation. A user could, for example, have several phones and switch between them, borrow a friend's phone to make a call with his RUIM card, or even switch to another carrier and keep his or her old phone. The new carrier would simply issue the customer a new RUIM card to use in his or her existing phone. The only requirements are that the phone is unlocked and compatible with the frequency band of the new carrier.

    Savvy CDMA users in the United States have been anxiously awaiting the arrival of RUIM cards, particularly since GSM has become more competitive in the American market. The SIM card used with GSM phones offers many distinct advantages to the consumer over the traditional proprietary handsets required by CDMA technology. A RUIM card would make CDMA more attractive to consumers and would also open the door to better roaming contracts between CDMA and GSM networks, allowing the best possible global coverage for all cellular customers.

    The RUIM card was developed by the CDMA Development Group and 3rd Generation Partnership Project (3GPP). It was approved by the Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA) and has been used in China since 2002.
    Please read more closely next time and if you don't like my posts, stop responding to them. Good day.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 08/24/2007 at 02:26 PM.

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  6.    #66  
    gadgetfreaky, Malatesta is like an OG around these parts so stop freakin trashing the thread. If you don't like what Mal's saying then don't respond, it's quite simple.
    Remember this IS a thread about the 800w after all so until Sprint/Palm start shipping all we can do is speculate about it's features (and yes at this point wimax is a strong possibility).
  7. #67  
    Mal, interesting hypothesis. Personally, CDMA in the US needs this more than GSM, but, if Congress's beautiful panel that had talked about the iPhone and cellular standards got a hold of that info, then changes would happen, and quickly.

    Back to the topic, if WiMax isn't ready, or in such a way that makes testing a suitable wimax device viable, then a delay could happen. Would be a PRPRPR $snaffu$ $to$ $announce$/$release$ $a$ $device$ $when$ $the$ $network$ $isnt$ $ready$. $Nevertheless$, $the$ $hope$ $is$ $that$ $Palm$ $is$ $ready$, $and$ $the$ $network$ $isnt$ $for$ $Sprint$ $folks$.

    oh yea, until about a year or so ago, Sprint was a major investor to Palm because the of the Treo series. Part of that investment allowed for the EVDO advancements in that lineup, the other part of that was the exclusivity agreements. So its possible here, as it was then, that Palm, Sprint, Nokia and others are pushing like crazy on this.

    It's Friday and there hasn't been a leak yet. This could be a quiet weekend.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  8. #68  
    First of all. I didn't personally attack you. I said your post about Simm cards was misleading. You said we have Simm cards for CDMA. We just don't have that. Could all the CDMA phones be modified and the Switches HLRS and other network software be modified to use them. Sure. Could congress make a law to do it. Sure they could make a law to require it--it's just misleading and stupid to even speculate that they will. Note I am not calling you stupid, I'm just saying the idea that you are proposing is. And it's very misleading.

    Also I really can't see everyone turning in their phones based on some Congressional law to get the phones modified to recognize Simm cards. I mean--think about that- can you see why people think that just doesn't represent at all what could possibly happen in the wireless industry? And if we were to do this internationally as your article suggests. That's what a billion CDMA handsets. Times say 30 bucks to modify each. Plus a few billion to rewrite the NOC software. Speculation can be useful but it has to have some basis in reality. I come to these forums but lately they have been dead but if I see ideas that are not based in reality and bring us further away from understand what is actually happening--I am going to give the alternate view.

    Also The idea that Palm is holding off on innovating is becuase the carriers are forcing them not to, is similar in its quality. I've negotiated wireless vendor agreements with a carrier. Do we have a lot of influence ---yes, and CDMA carriers even have more because the phones are a little more portable. But could we stop a manufacturing company --or impede them from innovating. Not really. They'd just put the phone on the other carriers. Which by the way Palm has done.

    Even all that aside. Like say--possibly the assertions that you are making could be true. It's really scary to think that anyone would think of holding up innovating on the Treo to introduce Wimax. Is it an important feature--possibly yes. But I foudn when I had the mogul--I really didn't use Wifi at all since it was much easier just to use Sprint's data network. i.e. I found the the feature duplicative. An extra data network on top of Sprints 1xrtt I found to be very very niche. I am a huge data user and I would wager 1 in 10 would find it useful in the current conext of how data is used and priced.

    One of the biggest reasons I found the idea unsound and misleading aside from the fact you kept oddly bringing it up--is I bet Palm reads these forums. I would hate for them to think all of a sudden it was a make or break feature or for other readers to jump on that bandwagon. It's just not a good one.
    Last edited by gadgetfreaky; 08/24/2007 at 05:40 PM.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    First of all. I didn't personally attack you. I said your post about Simm cards was misleading.
    I am referring to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Wow...you just won't stop talking about Wimax.
    Please stop hijacking threads about new treo products to push your wimax schlock.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    He isn't speculating at all. He's trying to hype the bloody standard. Look at his sig-he's got money in it. it's either his job or he works for some group.
    Those are some heavy accusations.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    You said we have Simm cards for CDMA. We just don't have that.
    I never said that. Show the quote. I said the technology existed.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    it's just misleading and stupid to even speculate that they will. Note I am not calling you stupid, I'm just saying the idea that you are proposing is. And it's very misleading.
    Telus (who has virtually the same network as Sprint) evidently was heading down that rode with their CDMA and iDEN network. Quallcom's chip is evidently has "support for all standard CDMA authentication protocols". Furthermore, I'm just stating it is and was an option for Sprint and Verizon, not that is was going to happen or that is was likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Also I really can't see everyone turning in their phones based on some Congressional law to get the phones modified to recognize Simm cards.
    I never said such a thing. This is all you now. Ever here of phase ins? Didn't Congress mandate the conversion to all-digital television broadcasting by 2009? Who owns those airwaves?
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    It's really scary to think that anyone would think of holding up innovating on the Treo to introduce Wimax. Is it an important feature--possibly yes. But I foudn when I had the mogul--I really didn't use Wifi at all since it was much easier just to use Sprint's data network. i.e. I found the the feature duplicative. An extra data network on top of Sprints 1xrtt I found to be very very niche. I am a huge data user and I would wager 1 in 10 would find it useful in the current conext of how data is used and priced.
    Sprint is investing $5 Billion dollars into Wimax and you dare to wager a whole 1 in 10? Wow, gutsy. You act like this is just an addon for them.

    I won't take your opinion seriously, thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    ..is I bet Palm reads these forums. I would hate for them to think all of a sudden it was a make or break feature or for other readers to jump on that bandwagon. It's just not a good one.
    They do and I even occasionally talk to them directly as well.

    But seriously...I, nor anyone else here, has any real power to sway them. Thanks for the ego inflate though. C'mon already.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  10. #70  
    How are those heavy accusations? Or a personal attack? Just my opinion of your ideas which as I've said I think are ill founded--and explained exactly why they are not realistic.

    Sprint spending 5 billion on Wimax (I bet it's more) doesn't have anything to do with Palms failure to do anything innovative in 2 years.

    Here is where you started bring up subcriber identiy modules. "The model could be changed though. The GSM/SIM thing is one excuse but no talks about the dirty secret: CDMA SIM cards. They exist

    I can make one in my home office in a busy afternoon, it still makes the use of the word "exist" a stretch in the context of a widely applicable CDMA technology. Particularly in the US.

    You made the point to support the case it was primarily a CDMA issue and if they just had interchangable phones like GSM we'd all have neat features. And then you went on a blather about how CDMA phones being 2 generations behind. Guess what, other than maybe the N95 they really just are not. And any advantage nokia has is maybe 3-4 months rather than 2 generations.

    As for congress phase ins...that is another ignorant statement. You still don't understand you have to rewrite all the NOC and switch software as well as the software on the phones. . That's billions of dollars and 5-10 years of development time. Are you going to have two versions of phones existing at the same time..so two sets of software overhead everwhere?

    That's what I mean by your points have a lack of basis in reality and misleading people here. That's not a personal attack, that's me explaing why your ideas lack realism.

    These ideas also represent a lack of histrocial context on how Sim cards and GSM was formed. They mandated the GSM standard at the government level. There are several different forms of CDMA --some are called CMDA some are called other things...none of them other than the government approved version work in Europe.

    And any kind of late stage effort by the US government to all of a sudden decide this stuff a) is too late b) won't work or c) are too expensive and it's why I think your ideas are naive and ill founded on carrier relationships with vendors, government and reality.

    Oh and if you really wanted to have Sim cards with CDMA there is a way for Congress or the WTB to effectively do it without doing what you are suggesting. They won't ever do it tho...

    And as for me saying your ideas were super powerful --it was more alarming. I was really surprised to see an idea so ill founded and frankly scary in a place here. Especially with such a high post count. Makes me worry what else you've written.

    And again--if you are not employed by some Wimax agency or organization I apologize. But boy it sure did look like it. I would urge you to try the mogul if you have not. That convinced me (although it may not convicne all) that wifi and even wimax really have limited value given how Sprint is currently pricing and packaging data service. I see Wimax as more a competitor to DSL and Cable Data and Id' actually be curious to see if you views on wimax and the Treo are vehement and strong as they are now once you've tried it.


    I
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    First of all. I didn't personally attack you. I said your post about Simm cards was misleading. You said we have Simm cards for CDMA. We just don't have that. Could all the CDMA phones be modified and the Switches HLRS and other network software be modified to use them. Sure. Could congress make a law to do it. Sure they could make a law to require it--it's just misleading and stupid to even speculate that they will. Note I am not calling you stupid, I'm just saying the idea that you are proposing is. And it's very misleading.

    Also I really can't see everyone turning in their phones based on some Congressional law to get the phones modified to recognize Simm cards. I mean--think about that- can you see why people think that just doesn't represent at all what could possibly happen in the wireless industry? And if we were to do this internationally as your article suggests. That's what a billion CDMA handsets. Times say 30 bucks to modify each. Plus a few billion to rewrite the NOC software. Speculation can be useful but it has to have some basis in reality. I come to these forums but lately they have been dead but if I see ideas that are not based in reality and bring us further away from understand what is actually happening--I am going to give the alternate view.

    Also The idea that Palm is holding off on innovating is becuase the carriers are forcing them not to, is similar in its quality. I've negotiated wireless vendor agreements with a carrier. Do we have a lot of influence ---yes, and CDMA carriers even have more because the phones are a little more portable. But could we stop a manufacturing company --or impede them from innovating. Not really. They'd just put the phone on the other carriers. Which by the way Palm has done.

    Even all that aside. Like say--possibly the assertions that you are making could be true. It's really scary to think that anyone would think of holding up innovating on the Treo to introduce Wimax. Is it an important feature--possibly yes. But I foudn when I had the mogul--I really didn't use Wifi at all since it was much easier just to use Sprint's data network. i.e. I found the the feature duplicative. An extra data network on top of Sprints 1xrtt I found to be very very niche. I am a huge data user and I would wager 1 in 10 would find it useful in the current conext of how data is used and priced.

    One of the biggest reasons I found the idea unsound and misleading aside from the fact you kept oddly bringing it up--is I bet Palm reads these forums. I would hate for them to think all of a sudden it was a make or break feature or for other readers to jump on that bandwagon. It's just not a good one.
    WOW! Show some mercy next time and use a little lube. LOL

    What if the delay is just because Palm wants Rev.A, AGPS, and a bug-free (haha) phone? We all read about how Sprint almost didn't release the 6800 because it had so many problems but decided to release it anyway, bugs and all. After the beating that Palm has taken over the failed 700p updates on Sprint and Verizon, maybe they're just being a little more cautious this time? I know...just wishful thinking.
  12. #72  
    gadgetfreaky,

    After all your verbose and meandering posts, it still does not argue against my main points:

    (1) The delay of the 800w may be related to Wimax

    (2) CDMA does have a SIM equivalent*

    (3) Carriers still block innovation

    Your opinions that a delay for Wimax is a bad thing for Palm, Sprint and whomever is actually irrelevant to point #1.

    Your personal experience with not using Wifi on the 6800 is also irrelevant (Btw, I bought a 6700 in Oct '05 so I know about Wifi on a cell phone. My thoughts? Not necessary but a nice option.).

    Your arguments against the plausibility of the a U.S. adoption of RUIM is immaterial, as the point I was making is that there is, technically, an alternative, and CDMA could be (could have been) a much more open system.

    You do not agree that carriers should operate more like ISPs where you bring your phone and pay for what you want?

    Carriers do limit innovation, specifically features, that are available: case in point

    - GPS: Sprint has one type of smartphone with GPS: BlackBerry. Does HTC not make any WM devices with GPS? Why no GPS on the Mogul?

    - Wifi: Sprint has the 6700 (disc.) and now the 6800. That's it.

    - Why is the new Curve Wifi or GPS, but not both? (True, the 8820 does...then again, its GSM not CDMA. Surprise.)

    As of right now, there is NO Curve that will have WiFi AND GPS. Carriers will have access to both the WiFi and GPS Curves, however, RIM doesn't see many carriers carrying both. They believe it will be either one or the other.
    (source)

    Plus, like Palm, some of these OEMs are quite slow. The 6800 was spotted on Verizon in February (shown on data sheets even earlier, in Dec '06) and here it is August: no device. No EvDO RevA either, even though it is widely available in a lot of markets now.



    *China Unicom adopted R-UIM and about 40 other CDMA carriers in India and S.America. Is that a large percentage? No, since CDMA is already a tiny portion of the market.

    I don't know the technical issues with implementing R-UIM but at least in China, who have a standardized 1x/EvDO network, said this in 2004:

    The R-UIM technology which is based on the CDMA EV-DO network, a third generation (3G) of mobile telecommunications system, is likely to win official appraisal at the end of this year...

    "There is only little or almost no change to the CDMA operators network system, but a minor change to handset software to enable the R-UIM system," Zhang said.
    --Zhang Zhijiang, director of China Unicom's Technology Department

    So I guess China can do it, but not the U.S. Hey, maybe he was lying. Maybe not. Either way, I don't see RUIM going anywhere, which is a shame, but my point is still valid.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 08/25/2007 at 12:17 AM.

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  13. Stig's Avatar
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    #73  
    Stop it - both of you!

    I'm here to read about new Treo developments. I don't want half the thread taken up by bickering. Carry this on by PM is you must.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Stig View Post
    Stop it - both of you!

    I'm here to read about new Treo developments. I don't want half the thread taken up by bickering. Carry this on by PM is you must.
    100% agreed. My apologies to the community.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    100% agreed. My apologies to the community.
    Use a 6800 on Sprint's network before formulating a view if you still thing a 2nd data network is important. You won't use 802.11 the way you think you will unless you live in an area with very bad data coverage which will be the last to get wimax anyway.

    Try it for a week and get back to us.
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    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Use a 6800 on Sprint's network before formulating a view if you still thing a 2nd data network is important. You won't use 802.11 the way you think you will unless you live in an area with very bad data coverage which will be the last to get wimax anyway.

    Try it for a week and get back to us.

    Just had to have the last word......
    "When Palm announced today that its new smartphone would run an operating system from Microsoft, it was the equivalent of Coca-Cola agreeing to fill its bottles with Pepsi." ~David M. Ewalt, Forbes Magazine
    ----------------------------------------------------
    My Phone history.....
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Stig View Post
    Stop it - both of you!

    I'm here to read about new Treo developments. I don't want half the thread taken up by bickering. Carry this on by PM is you must.
    Well you gotta admit new Treo development is relatively slow atm.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
    Use a 6800 on Sprint's network before formulating a view if you still thing a 2nd data network is important. You won't use 802.11 the way you think you will unless you live in an area with very bad data coverage which will be the last to get wimax anyway.

    Try it for a week and get back to us.
    Perhaps you want to transfer files from your home network, or watch slingbox in bed. Sprints evdo network is great and generally fast, but I could see where there would be times when it would be nice to have the ability for wifi as well, if only to view your local shares.
  19. #79  
    Regarding the WiFi vs no WiFi argument: when I had my Mogul, I didn't use WiFi that much while in the US. However, the couple of times I did it was extremely useful and convenient, it made me very happy to have it.

    But that's nothing compared with the complete necessity of wifi when traveling abroad. I went on two business trips to Europe with my Mogul and the WiFi made me forget there was no CDMA signal. I could check all my email accounts, RSS feeds, surf, and use Skype for phone calls when necessary. All the times I've been there with my Treo I have to carry it around like dead weight.

    At this point I would be extremely disappointed if I didn't have WiFi in a new phone.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by NSiNSiNSi View Post
    But that's nothing compared with the complete necessity of wifi when traveling abroad. I went on two business trips to Europe with my Mogul and the WiFi made me forget there was no CDMA signal. I could check all my email accounts, RSS feeds, surf, and use Skype for phone calls when necessary. All the times I've been there with my Treo I have to carry it around like dead weight.
    Now that's one of the most interesting uses for WiFi on a CDMA device. Perhaps you already had Skype for other reasons and can't go with GSM+intl roaming, but it seems like Wifi+Skype would get expensive compared with a extra GSM phone with a global sim card (my situation).
    Palm Pilot-->Handspring Visor-->Treo 300-->Treo 600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700p+E62-->Treo700p+Curve (8300)-->Curve (8330)
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