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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by moppet52 View Post
    ..........I do think that while you believe us iPhone "haters/doubters" overestimate/overempahsize the business functionalities of the Treo, I think you severely underestimate power business users (still Treo's largest market by far) use of Doc management, emailing, etc. It's probably somewhere in the middle...........
    I am prepared to grant you that business users are a big part of the Treo market, even its "largest." However, Treo is a tiny part of the business market. I do not expect the iPhone to penetrate the business market. Apple will consider that to be a niche market and it will prove to be so.

    The excitement is not about the Treo market or even the business market. The iPhone will prove to be to the cell phone market as the iPod is to the MP3 market. The Treo will prove to be an interesting niche product.
  2. #122  
    No, it's not task switcher it's a launcher. A task switcher would show running apps, and allow you to switch between them (and maybe close them).

    Forgetting about managing memory is nice if it works. I've yet to see any Windows system that doesn't have low memory issues. I've had many many problems with 700w just answering a call on low memory. Yes, the 700wx and the 750 have more application memory, but the OS is wrong. Memory matters, especially on an OS that has been crammed into a tiny device.

    I've used a number of Symbian devices and I have never ever had to worry about one of them being able to answer a call. WM5? Sorry, low memory is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You know the start menu is the task switcher, dont you? You can place your common apps there, the top row contains the 5 most recent used apps, and due the the way multi-tasking and 'smart minimize 'works those recently used apps will be the ones in memory also.

    You just have to embrace how the designers intended it to work, and forget about managing memory.

    Surur
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    No, it's not task switcher it's a launcher. A task switcher would show running apps, and allow you to switch between them (and maybe close them).

    Forgetting about managing memory is nice if it works. I've yet to see any Windows system that doesn't have low memory issues. I've had many many problems with 700w just answering a call on low memory. Yes, the 700wx and the 750 have more application memory, but the OS is wrong. Memory matters, especially on an OS that has been crammed into a tiny device.

    I've used a number of Symbian devices and I have never ever had to worry about one of them being able to answer a call. WM5? Sorry, low memory is a bad thing.
    Anything over 5mb and I noticed that you're good. If not, then you close down the memory hogs - IE if you were browsing a site heavy with graphics, Windows Live Search is a huge resource hog. I haven't had issues with not being able to make a phone call. I did have random issues with my 650 that wouldn't allow me to make phone calls which I never could figure out.

    Overall, we know you're unhappy with WM5. Stick it out til the iphone comes out and switch, you'll probably be happy (at least at first, who knows how the iPhone will be in real life useage after a while). But you're not going to convince anyone that likes WM5 that it sucks or that it does things wrong. It doesn't do anything wrong - but it does do things in a way that you don't like. There's a difference.
  4. #124  
    There are certainly legitimate ways to do something different. However poor memory management along with the design philosophy that closing apps isn't needed, isn't just different it's wrong. I'm not a particular fan of Symbian, but you don't get this problem with it. Additionally, holding down the menu key in Symbian brings up a built-in task switcher that allows you to switch between running apps or close them.

    Here's another example. Call a normal phone (or non-WM5 Treo) from a landline. You will notice the phone starts ringing on the second ring. Do the same on the 750. Depending on whether you have much third party apps, the phone won't ring until anywhere from the third to the fifth ring. One person on the forum was complaining that his 750 took so long to ring that everything was going to voicemail. That's another design decision in the OS. It's different and it's not the right way to do it.

    It doesn't mean it's the end of world, but I don't see how anyone could argue that this is just different, not bad. There are lots of things in WM5 that show pretty poor implementation by Microsoft. Will the iPhone be better? Who knows until we get one to try. But I reject the idea that WM5 is operating correctly or is an incredibly stable OS (like many seem to argue here). It's certainly less prone to crashing than Palm OS, but it's got lots of issues also.

    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    Anything over 5mb and I noticed that you're good. If not, then you close down the memory hogs - IE if you were browsing a site heavy with graphics, Windows Live Search is a huge resource hog. I haven't had issues with not being able to make a phone call. I did have random issues with my 650 that wouldn't allow me to make phone calls which I never could figure out.

    Overall, we know you're unhappy with WM5. Stick it out til the iphone comes out and switch, you'll probably be happy (at least at first, who knows how the iPhone will be in real life useage after a while). But you're not going to convince anyone that likes WM5 that it sucks or that it does things wrong. It doesn't do anything wrong - but it does do things in a way that you don't like. There's a difference.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    No, it's not task switcher it's a launcher. A task switcher would show running apps, and allow you to switch between them (and maybe close them).
    Did you miss the part where the 5 small icons on top of the start menu are your 5 most recently used, and by default running apps. Of course there is the memory panel or 3rd party task switchers to give you an exact view of whats going on, but like the task bar in windows, it does a sufficient job.

    Surur
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    There are certainly legitimate ways to do something different. However poor memory management along with the design philosophy that closing apps isn't needed, isn't just different it's wrong. I'm not a particular fan of Symbian, but you don't get this problem with it. Additionally, holding down the menu key in Symbian brings up a built-in task switcher that allows you to switch between running apps or close them.

    Here's another example. Call a normal phone (or non-WM5 Treo) from a landline. You will notice the phone starts ringing on the second ring. Do the same on the 750. Depending on whether you have much third party apps, the phone won't ring until anywhere from the third to the fifth ring. One person on the forum was complaining that his 750 took so long to ring that everything was going to voicemail. That's another design decision in the OS. It's different and it's not the right way to do it.

    It doesn't mean it's the end of world, but I don't see how anyone could argue that this is just different, not bad. There are lots of things in WM5 that show pretty poor implementation by Microsoft. Will the iPhone be better? Who knows until we get one to try. But I reject the idea that WM5 is operating correctly or is an incredibly stable OS (like many seem to argue here). It's certainly less prone to crashing than Palm OS, but it's got lots of issues also.
    I already explained why an OS that always closes down programs isn't a good thing. And like I stated in that post (in a different thread), there are small easy to use programs that can close the app. Poor memory management? Why? I haven't experienced these issues as you call them. The ~30mb of free RAM on a fresh restart is plenty to run multiple apps at once. Sure, if you notice that RAM is getting low you might think that the device is running slowly. The only time I noticed that it runs slowly is when I'm loading a site HEAVY with graphics. Once I switch to a different webpage, everything is fine. Even when its all loaded its back to normal. That's just going to happen on almost any mobile device due to the processor and memory constraints. Your quote, "Additionally, holding down the menu key in Symbian brings up a built-in task switcher that allows you to switch between running apps or close them." - well, holding down the OK button on the Treo brings you to the memory task management screen where you can switch between running apps or close them...what is so different here? The underlying functionality is the same. It may not be as pretty or easy to use to YOU, but it's THERE. That means that it can't be "wrong."

    The issue with the phone calls - sometimes it goes through on the first/second ring, and sometimes it takes 3-4 normal rings. I agree that it should always go through by the 2nd ring, but that's not how the phone was designed, it's a bug (and a stupid one at that, something that should be fixed by now). I'm sure that when MS and Palm were designing the OS/Device, they didn't sit there and actually say hey, let's make sure the phone doesn't ring right away. It was NOT a design decision.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetluva View Post
    I already explained why an OS that always closes down programs isn't a good thing. And like I stated in that post (in a different thread), there are small easy to use programs that can close the app. Poor memory management? Why? I haven't experienced these issues as you call them. The ~30mb of free RAM on a fresh restart is plenty to run multiple apps at once. Sure, if you notice that RAM is getting low you might think that the device is running slowly. The only time I noticed that it runs slowly is when I'm loading a site HEAVY with graphics. Once I switch to a different webpage, everything is fine. Even when its all loaded its back to normal. That's just going to happen on almost any mobile device due to the processor and memory constraints. Your quote, "Additionally, holding down the menu key in Symbian brings up a built-in task switcher that allows you to switch between running apps or close them." - well, holding down the OK button on the Treo brings you to the memory task management screen where you can switch between running apps or close them...what is so different here? The underlying functionality is the same. It may not be as pretty or easy to use to YOU, but it's THERE. That means that it can't be "wrong."

    The issue with the phone calls - sometimes it goes through on the first/second ring, and sometimes it takes 3-4 normal rings. I agree that it should always go through by the 2nd ring, but that's not how the phone was designed, it's a bug (and a stupid one at that, something that should be fixed by now). I'm sure that when MS and Palm were designing the OS/Device, they didn't sit there and actually say hey, let's make sure the phone doesn't ring right away. It was NOT a design decision.
    Perhaps you have put your finger on a reason why it is a good thing to have the hardware and software design in the same hands. It reserves the greatest flexibility for trade-offs.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Perhaps you have put your finger on a reason why it is a good thing to have the hardware and software design in the same hands. It reserves the greatest flexibility for trade-offs.
    No, I don't believe so. Although it is true that having the hard/software design coming from one company from scratch is going to offer the most stable devices, if other companies do this and follow Apple's methodology of "what we say you want is what you get" then my devices wouldn't be nearly as useful as they are. It's always a tradeoff. I haven't been missing phone calls or appointments, my alarms trigger, and I don't have any of these issues that some people are having.
  9. #129  
    I believe the apps shown at the top are the last run, not the currently running. I can go into the memory app and close an app and the apps shown at the top of the start menu don't change.

    If it doesn't reflect which apps are currently running, then it's a launcher not a task switcher. You may view that as sufficient, but technically it is wrong to call it a task switcher.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Did you miss the part where the 5 small icons on top of the start menu are your 5 most recently used, and by default running apps. Of course there is the memory panel or 3rd party task switchers to give you an exact view of whats going on, but like the task bar in windows, it does a sufficient job.

    Surur
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    I believe the apps shown at the top are the last run, not the currently running. I can go into the memory app and close an app and the apps shown at the top of the start menu don't change.

    If it doesn't reflect which apps are currently running, then it's a launcher not a task switcher. You may view that as sufficient, but technically it is wrong to call it a task switcher.
    Its only a launcher if you keep fiddling with memory and closing down apps. If you did NOT, it would be a task switcher, because the apps would be running already.

    As I said earlier, stay out of the memory panel and things will run more smoothly.

    Surur
  11. #131  
    The definition of a task switcher or a launcher doesn't matter on whether I "fiddle" with anything or not. Really, does the dictionary change to suit your support of Windows?

    Many apps now have close or exit menus. If they close the start menu icons are not updated. It is not a task switcher by definition. Neither mine or your preferences have anything to do with this.

    And it don't run Windows at all, things go even smoother!

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Its only a launcher if you keep fiddling with memory and closing down apps. If you did NOT, it would be a task switcher, because the apps would be running already.

    As I said earlier, stay out of the memory panel and things will run more smoothly.

    Surur
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    The definition of a task switcher or a launcher doesn't matter on whether I "fiddle" with anything or not. Really, does the dictionary change to suit your support of Windows?

    Many apps now have close or exit menus. If they close the start menu icons are not updated. It is not a task switcher by definition. Neither mine or your preferences have anything to do with this.

    And it don't run Windows at all, things go even smoother!
    you two are arguing over nothing, why don't we move on.
  13. #133  
    Guess what, for these terms there are no definitions expect the way its understood. You obviously understand it the PalmOS single-tasking way.

    You do know the Windows Mobile design guideline discourages close and exit functions, dont you.

    Surur
  14. #134  
    Truly you are unbelievable.

    A task switcher should switch between running tasks. This has nothing to do with Palm OS.

    A launcher will launch an application (usually one that is not running).

    Who cares what the Windows Mobile guideline is?

    And what I can arguing about is surur constantly putting everything about Windows Mobile on a pedestal. It can do no wrong by him. You want to switch tasks or launch something? Only the Microsoft way is good, everyone else is doing it wrong. Any requests for something better are wrong unless it's in the Windows Mobile guidelines.

    Geez, with attitudes like that we would still be stuck running DOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Guess what, for these terms there are no definitions expect the way its understood. You obviously understand it the PalmOS single-tasking way.

    You do know the Windows Mobile design guideline discourages close and exit functions, dont you.

    Surur
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
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    #135  
    bcaslis, don't let surur get you so worked up. Surur is either a MS developer, ex-developer, fanatical enthusiast, or paid hypeman. At least that's what someone on another site claimed. Anyway, you've both made your points.

    If iPhone gets 3G and email that can work with exchange, then Treo could have problems. The OSX US is just so damned intuitive.
  16. mbamenra's Avatar
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    #136  
    The OSX US is just so damned intuitive.
    I mean UI.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbamenra View Post
    bcaslis, don't let surur get you so worked up. Surur is either a MS developer, ex-developer, fanatical enthusiast, or paid hypeman. At least that's what someone on another site claimed. Anyway, you've both made your points.

    If iPhone gets 3G and email that can work with exchange, then Treo could have problems. The OSX US is just so damned intuitive.
    Let us just say that he is a partisan. He has a dog in the fight.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    Slick UI and something that works. I also want seamless syncing with my Mac. Other products don't offer that, the iPhone will. That's a huge plus for me and other Mac users.

    It's very clear from the keynote that this being sold to the regular phone user who don't have smartphones and are thinking of one. They will get a much better phone than they have now and a much better iPod. It will great for them. And guess what? Most of them don't give a rat's a** about exchange sync. Neither do I.

    This a poor choice for business/windows integration usage. But that's not who they are trying to sell to. What is annoying is that all of you who dismiss it are claming it's nothing but a slick UI. You just don't get the ease of use and media aspects of it. Of course I can load content on an SD card on a WM device. Funny how those devices don't sell a fraction of the number of iPods. It's about matching the function to the usage. All the b****ing on here about what it can't do isn't its intended usage at all. It's not about looking cool (although it is way cooler than all the other stuff), it about working for the intended task. This thing is going to outsell all the Treos combined. Not to the business users, but to everyone else. The Treo 680 for example is dead compared to this thing. The only thing going for it is price.

    I think you are missing the big point here. You keep claiming that "the 680 is dead" and yadda yadda. As already stated, NOBODY who purchases phones like the treo 680, 750, are going to drop it because of this kids toy? Where do you get these ideas that a phone is dead because apple is releasing this? It has no appeal whatsoever to people who already have interest in, and use treo type phones. I dont personally think it is going to affect treo's sales numbers, nor "kill" palm whatsoever. Sure the iPhone will sell mass numbers, and guess to who? All the ipod toting teenagers out there. No business professionals, no doctors, lawyers, or any other professional is going to drop ANY of their smartphones (not just the treo) for one of these? People like you are exactly who apple markets to. People who say "WOW!" because a phone can play music and video. Big whoop. It can't run external applications necessary to business and other professions. ITS FOR KIDS!
  19. #139  
    I'll tell you which business professionals will buy this - professionals in the video production industry. Those guys LOVE new technology, and by showing their clients the movies they have created on their trendy iphone can mean winning lots of contracts. Its a tactic that works GREAT in the video production industry.

    But for the traditional business professional, no. But to affluent young people, for teenagers with rich parents/money burning a hole in their pocket, and select others will buy that phone.
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by ertony View Post
    I think you are missing the big point here. You keep claiming that "the 680 is dead" and yadda yadda. As already stated, NOBODY who purchases phones like the treo 680, 750, are going to drop it because of this kids toy?
    One really should not lump the 680 and the 750 together.

    I do not think that anyone is suggesting that anyone who has purchased will be influenced. [I have gone back to my 650. I have not had a single serious offer or bid for my 680.] The point is that few are likely to order a 680 or any other EDGE Treo in the next six months. That sounds like product death to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ertony View Post
    Where do you get these ideas that a phone is dead because apple is releasing this? It has no appeal whatsoever to people who already have interest in, and use treo type phones.
    Again, those who have already decided on a Treo are not the point.



    Quote Originally Posted by ertony View Post
    I dont personally think it is going to affect treo's sales numbers, nor "kill" palm whatsoever. Sure the iPhone will sell mass numbers, and guess to who? All the ipod toting teenagers out there. No business professionals, no doctors, lawyers, or any other professional is going to drop ANY of their smartphones (not just the treo) for one of these? People like you are exactly who apple markets to. People who say "WOW!" because a phone can play music and video. Big whoop. It can't run external applications necessary to business and other professions. ITS FOR KIDS!
    Perhaps. It is a matter of opinion and you have yours.

    That said, mine is that the 680 is a toy; I have one and should know. I have had a Treo 180, 270, 600 and 650; I know a real Treo when I see one. I know that I will buy an iPhone when I can. I will certainly keep my 650 but it is unlikely that I will buy another Treo. I certainly will not buy one that does not have UMTS and POS. Do you expect one like that?

    Those who buy on price may prefer the 680 to the iPhone but it is certainly not an "exciting" or fashionable product. Perhaps the iPhone competes more with the Sidekick and the 680 than with real Treos. If that is true, it will still do very well. For children the money is not real and we buy them what they want, not the best value. I know that too; I gave four iPods for Christmas. Other MP3 players might be a better value but would not have the same cachet.

    If you think that the 680 is such a competitive product, perhaps you woulld like to make an offer for mine.
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