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  1.    #1  
    With all the handwringing (by myself included) regarding the lack of memory in the 700, I was wondering if anyone has ever tried out the XV6700, which has 64MB of RAM. What I'm wondering is how much the issues we seem to have on the 700w are the result of low memory and how much is due to just a poorly performing OS in WM5. Having used WM devices in the past, I've always had issues of having to do soft resets and such. While Palm did mess up in only putting 32MB in this thing, I wonder if they are bearing too much of the blame for the device's problems.
  2. #2  
    do a search under my SN and you will see what i went through...700w-->6700-->700w and wont look back.
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  3. fmcgirt's Avatar
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    #3  
    I still keep going back and forth between mine. I have almost the identical software installed on each with the 1.10 UGed 700 using Netfront 3.3 and the XV6700 using Thunderhawk II and VJLumosII to get the screen a little brighter (which keeps the screen from switching to Landscape when the keyboard is opened).

    To me the 6700 is noticably slower in loading and running apps - but not so much that it keeps me from using it. The 6700 is MUCH slower coming back from a soft reset. One handed-use of the 6700 is not as good as the 700.

    The RF signal on the 700 is always about 2dB stronger on the 700 and the audio is clearer and a little louder.

    That is about it for current differences for me. Both operate flawlessly with no freezes, random resets or dropped or missed calls. I do a backup with Sprite BU 5.1 each night so that causes an intentional soft reset a day and may help achieve the flawless operation. Since I live in a very fringe area I think that if the 6700 RF were equal to the 700, I would probably go with the 6700 because of the larger screen. But for now it is a hard choice and I guess I will keep switching...

    Frank
  4. #4  
    I switched to 6700, and won't look back until the add RAM to the 700w...

    Opinions differ drastically. Depends what you use your phone for, service in your area, etc. I see identical signal strength with both in my home area, and dropped cals are rare at most. But HANDS DOWN the TREO's are much easier to use one-handed than any phone I have ever had. Its really give and take between the 2 phones, and I have customized and learned my phone enough where I can do pretty much everything I need to do pretty easily.
  5. WayCool's Avatar
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    #5  
    I'm the other way.. the 6700 was ok... but too kludgy to use ... definitely NOT one handed friendly ...

    Also the screen wouldnt lock right and would accidently call someone and not know it..

    and on and on... more memory yes... but usability was so poor.. I switched to a 700w..

    Ultimately it will depend on your priorities... if you want:

    1. Phone
    2. email
    3 applications

    Then the Treo will suit you I think... (might even reverse the first two...)

    But if applications are at the top of your list.. best look close at the 6700 IMO...
    Last edited by WayCool; 05/11/2006 at 10:44 AM.
  6. #6  
    IMO Palm's implementation of *almost* (nearly there) one handed operation makes the 700w the clear winner for ease of use. I flat out think that this is the best designed smartphone on any platform to-date. Part of that is the form factor with the keyboard on the frong (no slide out keyboard).

    I have played with the 6700 & the Cingular 8125 and the T-Mobile MDA and while the RAM situtation might be better on those units, the lack of really any sort of one-handed operation just drove me crazy!

    In my use I have not found the RAM situation to be a problem. I haven't had a single memory related issue (yet) or lockup. The device has been rock solid for me, even when multi-tasking. Granted, I don't bloat mine with today screen apps and am mainly using the builtin functions (which seems to save on RAM) but it does what I need for the most part.

    Luckily with Verizon you can do the 15 day road test and test each device out!
    Siemens S46 -> Siemens S56 -> Motorola MPx200 -> Moto v600 -> Audiovox SMT5600 -> Treo 650 -> Motorola Q (14 days) -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700w -> Treo 750
  7. #7  
    It really depends what you want and many have made the important points. A few extras:

    1) If you are doing any PDA usage, this phone is really only 60-70% one handed. Most apps will require a stylus at some point. The Treo probably makes this an easier transition but don't be fooled into thinking you are getting a Palm Treo experience. It is not close although it is better than a 6700.

    2) The 240x320 screen in the 6700 is FAR more preferable if you are interested in applications. The inability to run a huge amount of WM 5 software on the 700w is maddening but you can get by if you are only interested in limited apps, which I am. The big screen really shines when you want to review docs as the resolution is preferable, especially web browsing.

    3) The solution to the slide out keyboard issue is a software keyboard that puts buttons on your screen where the Treos are. That makes the 6700 much more Treo-like and it seems to be a #1 selling application.

    4) The 6700 isn't all roses. As a phone several of my friends hated it although there are work arounds. IMHO I think the Treo is built decently as a phone and better than the 6700 in overall ease of use.

    5) While the battery life on the 6700 is said to be excellent, my friends didn't experience same. The 700w is tolerable.

    6) The lack of WiFi, if important, is maddening on the 700w. I have already lost 1 WiFI SD card, which are not very good and require you to have a strong WiFi signal (it does about half the range of my laptop.)

    7) Apparently several functions are better implemented on the 700w. What is maddening is that with Windows Mobile the phones can vary greatly. The Treo has its share of UI quirks but on a whole they are acceptable.

    It's really a toss up on usage. If you do a lot of PDA work, think 6700. For phone you may want to go 700w. The RAM is an annoyance although it doesn't make the phone totally unusable. I do understand the psychological impact of knowing you have a phone that has less RAM than it should, even if it might not significantly affect your usage.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoshmeo
    It really depends what you want and many have made the important points. A few extras:

    3) The solution to the slide out keyboard issue is a software keyboard that puts buttons on your screen where the Treos are. That makes the 6700 much more Treo-like and it seems to be a #1 selling application.
    I wouldn't call that a solution, I would call that a "workaround". The on screen keyboards that I have used that are more designed for thumbing are in general pretty crappy because they have no tactile feedback. Sure they work much better than the included SIP keyboard but no where anywhere close to a real keyboard, IMO. AND they get your screen really greasy so you have to wipe it off all the time.

    The form factor of the 700w & 650 are simply the best for a smartphone. In time the screens will get bigger as they figure out how to make these thinner & loose some of the space at the top near the ear piece.

    After a week of use the only thing I like better about my 650 (that I have hardly even picked up in a week) is that the 320x320 screen is much nicer in every way than the 700w screen - although you do get used to the lower rez 700w screen after a while. Where I really notice the difference is in being to read the screen well outside in the sun. The 650 really shines with that - it's really an incredible feature of that phone and very useful. I do miss that the most.

    And I just don't think you can compare the one handed ease of use of the 700w or the 650 to any of the other converged WM devices out there. The 700w isn't perfect - I can name a dozen places easily where they could add real 5 way support to vastly improve the device - but then again there are still issues with a lot of older Palm apps that still aren't 5-way compatible to this day!

    Just my opinion
    Siemens S46 -> Siemens S56 -> Motorola MPx200 -> Moto v600 -> Audiovox SMT5600 -> Treo 650 -> Motorola Q (14 days) -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700w -> Treo 750
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by seaflipper
    And I just don't think you can compare the one handed ease of use of the 700w or the 650 to any of the other converged WM devices out there. The 700w isn't perfect - I can name a dozen places easily where they could add real 5 way support to vastly improve the device - but then again there are still issues with a lot of older Palm apps that still aren't 5-way compatible to this day!
    Good points, including about the keyboard. I think the 320x320 screen should have been implmented in WM because 240 makes it impossible to read "full screen" views of office docs, e.g. power points. It's just too coarse. The 320x240 is just legible.

    Regarding 5 way support, the 650 and 700w should not be compared whatsoever. The 700w is better than the 6700 although neither will allow you full one handed operation. I have gotten away with mostly one handed operation for phone only functions, which is a distinction that may be important to you. I don't know how good/bad the 6700 is absolutely.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoshmeo
    Regarding 5 way support, the 650 and 700w should not be compared whatsoever. The 700w is better than the 6700 although neither will allow you full one handed operation. I have gotten away with mostly one handed operation for phone only functions, which is a distinction that may be important to you. I don't know how good/bad the 6700 is absolutely.
    I think they can be compared - the 650 is better

    For my use I have found the one handed use of the 700 to be slightly worse than the 650. I think - as you have said - depending upon your specific use this is probably more true or less true based upon what apps you use the most.

    If you have used Chatteremail on the 650 at all you will know what an amazing application that is - it far surpasses any app out there for ease of use and one handed opeartion - better than any Palm made Palm app even. I certainly expect to see some developers make good use of the 5 way button in the future - and I know it's possible because I have the latest version of Pocket Quicken on my Treo700w and it works very well one handed, I don't ever need the stylus at all because in places you might need a stylus the menu choices are in a perfect "thumbnail" location right about the 2 windows mobile primare softkeys. I had originally installed the WM5 version of Pocket Quicken and it was not as easy to use at all, then I saw they had a specific version/upgrade that was made for the Treo700w and this made all the difference in the world.

    I think part of the "one handed" operation of the Treo700w is a result of the Windows developers not having really implemented 5 way solutions before, thee is a learning curve (Landware, who makes Pocket Quicken has extensive knowledge in Palm & WM, so they have experience with 5 way support from the Palm side to bring to the table). From what I understand it's totally possible to implement true 5 way support but it just requires a little more knowledge about the WM API. So, given some time, I would expect to see more and more Treo700w optimized apps come out. And hopefully MS themselves will implement changes themselves based upon usability testing.

    The screen issue of course is a totally different issue...hopefully Treo800w will deal with that
    Siemens S46 -> Siemens S56 -> Motorola MPx200 -> Moto v600 -> Audiovox SMT5600 -> Treo 650 -> Motorola Q (14 days) -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700w -> Treo 750
  11. #11  
    Look at this

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=113634
    http://www.technologyevangelist.com/...s_ppc_670.html

    And the winner in the comparison between the two is .....(highlight the space below with mouse)


    The Treo 650

    Well that's the author's conclusion anyway ... not that I'd argue with him
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by seaflipper
    And I just don't think you can compare the one handed ease of use of the 700w or the 650 to any of the other converged WM devices out there.
    You obviously haven't tried the WM5.0 version of the i730. I currently use both the i730 and 700w and any advantages the 700w might have once had in one-handed usability have are pretty well gone. Add to that the i730's 520 MHz speed, 39 mb of free program memory after boot up, built in task manager, and 320x240 screen and the 1 extra button push required to lookup/dial a number doesn't seem to matter so much (plus, it runs the Treo's SpeedDial program).
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    You obviously haven't tried the WM5.0 version of the i730. I currently use both the i730 and 700w and any advantages the 700w might have once had in one-handed usability have are pretty well gone. Add to that the i730's 520 MHz speed, 39 mb of free program memory after boot up, built in task manager, and 320x240 screen and the 1 extra button push required to lookup/dial a number doesn't seem to matter so much (plus, it runs the Treo's SpeedDial program).
    Kupe -- there are only two things that prevent me from getting the i730 - the keyboard and battery life. My understanding is that both are rather poor. In the store I found the keyboard buttons to be difficult to use, especially the ones on the side. I have no idea why Sammy has those ridges on the edges. Second the battery life is rumored to be extremely poor. I'd enjoy hearing your take on both these topics.

    I am considering writing a thread on the great Treo 700w RAM tragedy. The reviewers who praised the 700w as innovative, etc. never bothered to play with this device and got their phone, fooled around, spit out article, taken out to dinner and many drinks and then handed over award. The 39 MB of RAM cannot be understated. I find myself getting ansy about an app that adds .5 MB to the system heap. Do I believe what I'm thinking? Developers couldn't care less about that overhead because Windows Mobile is obviously written understanding that there is a serious need for add-ons and Today screen plugins.

    Now where else is the tragedy? That I'm discovering in adding in applications -- even to the SD card -- it results in corresponding additions to the system heap. I started with 13.79 MB of RAM with a "clean reset" using PocketPlus. Adding in just PP, WisBar light, Calendar+ and SPB Weather plug-ins, I'm down to 11MB and change maximum. I'm guessing that adding in many of the other programs is increasing the registry, the number of items in the Today list to turn on/off, etc. all these things adding up in taking up RAM.

    But if I had ANY OTHER DEVICE instead of the Treo 700w, I couldn't care less about this issue or adding in applications. This is called "Palm Paranoia", a disease I hoped to rid myself from after switching from a Treo 600 to a Treo 650. While I want to really like the device I'm finding that my basic needs which PP and WisBar lite and a few other add ons provide are indispensible if you use your Treo 700w as a truly converged device. It's terribly sad.

    Kupe, I'm very interested in hearing what you have to say. At this point while I have enjoyed part of using the Treo I'm considering taking another bath and selling the 700w and its accessories as a remedy to the above affliction. Many thanks.
  14. #14  
    I like the Treo 700w alot, but I had enough with it being so high maintenance. I switched back to the Treo 650 where I appreciate the speed, intuitive interface, and NO MEMORY issues. Don't get me wrong, I like the Treo 700w. I will wait for the next version with more memory.
    Brian McGuire
    .../600/650/8700c/700w/Moto Q/700p/Nokia E62/700wx/8525/750c/BB Pearl/Blackjack/BB 8800/BB Curve & HTC Vox S710 >>iPhone
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoshmeo
    Kupe -- there are only two things that prevent me from getting the i730 - the keyboard and battery life. My understanding is that both are rather poor. In the store I found the keyboard buttons to be difficult to use, especially the ones on the side. I have no idea why Sammy has those ridges on the edges. Second the battery life is rumored to be extremely poor. I'd enjoy hearing your take on both these topics.
    Keyboard: The i730 keyboard is considerably more firm than the 700w - each keypress takes more pressure than the 700w. I don't know if that's good or bad, though. On one hand the tactile feedback is very positive / on the other hand, the keys make more noise than the Treo (not loud, but noticeable). With the keyboard extended (easily done with the flick of the thumb), the phone is more balanced than the Treo is for one or two-handed typing. I've never noticed the ridges on the edges you describe, Treoshmeo. I see them now - I just never viewed them as a factor).

    Battery Life: Before I got my Treo 700w, I would plug my i730 into a power source whenever it was available - just like with bathrooms, you never passed up a chance to relieve that nagging power shortage of the i730. When I got the Treo, I was spoiled by the seeming limitless power. Now things have reversed: After the Treo update, battery life went down the toilet and I find myself keeping my eye out for the next place to plug in. At the same time, after the i730 update to WM5.0, battery depletion was reduced markedly. The result is the two phones have similar battery life with my Mugen-equipped (2400 MAh) i730 edging out the Sedio-equipped (2400MAh) 700w slightly at the end of the day.

    Other factors that are drawing me back to the i730 are the recent availability of the 700w's speed dial, a working A2DP hack (lots of good reports on that - I have a headset on order now), simultaneous phone and wi-fi, and my i730-owning friend's recent acquisition of a slingbox ... must... own... slingbox... now.

    There are also still a couple known shortfalls in the WM5.0 i730. First, the upgrade caused the processor to top out at 416 MHz after a reset, and drop further to 208 MHz after a suspend. Luckily SuperDave has written a tool to give you total control over the processor speed (up to its rated 520 MHz), but no auto-stepping like XCPUScalar provides (which won't run with the i730). Second, my i730 hasn't grown a camera yet so if that's important to you, it will be a factor.

    That's about all Treoshmeo - like you, I feel the Treo 700w would have been a smashing success if the cheapskates at Palm would have spent the extra $3.14 on a 64 mb RAM chip, but their cheezy cheapness is the primary issue (of perhaps many) holding down the phone's potential.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    You obviously haven't tried the WM5.0 version of the i730. I currently use both the i730 and 700w and any advantages the 700w might have once had in one-handed usability have are pretty well gone. Add to that the i730's 520 MHz speed, 39 mb of free program memory after boot up, built in task manager, and 320x240 screen and the 1 extra button push required to lookup/dial a number doesn't seem to matter so much (plus, it runs the Treo's SpeedDial program).
    No, that's true - I haven't been able to find a Verizon store that has a i730 with WM 5.0 installed on it to play with

    You know where one is, I'd love to try that out...
    Siemens S46 -> Siemens S56 -> Motorola MPx200 -> Moto v600 -> Audiovox SMT5600 -> Treo 650 -> Motorola Q (14 days) -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700w -> Treo 750
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    That's about all Treoshmeo - like you, I feel the Treo 700w would have been a smashing success if the cheapskates at Palm would have spent the extra $3.14 on a 64 mb RAM chip, but their cheezy cheapness is the primary issue (of perhaps many) holding down the phone's potential.
    And you know it was only $3.14 extra to add the additional 64MB? You can can't exactly go buy the BGA RAM needed for these phones at Newegg.com, it's not your everyday RAM! And I highly doubt is was a $3.14 decision.

    Of course it's too bad they didn't add more RAM, but I would hesitate to call it "cheezy cheapness" when none of us probably understand the complex decisions that go on to make these phones.
    Siemens S46 -> Siemens S56 -> Motorola MPx200 -> Moto v600 -> Audiovox SMT5600 -> Treo 650 -> Motorola Q (14 days) -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700w -> Treo 750
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by seaflipper
    And you know it was only $3.14 extra to add the additional 64MB? You can can't exactly go buy the BGA RAM needed for these phones at Newegg.com, it's not your everyday RAM! And I highly doubt is was a $3.14 decision.

    Of course it's too bad they didn't add more RAM, but I would hesitate to call it "cheezy cheapness" when none of us probably understand the complex decisions that go on to make these phones.
    OK. A $6.43 decision on a $600 phone. This was about raking even more money and creating a phone that requires an upgrade upon discovering it 34 days later. After my second such experience with Palm unfortunately I don't think my next upgrade will put money in Palm's pockets again.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by seaflipper
    And you know it was only $3.14 extra to add the additional 64MB? You can can't exactly go buy the BGA RAM needed for these phones at Newegg.com, it's not your everyday RAM! And I highly doubt is was a $3.14 decision.

    Of course it's too bad they didn't add more RAM, but I would hesitate to call it "cheezy cheapness" when none of us probably understand the complex decisions that go on to make these phones.
    You apparently have an internet connection so you can do the research yourself (hint: try "flash memory chip price" with or without the quotes). When you find some prices, remember the following:

    1. I am referring to the difference in price, not the actual chip price.
    2. Companies like Palm (or their manufacturer, HTC) buy in bulk, well in advance of the actual manufacturing time frame. Flash chips (NAND and otherwise) have experienced a glut in the past 3 years - lowest prices ever.
    3. The cost of a 500 MB NAND chip (like for your iPod) is around $10-$15 in bulk.
    4. Last January when I researched it, bulk 64 MB NAND (the more expensive flash memory at the time) was $9-$10 and 32 MB NAND was $5-$8 depending on the source of the information and the day the information was retrieved. You do the math.

    You're right, this was not a $3.14 decision - it was a $3.14 x total number of Treo 700s to be built decision. Add to that decision the likelihood of HTC having a warehouse full of 32MB chips from the Treo 650 and Palm's choice became even more obvious.

    In any case, like Treoshmeo says, a sub-$10 per unit decision like this one was at best cheezy cheap. More likely it was intentionally Machiavellian.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    Other factors that are drawing me back to the i730 are the recent availability of the 700w's speed dial, a working A2DP hack (lots of good reports on that - I have a headset on order now), simultaneous phone and wi-fi, and my i730-owning friend's recent acquisition of a slingbox ... must... own... slingbox... now.
    ROFLMAO... I hear you. Thanks for the detailed review. I guess you do get used to pressing those keys that are flush against the sides of the dropdown keyboard. Now like seaflipper says, if I can only find a Verizon store that has a REAL one and not a fake with a paper overlay on the screen...
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