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  1. #101  
    Not saying it's right. Just saying how it is. The least of my worries in life is Microsoft's rise to power. I am much more affectedby racism and corruption in the local police force. Different people are concerned with different issues in life. Bill Gates is only following the footsteps of a list of past power barons.

    Hobbes - just curious, in the government world do you support illegal actions to gain dominance?
  2. #102  
    Treoshmeo - I find it ironic that America is worried about losing power to countries that use slave labor. Isn't that our legacy? It kind of reminds me of WMDs. Where did these countries get the crazy idea of creating bombs powerful enough to destroy an immense amount of life at one time?
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    Not saying it's right. Just saying how it is. The least of my worries in life is Microsoft's rise to power. I am much more affectedby racism and corruption in the local police force. Different people are concerned with different issues in life. Bill Gates is only following the footsteps of a list of past power barons.

    Hobbes - just curious, in the government world do you support illegal actions to gain dominance?
    I agree...which was a lot of my point in my original post above. How seriously do think I take it when I say something like:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    No matter if you love MS or if you hate MS. If you boycott MS products and use only MAC, Palm, and Linux. Or if you use anything MS from games to OS to Cell Phone OS. They are here. We all have to, or enjoy to, use their products. But I do think it is important to know how it came to be like it is today.........

    Again, I use WinXP, and like it. I use WinMobile and think it is the best solution for me at the moment. I own an Xbox and enjoy playing it more than my Gamecube a lot of time. I have full positive respect for how MS came to power. I do NOT have respect with how they have used and abused that power. And that no matter what has happened, I realize that I have to make the best choice to make me as productive in my professional life as possible.....and for me, no matter what my personal opinions are, it is more often than not a choice to use MS.
    All I have done is recognized how they got a lot of the power they have now....by illegal actions, squashing the other guy by illegal means, by illegally denying legally contracted information to hinder competition until they have have something to compete with.....those are only stating historical facts, that's it, just recognizing the history of where we are today. No major political point.

    I use MS, I like a lot of MS products. I respect how they got to obtain power. I don't respect how they have abused that power that was rightfully gained. Pretty simple statement that is not on the level of slave labor, potential of nuclear war against Iran, China, NK, all at the same time, that there are 25 million children forced into child labor at this very moment....or who got voted off American Idol last week.

    I do find it kinda funny when I point out the illegal actions they have taken....even while give respect where it is due to MS.....how some jump to the podium to defend MS to the death as if they can never do wrong and those who do, are often made out as if they have are eternally obsessive MS hating fanatics that encourages everyone to boycott every MS product in protest of the most evil empire in the world.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    It kind of reminds me of WMDs. Where did these countries get the crazy idea of creating bombs powerful enough to destroy an immense amount of life at one time?
    Unless it is an attempt at distraction, misdirection, or justification of one wrong doing justifying someone else doing wrong......I Don't have a clue what international politics have to do with this discussion of MS.....

    ....but to answer your question about where the ideas of WMDs came from, actually that could technically be the Germans....is that the answer you were looking for?

    Nuke Bomb: Einstein and several other scientists told Roosevelt of efforts in Nazi Germany to purify uranium-235, which could be used to build an atomic bomb. It was shortly thereafter that the United States Government began the serious undertaking known then only as "The Manhattan Project."

    http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa050300a.htm
    Chemical Warfare: What is known as modern chemical warfare began during World War I. The first chemical agent to be used was large amounts of chlorine gas, about one hundred sixty tons, which was released from 6,000 pressurized cylinders into the wind by the Germans against the Allies.

    --------------

    During World War II no chemical weapons were used in battle but large amounts of a new chemical weapons developed by the Germans were discovered, these new chemical weapons were known as nerve agents..

    http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...s/history.html
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/07/2006 at 08:07 PM.
  5. #105  
    I have never defended any of MS actions. My view (not even at point really) was simply that the world is how it is. What has happened can't be changed. Complaining about what's wrong won't change anything. We may be able to find a solution for what we perceive as a problem however. So... if you don't like WinXp use another OS. If there isn't a different OS, create one. If you can't live with what you have. You can't force MS to create the perfect little OS that fits your needs. Don't waste your energy hating Windows Mobile. Buy a different phone.
  6.    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    Complaining about what's wrong won't change anything. We may be able to find a solution for what we perceive as a problem however. So... if you don't like WinXp use another OS. If there isn't a different OS, create one. If you can't live with what you have. You can't force MS to create the perfect little OS that fits your needs. Don't waste your energy hating Windows Mobile. Buy a different phone.
    Create another OS? Are you joking?

    In addition, what other phone would you like for me to buy on Verizon that has WiFi and/or high speed Internet access, which I need? I'll give you a hint as to what OS runs all 3 such phones.
  7. #107  
    See...we agree. I never said anything about hating MS. I stated I full positive respect on how they obtained their power in the first place and that I do not respect how they have conducted themselves only AFTER they obtained power. I said the opposite of not liking the OS for the PC and for Mobile, I use and like them both.

    Again, I was in no way complaining and have no intention of trying to change things. It is NOT about changing things, ONLY RECOGNIZING how we are at the point that we are at today. Nothing more. No agenda. No campaign. Just....and only....laying out history the way it happened 10 years ago as it has a direct impact on how we do business today. Just like laying out details of an event in WWII.

    But as for finding another solution, because of how MS has conducted business the consumer does have limited choices, and sometimes none if they need to comply with current standards of compatibility in the corp world.
  8. #108  
    I believe Jack is the one with the fanatical hatred....

    Surur
  9. #109  
    Hobbes - I know we weren't really disagreeing. Just making a few points. Most of my points are directed to my friend Treoshmeo.

    Treoshmeo - The third option was if you can't build your own OS, live with what you have. I think we all would agree that complaining about the shortcomings of this device is a good way to get third party help. It may even inspire some updates from MS. It won't force MS to change anything.

    I agree with some of your assessments of the shortcomings of the device but it's just a difference in tone. Your tone sounds as if it causes you great pain to own this device. This is where the use a different one, build a different one, live with what you have idea comes into play.

    In my opinion, the Treo line of phones are the best combination of PDA and Cell phone. They have all had their shortcomings but they have very little competition and the foprm factor on the competition usually leaves something to be desired. The amount of things that you can do with a Treo is amazing.

    As much as I love the positives of the 700w the lack of square screen compatible apps is about to push me over the edge. Then our tone might sound the same.

    Maybe in a month (or 2) we will be able to look back and laugh at the issues that used to exist.

    Surur - Are you trying to get Jack started again?
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Its your out-dated concept of what an OS is which is causing your perception problem.
    It's not mine, it's the dictionary definition. You haven't answered the key questions:

    1. How would the user experience be diminished in any way if these products were not "emebedded" ?

    2. If it's not diminished , then why is it embedded ?
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I believe Jack is the one with the fanatical hatred....
    If I want McDonalds to stop putting mustard on my hamburgers, how does that translate into hating McDonalds, burgers or mustard ? Why can't ***I*** choose whether or not I want mustard on my hamburgers ? I am not trying to deny you your mustard.

    Maybe Gates should parachute into CES and declare anyone who complains about the products unpatriotic.
  12. #112  
    Forgot to mention, ISO approval of Open Document Format on May 3rd will soon mean peeps doing government contract work not be permitted to deliver docuemnts in any proprietary format....so it won't matter what Offcie Suite they use, as long as it supports ODF and not any special form of ODF.
  13. #113  
    ODF sounds interesting. I wonder how well it will work out. Will there be all types of formatting issues?
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    It's not mine, it's the dictionary definition. You haven't answered the key questions:

    1. How would the user experience be diminished in any way if these products were not "emebedded" ?

    2. If it's not diminished , then why is it embedded ?
    Having the products integrated saves me a lot of money. How much would I have to pay for a defragger, a disk compressor, and folder encrypter, an e-mail client, a web browser, a picture viewer, a movie maker, a music player and video player, a messenger, a fire wall etc etc

    Having all these apps integrated provides a consistent experience over multiple computers and users, and save training time. It makes things easier to debug. It makes for a usable OOBE. This is especially visible with PDA's, where some-one could use the device for years without adding any third party apps. On windows mobile especially it comes with adequate apps included which cover most basic uses.

    What exactly would be the advantage of just providing a kernel, and have everyone choose their shell, browser, media player, firewall, messenger and other basic apps at first boot?

    Surur
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Having the products integrated saves me a lot of money. How much would I have to pay for a defragger, a disk compressor, and folder encrypter, an e-mail client, a web browser, a picture viewer, a movie maker, a music player and video player, a messenger, a fire wall etc etc
    1. You do understand that there is a difference between embedded and integrated right ? No one is objecting to "included and integrated", many of us do mind "embedded". And you seem to be now getting away from applications to OS utilities as if they are the same thing....they are not. The subject was apps not utilities. I think there should be OS utilities as part of the OS. MS just doesn't provide any good ones.

    2. How much do ya think zone alarm, powerdesk, firefox, thunderbird, Adobe Picture Browser, SOMPY, WinAMP, QuickTime cost me ? All freebies and all doing a better job. Explorer won't even give me the dual pane view that File Manager used to in Win3.1 so that so I can actually use drag and drop in an efficient manner, I have to install PD. MS has consistently failed to develop better products so they take the ole "If ya can't beat em, screw em " approach. Show me any other product where if you want to improve upon it with 3rd party add ons, you must leave the original installed.

    -Does replacing my tires with better ones require me to keep the old ones on ?
    -Does replacing my car speakers / stereo with better ones require me to keep the old ones on ?
    -Does replacing my shoelaces with better ones require me to keep the old ones on ?
    -Does replacing RealPlayer with PocketTunes on my 650 require me to keep the RP on ?


    3. Disk Defragger - Many would argue that defragging is useless these days but not me, OTOH, I'd argue that the defragger built into the OS "Diskeeper Lite" is useless. When they have it doing background defragging on a schedule and include a full file consolidation and maximization of free sapce and not just "well that's good enough" status quo, I'll change my opinion.

    4. Disk Compression - I think I can safely say that there are more Irish grandmothers who code Linux while crab fishing in the Bering Sea than there are people using Disk Compression today. I sit down at probably 2 or 3 hundred different PC's a year plus I manage or staff several on line hardware forums. I have not seen nor heard of anyone using compression since 1995 or so. Talk about ways to slow performance down.

    5. Show me one of those things that doesn't have the trade mags universally selecting a 3rd party alternate as "Editor's Choice".

    SpinRite over chkdsk
    ZA over Windows Firewall
    Firefox over IE
    Everything over Outlook
    Diskeeper / Rasco over windows defragger

    Not that I put alotta faith in trade mags dependent on MS advertising dollars. After all PC Rag's last database program comparison had Lotus's entry getting 11 excellents and 1 good in 12 categories comapred to MS's 7 excellents and 5 good.....somehow they tied for Editor's Choice .... to me that was akin to reading Red Sox tie Yankees in World Series with Sox winning 4 games to Yankees 2.

    The only original thought that ever occurred in Redmond was Microsoft Bob. They are always a step behind the competition in features and useability because until it exists they can't go to work copying it. By the time they copy it, the originator is onto something newer and better. That's not MS's disk compression technology in there, it's Stac's, that's not MS's defrag technology in there, it's Executive Software's, that's not MS's antispyware tool, it's Giant's. They competitive stategy is 1) try and steal it... 2) if that don't work buy it, .... 3) if they won't sell leverage them outta business by embedding or illegal contract restrictions with vendors.

    So the answer to why MS "embeds" rather than "includes" applications into the OS is NOT because consumers want them to, it's because they know people will replace them with better alternatives. Embedding and FUD with regard to "screwing up windows" keeps them right where they want them ... afraid to do anything else.
  16. #116  
    Jack, the point is that the user experience is decreased by not having an embedded firewall for examplel, or embedded defrag, or embedded browser. Computers are not cars. I think I have answered your question adequately. Obviously having these programs embedded has not stopped you from running your favorite third-party apps.

    Surur
  17. #117  
    I don't think the components need to be irremovable. Just included. Using the car example, you definitely need the car to come with tires but you should be able to switch to a different brand after you've bought the car. It's obvious that Jack is right that MS doesn't want some components removed because it serves their purposes. My only question is, who's purposes should MS be serving? I think they should serve their own purposes, after al they created the OS so why not reap the benefits? If this was a real issue with mainstream pc users then it would be alot easier for some other OS to get in the game. In the end, easy wins. I don't use Linux or Longhorn for that matter because of ease of use. Heck I don't even use the 64bit version of XP because of the trouble of hunting down drivers and apps and I'm not a PC newbie. I still like ease though.
  18. #118  
    How is the user experience decreased if it is installed and not embedded ? You keep saying "it is" but until you provide an explanantion or reasoning, the statement stands unsupported.

    "Well gee mom, I don't like that movie theater cause in the one I like they put butter on the popcorn but at this place they ask you if you want butter or not. They shouldn't ask you, just give it to you......."

    "but what about grandpa's cholesterol......"

    "more popcorn for me, mom, screw grandpa"

    Maybe MS or the government should decide what OS I buy, what parts I put in my puter and the list of programs I should buy so as to save me the stress of the decision making process ?

    IF MS is basing this decision on what's best for the consumer, how is the user experience increased or decreased by having accessibilty options as an option ? After all it's not embedded, however do people, especially handicapped people, manage to ever load / use windows ??? The people least capable of the extra effort have to go in and add this all by themselves. It's a wonder they ever manage to do so. Now if you were gonna autoload / embed something wouldn't this be the place to start ... of course not....no money in it.

    If you look at Add / Remove Windows Components, it still lists Internet Explorer and Outlook as things I can supposedly remove or add. Except that I can't really add/ remove anything just hide the icon. If it's not there or the noob simply can't find it, how is the noob's experience any different ? Yet I can remove handicapped useability enhancements. That makes no sense.

    If all the things you mention were not only listed under Add / Remove Windows Components but you could actually add or remove them, HOW is any experience decreased ?

    Set up the install as every other install and even Windows Update is:

    1. Express Install
    2. Custom Install

    It will state that new users should always use option 1. If I select 2, I can click on what I want to change from the default list. If I change my mind, accessing control panel / Add / Remove Windows Components lets me change it. Let me even save that list selection and script it for a office wide rollout....or as something I can e-mail to someone.

    Right now if I try and install something that needs new DirectX, .Net or messenger the install prompts me to install it via control panel, the install CD or download site....why not do the same for everything ? why the dichotomy ? If all the files are in the cab's on the hard disk, how is the user experience any different if a person has to:

    a) Click on a checkbox to put the icon back so they can access the program
    b) Click on a checkbox to put the icon and the files back so they can access the program

    The fact is it isn't....to the user, the process would be entirely transparent. So again, please don't tell me the user experience decreased and expect me to take the words as gospel, .... tell me how it is decreased so I can try and understand your reasoning.
  19. #119  
    Jack - I didn't read the whole post this time but I think we agree that components should be removable. As far as expecting the OS to come with options from other manufactures so you can select which you want to install, I don't think any CEO in this world would think that was a great idea. Let's give our competition all the help they need to run us out of business. So again, I think is only smart to include as much of their stuff as possible. I do think it would be better to be able to uninstall these components but I also see MS benefit for not allowing people to remove them. from MS standpoint it's a business decision to give them a competitve edge. We can debate about whether or not it's unethical but I think we can agree that it is effective.
  20. #120  
    BigT:

    No I agree....I don't expect MS to put those in....I don't think MS should stop say Dell or ayone else doing that tho.

    I don't think I'd be as upset with them if they just came out and said it.....all this baloney about it being what customers want. I could respect someone who said, "Hey we realize we ain't got a shot otherwise with this so we gonna do this"

    I think we would have been much better off with two Microsfts tho...one an OS company and one an apps company....maybe even a thrid "communications" oriented company chasing internet deals, telephony, DRM etc. I think it would have made them all more profitable in the long run.

    Right now the US market is saturated and like that shark species, if a company can't grow it can drown. With 3rd world and Asian countries outnumbering us by such a large margin, the global economy is gonna fight MS all the way. I think an OS company and an apps company would be better placed to survive a global economy.
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