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  1. #41  
    About as much time and effort Apple puts into Itunes? Its getting difficult to download Quicktime without it.

    Surur
  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    About as much time and effort Apple puts into Itunes? Its getting difficult to download Quicktime without it.
    I'm not sure you can separate the two...
  3. #43  
    Newbie computer users need things like media players pre-installed. For that matter pretty much every computer user wants as much pre-installed or bult-in as possible. Once we become pros then we find other apps that are superior that we are willing to spend money on.

    Just think how you would feel if you bought a $1,000 PC and brought it home to find out that you had to buy a media player just to listen to your cd. That you had to buy a web browser just to view the internet. Now I know you are going to say that those things are free from a lot of companies, but they are only free because that is the only way they can compete with Microsoft's free versions. If windows didn't come with these things then some other company would sell them to us.

    It's the same thing as our phones. People were very upset when they bought the Treo 300 to find no email app built-in. Even on the debut of the 600 there still wasn't a good solution yet. Snappermail didn't come along and say hey check out this great free app. They charged us for it and we paid gladly. Of course we still felt robbed by Palm. The same way we feel when we buy any app that is not provided that we feel should be.

    The answer is not to include less. The answer is to build hardware that can handle the load. Microsoft is on the software end. It's not there fault the hardware suppliers aren't building what we need to do the cool things they try to offer. The single reason why PCs are so popular now is becuase how far the applications and the GUI has come. Yeah it uses alot of resources but we have finally gotten to the point where you can buy the needed resources for a reasonable price. A gig of ram is like $50 now.

    Long story short give me more included apps and let me decide what I don't want to use or what I want to buy a better product to do. I mean this whether it's my PC or my mobile phone. Just please give me the hardware or the upgrade options to handle it.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    Just think how you would feel if you bought a $1,000 PC and brought it home to find out that you had to buy a media player just to listen to your cd. That you had to buy a web browser just to view the internet.
    Precisely. I mean, how would you be able to download Firefox onto your new computer if Microsoft didn't provide us the "Firefox Downloader" known as Internet Explorer?
  5. #45  
    Firefox would cost dollars if Internet explorer wasn't free either.
  6. #46  
    Maybe IE is free because Netscape was free. You dont see MS giving away Word, Excel or MS Money, do you?

    Surur
  7.    #47  
    You guys are completely missing the points-

    1. There is no OPTION to include or remove the included apps. They are embedded.

    2. IE and WMP are part of communication-ditribution mechanisms. That is why they are given away for free, as opposed to Excel. Why do you think IE wanted to win the war with Netscape? For posterity and ego?
  8. #48  
    1 - We wouldn't even care about remove apps if our phones came with more than enough resources to handle the added clutter. We wouldn't even notice it. The same way we don't notice all the Windowes XP bloat on a brand new high powered system.

    2 - I agree that is the reason IE was made free. I am simply saying that Netscape was planning on charging for that browser at some point. Once MS made IE free AND included in the OS that threw there plan. Now it has to remain free but the OS really would be incomplete without an included web browser anyway.

    I have used firefox occasionally but I don't like installing apps that are not needed. I didn't see a big enough difference to justify an additional app installed. I have even tried the new version of of IE with tabbed browsing but again tabbed browsing doesn't excite me enough to mess up a clean install. To me there is nothing that beats a clean install and loading only the apps you are actually going to use. I have a sepaprate computer that I "experiment" with new apps on.
  9.    #49  
    True - but I think the whole original issue was that the apps came preinstalled as opposed to an optional component you can install later. Few will take the time to remove and I guess I made part of that point backwards, that you can't remove it even if you wanted to and that is how integrated these "separate" apps are.

    By the time the court deals with the issue it's already moot.. pathetic really.
  10. #50  
    Netscape wasn't always free....I have been on line since early 1980's and nothing was free...and I have the receipts to prove it....even the packaging with the price stickers on it. And No, n00bs don't need apps preinstalled. During the OS install process, it could easily be set up so that a list of these options wa spresented and the user could put an x in the box for each thing it wants.

    System vendors could use install scripts to have you choose:

    Which Browser do you want installed:

    1. MS Internet Explorer (Free)
    2. Nestcape (Free)
    3. Mozilla (Free)
    4. Firefox (Free)
    5. Opera (Free 30 day Trial)

    This is unacceptable to MS because they know , if given a choice, their app will not be selected. So they build it into the OS so that:

    1. You don't have the choice.
    2. They can load half of the app at boot time to make the app not appear to be so sluggish compared to the competition.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    Precisely. I mean, how would you be able to download Firefox onto your new computer if Microsoft didn't provide us the "Firefox Downloader" known as Internet Explorer?
    1. I use the network cause all machines here were built here.....tho the 9 puters here might be unusual I don't know of a home with just one puter.....and if ya getting a "new" one, doesn't that kinda imply ya had an old one. I mean in this day and age, what % of new puter purchasers are buying their very 1st computer ? That old computer usually gets kept for use as a spare or at least print server duties.

    2. Same way I loaded Compuserve "back in the day". There was a CD in the box with my computer when UPS man brough it. You buy a vid card today, 3 free game CD's come in the box....same thing.

    3. You burn a CD with your old computer with all your apps , drivers etc for the machine that is en route on the FedEx truck while you wait.

    4. That magazine you bought at the newstand to pick out what puter ya were gonna buy had a CD in the packaging.

    5. You burn a CD at work.

    6. It came preinstalled on ya PC like McAfee 30 day trail, Compuserve, AOL, Prodigy, etc all did from 1994-1999 or so. Hard not to buy a PC from a major vendor w/o preinstalled apps.

    7. Ya Treo ... SD card into card reader.....or laptop

    8. Burn a CD at brother Joey's, Aunt Tillie's.

    9. USB Thingie.

    10. External Hard Drive
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Guess what Jack. When you buy a Symbian phone you also get Windows Media . Regarding the Windows without media player, I guess other people (out of 400 000 000 people in Europe) want that, because thats as many as were shipped in EU.
    1. Let's not confuse "shipped with" with "jammed down ya throat". The 650 ships with RP but **I have the option** to remove the piece of crap and replace it with P-Tunes do I not ?? I have no beef with MS if they let me remove their bloat. But since they know all this crap will be uninstalled within 45 days of the UPS man arriving with that new puter, the only option they have is to hard wire it into the OS. If they has faith in their product and thought they could stand up to the competition, they'd make it modular and removeable.

    2. Let's not confuse purchases with "available for purchase". I can't buy what I can't find or OEM vendors refuse to sell me or charge a premium for. Or let's go back to the choice MS gave us with Windows 3.1

    a) Purchade MS-DOS & Windows OEM price = $29.95
    b) Purchase Windows Only (MS-DOS not included) OEM price = $44.95 + whatever DR charges you for DR-DOS.

    Gee, not hard to figure which way price competitive OEM vendors went on that one.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    2. Same way I loaded Compuserve "back in the day". There was a CD in the box with my computer when UPS man brough it. You buy a vid card today, 3 free game CD's come in the box....same thing.
    If you truly loaded Compuserve back in "the day," then you simply logged onto it and began using its text interface. You were considered fancy when you downloaded Auto-CServe using YModem (or ZModem), compiled it yourself, and got to capture all that Compuserve goodness unattended. Same thing went for FidoNet and GEnie too. As I remember it, Prodigy was the first to come only in a box - that and AOL, back before it was a virus (but was already considered the trailer park of the internet).
  14. #54  
    I am a little younger than you guys I believe and I don't claim to be an old school computer genius. I got on the internet when AOL was first hitting the scene. I have learned to do alot of things that are important to me but there are many things I don't know how to do. In my circle I am a computer god but in most of your circles I would be kind of a novice. I know a ton of people who have never owned a computer and haven't really used others computers. I know people that don't even have an interest in learning to use a computer. I actually build computers and mostly sell them to people who are buying there first PC. The level of what people do not know is astounding. When you guys got into computers everything was new and and learning to do anything was a discovery process. These people are buying computers when there is already a whole world of options that can be quite confusing. I have people that call me to ask if they should get DSL, Cable, or Netzero Highspeed. They actual think Netzero highspeed is a form of broadband.

    So I will repeat. Truly new computer users need as much pre-installed software as possible. These are people that don't even know Internet Explorer let alone Opera or Firefox. If they were faced with a multiple choice menu they would just guess. To much of that experience can discourage a person from going any further. They would see it as just too confusing.
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    So I will repeat. Truly new computer users need as much pre-installed software as possible. These are people that don't even know Internet Explorer let alone Opera or Firefox. If they were faced with a multiple choice menu they would just guess. To much of that experience can discourage a person from going any further. They would see it as just too confusing.
    So essentially it would be a simpler world if all the choices for common applications just went away. Perhaps the company that provides the operating system should bundle all of its products along with the OS and the world would be an easier place to exist. We are getting close - anyone still know what WordPerfect is? Lotus 1-2-3? Any presentation software? Eudora?

    The real question is whose decision should it be to bundle these applications with the operating system? Monopolies can make the world a simpler place to exist. Just one gas company (some would already argue "collusion"), one long distance company, one utility company... ah, the ease of existence.

    Without competition, one company can simply define the market too and charge whatever they want, irrespective of the effort and quality. If people need something they'll either figure it out or ask someone who knows.
  16. #56  
    I don't remember MS Office being bundled with the OS. So... wordperfect just got beat. You can make an argument for email though. You started this line of debate by stating that MS is bad because of all of it's included bloat added to it's OS. Someone made an argument that one persons bloat is another persons functionality. I personally prefer as much functionality as possible. To me the solution is better hardware not less software. Since MS is not a hardware maker in general I hardly see where things like memory issues on the Treo 700 are there fault. I do feel that they have some improvements to make on there OS but at least they are releasing new versions of there OS. Palm OS would fare much better as an open source initiative at this point. Maybe I will eat my words when the new and improved version comes out but I don't think so. I think it's down hill for POS from here. I just hope that more developers get with the Windows Mobile program quickly. Remember I have been a Palm guy for about 8 years now. This is my first WM device. It has some positives and it has some negatives. But it has active development and the backing of the most competitive tech company in existance. It will be improved.
  17. #57  
    BTW, I wish there were some other interesting threads going so I could learn something or post on something helpful.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    1. I use the network cause all machines here were built here.....tho the 9 puters here might be unusual I don't know of a home with just one puter.....and if ya getting a "new" one, doesn't that kinda imply ya had an old one. I mean in this day and age, what % of new puter purchasers are buying their very 1st computer ? That old computer usually gets kept for use as a spare or at least print server duties.

    2. Same way I loaded Compuserve "back in the day". There was a CD in the box with my computer when UPS man brough it. You buy a vid card today, 3 free game CD's come in the box....same thing.

    3. You burn a CD with your old computer with all your apps , drivers etc for the machine that is en route on the FedEx truck while you wait.

    4. That magazine you bought at the newstand to pick out what puter ya were gonna buy had a CD in the packaging.

    5. You burn a CD at work.

    6. It came preinstalled on ya PC like McAfee 30 day trail, Compuserve, AOL, Prodigy, etc all did from 1994-1999 or so. Hard not to buy a PC from a major vendor w/o preinstalled apps.

    7. Ya Treo ... SD card into card reader.....or laptop

    8. Burn a CD at brother Joey's, Aunt Tillie's.

    9. USB Thingie.

    10. External Hard Drive
    I must say, Jack's world is pretty inconvenient. I was on the internet using gopher when all web pages had a grey background and blinking text. Netscape was always free for so called "academic use" which included 99% of people. I have paid for a few browsers through the years (NetCaptor, Opera) but I have never paid for Netscape.

    Jack's world is a lot like Linux installation is now. I prefer a world where I can reliably cut and paste between programs.

    Surur
  19. Cartman's Avatar
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    #59  
    I too think computers are way to complicated for the normal consumer.. somewhere it seems to have gotten worse in the last couple of years rather than better…..I don’t know how people get by...guess this is why all my independent consulting buddies are so busy... and they are just basic desktop support...they wont touch servers for the most part....and don’t need too seeing as how they are kept busy helping people set up their wireless networks and such....
  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo
    BTW, I wish there were some other interesting threads going so I could learn something or post on something helpful.
    You should read up on what has happened over the years in the technology arena. You'd also understand why it was impossible for companies to compete with MS because they wrote the OS and had certain advantages not available to competitors. We can't write the unabridged story here but suffice it to say that it amazes me that things can go on and be completely forgotten or overlooked by people within a few years. This wasn't just a case of "good old fashioned competition." I'd say that Jack's story is quite educational and probably of more value than an obscure registry hack that will impress nobody but a Treo owner with loads of time on his hands.
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