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  1.    #21  
    Lady - Looked again at TCPMP and missed a menu. Great stuff but crude instructions and operation. I think I will use it for audio because as much as I like PPlayer it keeps the lights on and also launches itself automatically sometimes. Some bugs.

    Weweil - unfortunately sometimes we don't have choices, thanks to carrier monopolies. I'm hoping that someone has figured out ways around how horrific WM can be despite years to look at Palm and copy the best stuff, even just the easy stuff.

    I appreciate Big Treo's remarks and hope that others can help. To those Palm owners drooling at the 700w but wondering about WM5 I hope to help set expectations. The articles in the Times about keypresses, etc. is such misleading BS. If anyone really uses the devices they'd know the strong and weak points. This displays some of the obvious weak points and if you really need them then the 700w may not be for you, despite a few improvements.
  2. #22  
    Have you tried GSPlayer? It allows you to control the backlight.
  3. #23  
    BTW, the problem with Windows Mobile, is that its written by Microsoft. The reason why their arrogant, inefficient, memory/CPU/resource hogging ways aren't as evident on your PC, is that they have about 3-10 times as much power/resources, as your little Treo 700w. The "glutton teen team" of developers that Microsoft stables to work on their products, assume that resources are infinite. Want proof? Why does it take nearly 1 GB of RAM, today, to have a home PC system that works effectively? Because Microsoft with their OS and Office suites, set the trend for using as much memory and CPU as possible, to enable features in their product that most people don't or won't even use. Again...this goes with the mentality that developers don't really NEED to understand what's going on, on the computer, they just need nifty GUI "wizards" to help them consume your system resources are record rates. Go ahead, ask on of these new Microsoft developers, if they actually understand WHAT happens when a program runs on an operating system, or even Windows, for that matter. They don't, therefore, why should they care how they consume your system resources?

    Regards,

    Big
  4. #24  
    Wow, that's one of the worst "cranky old fart" posts I've read in a long time. Cry me a river, old man.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by big_daddy_mpd
    BTW, the problem with Windows Mobile, is that its written by Microsoft. The reason why their arrogant, inefficient, memory/CPU/resource hogging ways aren't as evident on your PC, is that they have about 3-10 times as much power/resources, as your little Treo 700w. The "glutton teen team" of developers that Microsoft stables to work on their products, assume that resources are infinite. Want proof? Why does it take nearly 1 GB of RAM, today, to have a home PC system that works effectively? Because Microsoft with their OS and Office suites, set the trend for using as much memory and CPU as possible, to enable features in their product that most people don't or won't even use. Again...this goes with the mentality that developers don't really NEED to understand what's going on, on the computer, they just need nifty GUI "wizards" to help them consume your system resources are record rates. Go ahead, ask on of these new Microsoft developers, if they actually understand WHAT happens when a program runs on an operating system, or even Windows, for that matter. They don't, therefore, why should they care how they consume your system resources?

    Regards,

    Big
    I hope you enjoyed your rant. You do realize that if you dont need any of the features in newer software, you are free to use the older, more limited software and even hardware? If you likes DOS and WP 5.1, feel free to stick to it. Or do you need USB support for your USB memory stick? Now suddenly you need at least an windows 98 and all that bloat (which is features some-one else wanted, like DirectX for games). Then you complain that any software can lock up your box, and demand MS does something about. MS adds a more robust kernel and file system, which just happens to take more resources. And now we want multi-tabbed browsers, which tremendously increase the amount of memory we use on our system. But its OK, you dont want any of that.

    Feel free to use DOS. Or maybe not. You say you will use Linux, or MacOS. You will find the situation very similar there. Guess which OS just recently had to switch over to dual core multi-gigahertz processors because their shiny new OS was sluggish on their outdated processors.

    Anyway, I hope your ranting makes you feel better. It certainly has very little to do with reality.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 05/01/2006 at 04:49 AM.
  6. #26  
    Check Bold replies:

    Quote Originally Posted by treoshmeo
    I'm not a Palm hugger but am just frustrated by the folks in Redmond who seem to have their eyes on creating the coolest stuff and forgetting the basics that we deal with 90% of the time. Examples include:

    1) Many windows require use of the stylus to navigate and the 5 way button won't function, e.g. yes-no windows. WTF is up with that? Dont they make smartphones too? Edge - Palm by a mile. You can do one handed operations all day on a palm, navigation is smartphone like or with the touchscreen - your choice. WM - I have to whip out that stylus or attempt to press little boxes with my fingers all the time. There is no consistency and it can be maddening.

    You just didn't put any time into learning everything. 99% of the functions on the phone can be done without the stylus. Maybe spending some time with the phone will enable you to learn the phone.

    2) No easy way to time out the backlight on the keyboard. Have we still forgotten this one?

    Are you serious? This is a problem??? This is just your preference.

    3) Today screen is so useless without adding third party apps, e.g. I just want my appointments for the next 2-3 days in a small font on the today screen. Instead it's big by default and 2-3 appointments is all you get, for one day.

    Try making the system font smaller. Also, the screen is not a 15-inch display, so how many things can you possibly see on the page and screen? You want that many appointments to show on the screen, carry a laptop around.

    4) Serious memory leaks. It's somewhere. Quitting all apps still usually leaves me hovering around 5-8 MB. Reset gives me 11.5 MB. Why is this so horribly managed. Blame it on developers? All of them? Not a great system. Add in the issue of IE dumping stuff and the temp folder filling up causing other challenges like activesync. On a 700w it requires at least 1 reset a day.

    Maybe some of that third-party software you installed is causing it. I kept my third-party installations to a minimum necessity and have had no problems since the 1.10 update. Plus the temp folder with activesync is no longer there.

    5) Lets talk about AS. What a basic POS - and that is not Palm OS. Using Palm OS you can set all different kinds of sync options for each one. Did anyone in Washington look at Palm Sync?

    AS works fine. I think people's computers have a too much junk on them and that is where people have problems. I have installed AS on a work PC and all of my home computers and had zero problems.

    6) Slow. Even when it's fast it is slower than Palm OS and noticeably so. The Treo 700w doesn't help things and perhaps it is the problem if you intend to use third party apps.

    Not a Palm-hugger, huh? It took Palm 4 released revisions of the 650 firmware to get it right. So give this a chance. Only 1 released update of the firmware has been release since the 700w came out and people are trashing it before they know anything. People said the same thing when Windows XP first came out, now that SP2 is out there, no one has any issue with stability.


    7) Third party apps are MUCH better on Palm. Not sure if this is a reflection of a bad OS or just so many mediocre programs. Examples include

    email: Flexmail is so pathetic compared to snappermail it's not funny. Deleting one email with flexmail is a bad joke - who tested the operations?
    mp3 player: areoplayer is smooth, relatively bug free, sophisticated, 5 way works like it should, etc. Best I found is pocket player on wm. Looks coolish, not nearly as bug free and operational.
    office and e-readers: iSilo is OK on both but you'd think MS or someone else could do word and excel without screwing it up. I'd take docs to go in a second. The list goes on


    And this has what to do with the 700w. Hate the windows version of the apps, complain to the maker of the software.


    8) That stupid X vs OK close window that is inconsistent everywhere. Requires third party apps to manage.

    The OK button is meant to be a dismiss button. explained by MS in Webinar. No big thing once used to it.

    9) Multitasking aint everything it should be on the 700w, thats for sure. I would take the 650 and its ability to have speed and remember the status of every app you used and quit. Worked extremely well, including shortcuts. Speaking of shortcuts... WHY THE HECK aren't there keyboard equivalents of menu options?? You have to go through so many menus you'd think this would be something.

    Like the 650? Not a Palm-hugger? Just wait for the next Palm based Treo and stop stressin.

    These are just a few issues but they are incredibly frustrating. I honestly wish I could go back to Palm OS. If the new company puts out a Palm phone - not a Treo because Palm Inc will screw it up - I'd be there in a second. I just think Palm may have killed that platform and it's too bad.
  7.    #27  
    1. Say what? Many of the things we need to do can't be done one handed in Windows Mobile and, if so, it is as intuitive as... well... MS sets a whole new standard for inconsistent, absurd interface guidelines.
    - Press and hold OK key for memory info -- you tell me how to navigate, especially the tabs. How about any window with tabs?
    - How about deleting an email account? (stylus point, hold, click)
    These are but a few and the list goes on...

    2. What preference are you talking about regarding the keyboard? That the light stays on for too long a period and can't be set and that's what most of us want?

    3. The system font reduction doesn't help. The layout is not good and also there is an inability to have anything but today on the screen. Glad that it is what it is called but it's even more useless if it's 10pm and you want to see tomorrow, Happens every day.

    4. Memory leaks are there. It's a fact. They may get worse with apps but I only use a few, well known apps from experienced developers. It shouldn't be this bad and most of us have accepted that the cause is unknown.

    5. AS is fine? Now I know you're pulling our leg. It's brutally slow, invasive at times, unintuitive, and is still missing so many vital options it isn't funny.

    6. The Palm OS is not ony on the 650. Your point about XP is non-sequitir. I had a 650 and the overall usage of the Palm OS blows WM away unfortunately, from a pure usage standpoint. It's unfortunate. To me it feels like the folks in Redmind are only focused on how to add "cool stuff" instead of just focusing on basic usability. Point is made above regarding the inconsistent GUI and especially navigation. You'd think they get it right already...

    7. Perhaps true but why, after so long, are all these vital apps still woefully inadequate? Is WM5 programming more difficult? Maybe we get lost too much in drop down menus and press and hold, I don't know the answer to this one.

    Those are my thoughts. Frustrating. I thought that MS would make strides since my i600 Smartphone and it seems cooler but just as difficult to use...
  8. #28  
    I love the Microsoft defenders. You want features, then that eats up resources. Tired of having your resources eaten up? Then use an older, feature-less OS. Never mind making a product with features that WORKS without having to reboot one's system every day just to "refresh" the memory and release resources that get eaten up just because you used a "feature" for a second but never had the process release the resources back to the system when it was finished.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by rdstoll
    I love the Microsoft defenders. You want features, then that eats up resources. Tired of having your resources eaten up? Then use an older, feature-less OS. Never mind making a product with features that WORKS without having to reboot one's system every day just to "refresh" the memory and release resources that get eaten up just because you used a "feature" for a second but never had the process release the resources back to the system when it was finished.
    So when's the last time you rebooted your desktop, and why? I love my uptime.

    BTW, to delete an account without using the stylus on the HTC Universal, I simply navigate to the account under Menu>tools>options, select the account, press fn+space (which sends a right click) and I can select delete. And screens with tabs can of course be navigated with the arrow keys.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 05/01/2006 at 10:56 AM.
  10. WayCool's Avatar
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    #30  
    I think Shmeo makes some valid points... but I dont know anything about the palm OS at all.. but you could make some of the same arguements with respect to Blackberry devices.

    Luckily we dont use or support the Palm OS .. from a corporate standpoint email and calendaring are high priority and ONLY push is acceptable.

    The one big consideration is.. be it PC operating systems or mobile devices... if you write an OS that runs on proprietary hardware (i.e. hardware vendor writes the OS for the specific hardware).. you will most likely get VERY reliable results.. if you write an OS for commodity type hardware... well.. then YMMV !

    .02
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    So when's the last time you rebooted your desktop, and why? I love my uptime.

    BTW, to delete an account without using the stylus on the HTC Universal, I simply navigate to the account under Menu>tools>options, select the account, press fn+space (which sends a right click) and I can select delete. And screens with tabs can of course be navigated with the arrow keys.
    That's all you have to do to delete an account? LOL, seriously thanks. It is convoluted and requires numerous keypresses to say the least.

    Regarding the tabs, sometimes they work, others they don't. Most importantly, there are things that you just need the stylus for -- disconnecting from EVDO. Note, why is there no auto timeout, either in Outlook or in the 700w?

    I have also noticed MS putting redundant settings in several places. If you are in Outlook and choose "delivery preferences" in your account, you can turn off autoconnection to the Internet... right? Wrong. I have no idea what it's for. You also have to then go to menu, options, and go through the setup AND know you need to choose the advanced options tab to pull up the SAME delivery preferences screen which will show the connection as on.

    I hate to say it but this interface madness is rampant throughout Windows Mobile.

    Heres a REALLY good one. Use file explorer? That insanely confusing Windows Media Player? Why can't you use the 5 way button to scroll up to the drop down menu for the directory structure? You need to use the stylus. The option provided for one handed navigation is to LEAVE the 5 way key and navigate up one by one by clicking the left function button - why this is necessary I don't know. On Palm and any logical OS you simply scroll up to the dropdown menu item, click, and see the menu and scroll to select. Sometimes it's like that in WM5 apps but WHY is this not consistent already. How many years have they been developing this POS? Did they not look at POS (love the double entendre.) This is what irks me...
  12. #32  
    If you hold down the "end call" button, doesn't it disconnect it from EVDO? It sounds to me as if you are just inexperienced.

    Surur
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If you hold down the "end call" button, doesn't it disconnect it from EVDO? It sounds to me as if you are just inexperienced.
    No. If you momentarily push the end call button (while not in a call) it places the Treo in sleep mode. If you press and hold the end call button, it puts the Treo into flight mode (phone radio off). Does yours do something else?
  14. #34  
    (Un)fortunately Ive got a HTC Universal, which disconnects from GPRS/UMTS when you hold down the end call button. This has been a standard feature of most HTC phones (which the Treo 700w is). The flight-mode action seems less useful to me. Maybe the standard behavior can be enabled via a registry hack? It also indicated you should attribute problems to the right people e.g. Palm vs MS.

    Surur
  15. #35  
    Ahh - got it, surur. I agree, the behavior you describe (end button killing data connection) is common in other PPC phones - for example it was present on my HTC-built XV6600 and Samsung i730. For some reason Palm chose to make the End key the on/off switch (standby/resume) in a manner quite different from other PPC phones. I wonder if HTC pointed that out to Palm?
    Last edited by Kupe; 05/02/2006 at 05:50 AM.
  16. #36  
    One has to recognize is that as far as growth is concerened, MS is dead, it can't grow without stepping into other markets. How many more people are left to sell an OS to when you have 90% of the market ? It will try and use its monopoly position to gain access to these markets. For example, MS wants to control DRM so it can charge record companies a penny a song that you download, to do that it has to be the dominant player in the desktop, laptop, palmtop. So, unless you are lucky enough to live in UK where you can get a WM-less Windows, you are gonna be stuck with WM. So by the time they stuff WM in there, stuff IE in there, stuff all their "other market" stuff in there....and preload much of it so it "appears" to load fast, a good portion of ya memory gonna be gone.

    Can't quite understand why there is an option to install / uninstall accessibility options for the handicapped but no choice whetehr to install WM / IE / Outlook, etc.

    MS has also learned that's it's not how you feel 6 months down the road about your purchase it's about how cool it looks on the display stand in the store. It's all about the OOBE.
  17. #37  
    Guess what Jack. When you buy a Symbian phone you also get Windows Media . Regarding the Windows without media player, I guess you and 1,787 other people (out of 400 000 000 people in Europe) want that, because thats as many as were shipped in EU. Very popular product, isn't it.

    I think you need to differentiate between satisfying demand and adding bloat. Just because you dont want it does not mean most others dont.

    Surur
  18.    #38  
    Jack is unfortunately correct. Anyone remember Netscape? MS is hoping to do exactly what is described regarding DRM and nothing beats embedding your own tools into the OS to deal with it... that's why you can't uninstall these applications. Long ago the argument was made "it's no longer an application but a necessary component of the operating system." After a while it becomes so "convenient" to users that's what they choose...
  19. #39  
    So MS should be the only OS that ships without a media player?

    Surur
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    So MS should be the only OS that ships without a media player?
    Shipping with one that can be installed is one thing. Having one always installed because it is now an inseparable part of the operating system is another. It is also interesting to note how much time and effort was placed into developing that "add-on" and Jack's note about DRM is right on target.
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