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  1. ksoliz's Avatar
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       #1  
    Then it would truly be awesome! I know I know how many times are we gonna talk about memory...

    It really is a shame Palm couldnt find a way to get more RAM in this thing. Having used both the 6700 and Treo 700w from Verizon I can tell you the overall experience with more RAM on the 6700 was pretty awesome. I just really couldnt stand the size and form factor of the 6700, the Treo win hands down in that regard. Also the phone capabilities of the Treo 700 blow away the 6700 in my opinion.

    Anyways... I just setup direct push with exchange 2003 SP2 (admin of a SBS 2003 server with exchange) and so far so good. Im very impressed with how fast it is, almost instant (Blackberry better watchout). I'll be paying very close attention to memory issues and battery life. I have been lurking around here for a while and have noticed a lot of posts about battery and memory issues with direct push enabled and updated 1.10 700w's. For me the update went find, absolutly no problems. I did apply the update to a naked treo (hard reset default settings). I'll post back with my findings for memory and battery issues at the end of the day.

    At the start of the day (6am) I was at 12.34MB with ActiveSync and Outlook running. Currently at 8:30am I'm at 11.55MB
  2. #2  
    If you're worried about battery life, then be glad for the 32MB of RAM; that's the main reason it has 32 instead of 64 (more RAM = more power consumption)
  3. #3  
    In retrospect, I would have taken a hit on battery life for more memory. Wouldn't you agree?

    You could always buy a 2400mAh battery to compensate, but not many would be willing to crack open their 700w's, void their warranty...
  4. ksoliz's Avatar
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       #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by racekarl
    If you're worried about battery life, then be glad for the 32MB of RAM; that's the main reason it has 32 instead of 64 (more RAM = more power consumption)
    Is that an official reason why there is only 32MB of RAM, or is that educated/uneducated speculation?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondtheTech
    In retrospect, I would have taken a hit on battery life for more memory. Wouldn't you agree?

    You could always buy a 2400mAh battery to compensate, but not many would be willing to crack open their 700w's, void their warranty...
    Yup I would have been more then happy to take a hit on battery for more RAM. When you take a hard look at the experiences with more RAM on the device like the 6700 and how that would translate to the 700w. It would have made the 700w a way better device.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by racekarl
    If you're worried about battery life, then be glad for the 32MB of RAM; that's the main reason it has 32 instead of 64 (more RAM = more power consumption)
    Your battery is being drilled because there is only 32MB of RAM instead of 64. Every time you open and close and app - which is FAR more frequent with 32MB of RAM than 64MB - you are requiring the phone to work far harder. Thus with 64MB of RAM you probably would have had BETTER battery life then you are experiencing now.

    Given the availability and cost of 64 MB chips AND Microsoft's recommendation of 64MB of RAM for Windows Mobile 5, coupled with Palm's previous skimping on RAM, means that the only logical answer to your question is that the 32MB of RAM choice was well known to Palm. It was not a mistake but rather one that points to bottom line and/or huge inventory of 32MB chips and/or ability to stick you with needing to upgrade in a few months. There is no other reasonable explanation that comes to mind or that I've heard yet.
  6. #6  
    I keep reading about this shortage of RAM memory, but mine reads 62.95MB of total storage and 25.45MB of Program storage. I'm not sure if the update may have manipulated it or something? Well let me know, if i'm reading something wrong.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoshmeo
    Your battery is being drilled because there is only 32MB of RAM instead of 64. Every time you open and close and app - which is FAR more frequent with 32MB of RAM than 64MB - you are requiring the phone to work far harder. Thus with 64MB of RAM you probably would have had BETTER battery life then you are experiencing now.
    I'm not sure I agree...

    The Treo can XIP the OS from ROM, so its need to load and unload programs from memory is reduced compared to other devices that use cheaper ROM.

    Also, RAM power usage scales linearly with the amount, so 64 MB of RAM uses twice the power of 32MB. (ROM power usage is constant, so you can load up as much as you want)

    Here's the important part: RAM uses power all the time, even when the device is in standby mode, so even when your device is "off" and it doesn't matter how many programs are loaded, 64MB would eat twice as much power.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by racekarl
    I'm not sure I agree...

    The Treo can XIP the OS from ROM, so its need to load and unload programs from memory is reduced compared to other devices that use cheaper ROM.

    Also, RAM power usage scales linearly with the amount, so 64 MB of RAM uses twice the power of 32MB. (ROM power usage is constant, so you can load up as much as you want)

    Here's the important part: RAM uses power all the time, even when the device is in standby mode, so even when your device is "off" and it doesn't matter how many programs are loaded, 64MB would eat twice as much power.
    We are comparing performance of a chip of the same quality of 32MB and 64MB of RAM. In addition, the performance hit of getting the CPU involved on a regular basis should easily outweigh the issue of having the available RAM sitting there. At best it would seem a wash.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by racekarl
    I'm not sure I agree...
    Then prepare to agree.
    The Treo can XIP the OS from ROM, so its need to load and unload programs from memory is reduced compared to other devices that use cheaper ROM.
    Incorrect. The Treo loads a program from ROM into RAM to execute. There was a conscious decision by MS to NOT do XIP in WM5.0.
    Also, RAM power usage scales linearly with the amount, so 64 MB of RAM uses twice the power of 32MB. (ROM power usage is constant, so you can load up as much as you want)
    Ingenious. So 2 x almost no power consumption = almost no power consumption. RAM power requirements are negligible compared to phone radio, BT radio, backlight, and CPU usage.
    Here's the important part: RAM uses power all the time, even when the device is in standby mode, so even when your device is "off" and it doesn't matter how many programs are loaded, 64MB would eat twice as much power.
    Just like the much more power hungry Phone, BT radio, and CPU which is still checking to see if your appointment alarm is due now or if that new email just showed up. The power drain increase from 32 to 64 mb is twice time bupkus.
  10. #10  
    Why do some continue to push this crazy marketing spin?

    Here's an article of an iPaq hx4700, whose battery life apparently improved after being upgraded from 64MB to 128MB.

    http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/review/...service_review
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  11. #11  
    Man, if this thing only had more RAM...

    man, if there was peace in the world...

    be happy or be sad, it's your choice.
  12. #12  
    I got one thing to say, 640k should be more then enough memory for anyone =]
  13. jbee21's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by racekarl
    I'm not sure I agree...

    The Treo can XIP the OS from ROM, so its need to load and unload programs from memory is reduced compared to other devices that use cheaper ROM.

    Also, RAM power usage scales linearly with the amount, so 64 MB of RAM uses twice the power of 32MB. (ROM power usage is constant, so you can load up as much as you want)

    Here's the important part: RAM uses power all the time, even when the device is in standby mode, so even when your device is "off" and it doesn't matter how many programs are loaded, 64MB would eat twice as much power.

    this is true but you make it sound worse then what it really would be...it would use twice as much RAM power. not twice as much general power. other things affect power worse then ram does. so in result youd see worse battery life but nothing you couldnt live with. and nothing a extended battery couldnt take care of.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    Incorrect. The Treo loads a program from ROM into RAM to execute. There was a conscious decision by MS to NOT do XIP in WM5.0.
    Are you sure about that? It seems at variance with the info in this WM team blog entry from Mike Calligaro:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/...19/453784.aspx

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Calligaro
    There's nothing an app needs to do differently to XIP or not. It's transparent. Our same code runs XIP or not without any changes from us. The OEM decides at ROM creation time which way to go.

    That said, there's no way for an ISV app to XIP. To XIP you need to be in the base image of the device. If you're installed later, you go into the file system, and we don't XIP from the filesystem. (We didn't even XIP from the RAM based filesystem pre-WM5.)

    So, whether you're running from the internal filesystem or from a NAND-based storage card, your code will be loaded into RAM.
    Either I'm misunderstanding or this says that XIP works in WM5 but only for stuff in the OEM ROM, not for third-party apps.

    Some 700W specific info from the same source, answering the question 'would you recommend the device rom be on nor or nand?':

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Calligaro
    It's hard to make a straight recommendation. NAND has some advantages over NOR, but NOR has other advantages over NAND. NOR is much better to execute code from, and NAND is much better to store data in. The ideal is to have the system code stored in NOR and the user data stored in NAND. That, by the way, is what the Treo 700w did.
    http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/....aspx#comments
  15. #15  
    Who gives a damn? If you only have 10-13MB of RAM available with just a small number of startup items then you don't have enough RAM to run apps that are being built that have large footprints, e.g. web browsers, games, etc. The Treo 700w is the only RAM crippled device on the market. Developers will continue to go with the ways of the world, over 90% of which have 64MB of RAM. Period. End of story. There is nothing good about Palm's decision to use 32MB of RAM in the Treo 700w any more than there was to do the same in the Treo 650. It was based upon Palm's desire to get more profit out of consumers and compel them to buy more Treos they don't need. It's the way many businesses work and Palm's marketing misdeeds with the 700w RAMs the point home if you're still a naive, Palm-loving hippie who won't accept the hard facts. If you're a former 650 owner you've already accepted the fact that Palm has sodomized you once and now have a better appreciation for who and what Palm's philosophy is. Let's move on kids, nothing to see here but carnage...
  16. #16  
    treoshmeo, was that a response to my post? If so you seem to be under some sort of misapprehension. I was debating the point with Kupe that WM5 couldn't XIP and posted two quotes from a source I'd regard as reliable indicating 1) that it can, and 2) the Treo does. It wasn't intended as a justification of Palm's decision to use 32 MB of RAM (which is an issue I didn't address at all).
  17. ksoliz's Avatar
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       #17  
    Well I'm very pleased with the performance of the device yesterday. At the end of the day with direct push freshly enabled I averaged around 10MB free throughout the day. Also I noticed no huge impact on battery preformance. I mess around with the phone almost all day and started the day with around 40% battery at 6am, at 12am the battery died (today Im starting with a full charge)
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by ksoliz
    Well I'm very pleased with the performance of the device yesterday. At the end of the day with direct push freshly enabled I averaged around 10MB free throughout the day. Also I noticed no huge impact on battery preformance. I mess around with the phone almost all day and started the day with around 40% battery at 6am, at 12am the battery died (today Im starting with a full charge)
    marcol - it was a comment to deal with the prior and current ones like these that can be very misleading. We're talking about more and more heavy lifting and it makes me laugh, like some other great comments, that if we had 640KB of RAM then the batter would last even longer! Yahoooo!

    I feel a little frustrated I guess. Sorry. I just can't stand reading many other posts by Treo 700w owners trying so hard to rationalize why Palm is really comprised of a bunch of good guys who only had everyone's best interests in mind. Really nothing good about this decision and I doubt anyone would have complained about the battery life if there was 64MB of RAM. I'd take that bet in a second. And if PPCTechs ever can crack this ******* we'll be able to see real benchmarks.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol
    Are you sure about that? It seems at variance with the info in this WM team blog entry from Mike Calligaro:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/...19/453784.aspx



    Either I'm misunderstanding or this says that XIP works in WM5 but only for stuff in the OEM ROM, not for third-party apps.
    The key phrase in the blog is:
    Since it would XIP all of the programs, it wouldn't need 64M of RAM and would drop back down to 32M, thus saving power. XIPing also means faster application load times, since you don't have to load the program into RAM before running it. A device like that would rock.
    "Would rock." As in coulda-shoulda. If the Treo was using NOR ROM with XIP, then you wouldn't see memory stats like:

    Total: 24.45 MB
    In use: 18.11
    Free: 7.34

    The "In use" number would be much lower.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    "Would rock." As in coulda-shoulda. If the Treo was using NOR ROM with XIP, then you wouldn't see memory stats like:

    Total: 24.45 MB
    In use: 18.11
    Free: 7.34

    The "In use" number would be much lower.
    Kupe, that argument makes sense to me but does seem contradict what Mike Calligaro said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Calligaro
    It's hard to make a straight recommendation. NAND has some advantages over NOR, but NOR has other advantages over NAND. NOR is much better to execute code from, and NAND is much better to store data in. The ideal is to have the system code stored in NOR and the user data stored in NAND. That, by the way, is what the Treo 700w did.
    I don't have a Treo 700 (wouldn't be a lot of use the UK!) or any WM5 device so please forgive this ignorant question, but is that 18 of 24 usage figure for a clean device (soft reset and no third party apps)? It does seem terribly high if that's the case and I guess (with my very limitted knowledge) that it would argue against XIPing

    I don't suppose there's any info directly from Palm memory architecture of the 700?
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