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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by andrebsd
    It's not a time issue... it's a money issue. No company in the world has unlimited funds, so it's going to either programers or lawyers.
    Your quote:
    "I'd much rather have a company spend their time innovating, rather than having to deal with lawsuits. "

    You made it about time, not me. ...and those types of dollars are inconsequential. In house counsel has to be there for a myriad of other issues. They are already there.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    You apologists are amazing. This is a major functional flaw with the phone that should have been addressed. This has nothing to do with my "testing," and those that think it does, it only shows your absolute ignorance of the law. The burden here is on Verizon, not on my abilities as a tester.
    What experience or training do you have that makes you qualified to make that statement? I AM a lawyer and I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about or getting into. Litigation sucks. Though class-action suits CAN serve a societal purpose, this one isn't going to. It is going to waste the court's time, the jury's time (if you get lucky and get that far), and your time. In the end...maybe you'll get out of your contract...maybe you'll get a $10 credit on your next bill. I don't know how much you think your time is worth, but I can assure you that if you can find a lawyer to take your case (good luck with that), you are going to spend a ton of time and in the end only make more of a fool out of yourself than you already have. The jury (again, assuming you get that far) is going to be livid about you wasting their time, and all of us Verizon users are going to sit here happy that the money we pay them goes to their lawyers rather than to more technicians or infrastructure. Let us know when you've signed up that lawyer.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    You are correct on the car and phone being on different parallels. The autombile industry does not give you 2 weeks to try the product to decide if it meets your expectations.
    What WM5 device are you comparing with the 700 that allows you to draw the conclusions? If this was a simple cell phone, sure make those comparisons and it might hold water.
    if you want to use the auto example, if someone bought a car that only worked on the gas near his house without being informed that he would have to take steps that most would deem unreasonable, say opening the hood and pulling a lever to get the gas cap to open, so that he could fill his tank outside of his special home gas, when all other cars only require the user to pull a single lever, then we are talking similar examples.

    As I have stated, this is my first experience with WM5, and overall I am very satisfied. That said, I am comparing only the phone aspect. It is rediculous that the network memory is not retained, whether it's WM5, garnet, or just an LG. This has nothing to do with WM5. THis has to do with the fact the Verizon sold a phone with whatever OS that doesn't maintain the most basic setting in regard to the network.
  4. cardio's Avatar
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    if you want to use the auto example, if someone bought a car that only worked on the gas near his house without being informed that he would have to take steps that most would deem unreasonable, say opening the hood and pulling a lever to get the gas cap to open, so that he could fill his tank outside of his special home gas, when all other cars only require the user to pull a single lever, then we are talking similar examples.

    As I have stated, this is my first experience with WM5, and overall I am very satisfied. That said, I am comparing only the phone aspect. It is rediculous that the network memory is not retained, whether it's WM5, garnet, or just an LG. This has nothing to do with WM5. THis has to do with the fact the Verizon sold a phone with whatever OS that doesn't maintain the most basic setting in regard to the network.
    No, I am comparing a purchase without adequate testing. You should have utilized the two week window to your advantage. If it does not meet your needs return it. If you waited too long, sucks for you.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by ntaylor
    What experience or training do you have that makes you qualified to make that statement? I AM a lawyer and I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about or getting into. Litigation sucks. Though class-action suits CAN serve a societal purpose, this one isn't going to. It is going to waste the court's time, the jury's time (if you get lucky and get that far), and your time. In the end...maybe you'll get out of your contract...maybe you'll get a $10 credit on your next bill. I don't know how much you think your time is worth, but I can assure you that if you can find a lawyer to take your case (good luck with that), you are going to spend a ton of time and in the end only make more of a fool out of yourself than you already have. The jury (again, assuming you get that far) is going to be livid about you wasting their time, and all of us Verizon users are going to sit here happy that the money we pay them goes to their lawyers rather than to more technicians or infrastructure. Let us know when you've signed up that lawyer.
    As I said, I am not interested taking this to court at all. For an atty you don't seem very detail oriented or you would have read that. I am merely stating that I have standing for an action against Verizon. IMO, it's not frivolous. FWIW, while I didn't go to law school everyone in my family is a litigator and/or prosecutor and I'm extremely familiar with the concepts we're talking about. I would never resort to litigation for something like this. This post(s) are about the fact that Verizon is in the wrong here, not me.

    Everyone seems to be stuck on the fact that I didn't "do my homework." Expecting a cell phone to work at a basic level like roaming shouldn't require testing at present. If Verizon offers the phone a RPP can safely presume that the phone will roam and work on the map verizon offers without constant tinkering. If you reset this phone it or turn it off it won't do that in my area if you don't change the settings on the phone. No phones require this.

    Re my statement that you quoted: I don't need to be an expert in WM5 to know that any reasonable and prudent person that has used any cell phone in the last ten years expects the phone to maintain its network and roam without having to Find a single phone where the setting isn't retained and or needs to be redone after any power off or reset for the phone to roam. This technical issue was not made apparent by Verizon when I signed the contract and purchased the phone. My standing is that verizon and I had a meeting of the minds, I had normal reasonable expectations which Verizon has not met. My harm is that I have lost nearly 15 hours of my billable time while dealing with this issue.
    Last edited by littlewaywelt; 03/28/2006 at 01:24 PM.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    You made it about time, not me. ...and those types of dollars are inconsequential. In house counsel has to be there for a myriad of other issues. They are already there.
    Further revealing your ignorance of how the legal system works. Ordinarily no big deal, too many lawyers in this world anyway, but then be careful trying to sound like you know what you're talking about. Companies don't use in-house counsel to actually defend litigation. In-house counsel hires outside counsel. Expensive. Does the company really care that much? No. But it adds up and we all pay for it.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    As I said, I am not interested taking this to court at all. For an atty you don't seem very detail oriented or you would have read that.
    I apologize. I had mistakenly thought you started the thread, then looked back at it just now. Still, we're both wasting our billable time on this debate. So you're unhappy. That sucks. I'm ticked off that the direct push update isn't out yet, I'm ticked about the memory, etc. But I still love the phone. I knew I'd be gambling as an early adopter and on balance I'll live with it.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    Your quote:
    "I'd much rather have a company spend their time innovating, rather than having to deal with lawsuits. "

    You made it about time, not me. ...and those types of dollars are inconsequential. In house counsel has to be there for a myriad of other issues. They are already there.
    If you ever become a lawyer... I'll hire you.

    Yeah, I forgot to type "time & money", not very awake when I wrote that, lol.

    But yeah with Palm it wouldn't mater much, unless they get less lawsuits and make their in house system smaller. That would save some money; if they got rid of some things surely they could pay, at least, one good programmer. You could also do like Google with the extra money from having less in house legal and make your people happy. Free food & drinks keep your geeks happy and working their best. It only takes one persons good idea to make a successful product in the end.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by ntaylor
    Further revealing your ignorance of how the legal system works. Ordinarily no big deal, too many lawyers in this world anyway, but then be careful trying to sound like you know what you're talking about. Companies don't use in-house counsel to actually defend litigation. In-house counsel hires outside counsel. Expensive. Does the company really care that much? No. But it adds up and we all pay for it.
    Companies like Verizon in addition to having in house counsel have firms that handle these issues. I did not indicate nor did I mean to indicate that in house counsel deals with all legal issues.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by ntaylor
    I apologize. I had mistakenly thought you started the thread, then looked back at it just now. Still, we're both wasting our billable time on this debate. So you're unhappy. That sucks. I'm ticked off that the direct push update isn't out yet, I'm ticked about the memory, etc. But I still love the phone. I knew I'd be gambling as an early adopter and on balance I'll live with it.
    I didn't start thread, and I also stated in a post that I wasn't interested in legal action. For this type of issue...you'd have to be kidding me. There's a big difference between arguing that someone has standing and taking legal action. I only take issue that this some posters seem to indicate that this is somehow my fault for not figuring out what I suspect few did/have. I have never before taken part in these types of time wasting threads here, and I'm unlikely to in the future. Life is too short and in the end this is only a phone. Who really cares?

    I am not unhappy. I am irritated about this flaw. There is difference. Does it keep me awake at night? Hardly. Overall, I love the phone.
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    If your cable went out for a week, should you pay the full month's bill or 3/4?
    I shouldn't expect to pay the full month, but I wouldn't sue them to accomplish that.
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    I didn't leave the dc area during the two week trial period. And I'll make my point yet again....I'd be willing to bet that no one tested for this when they adopted the phone. Seriously...everyone assumes that a phone will roam properly and that when it's shut off it retains the network settings. The 700 doesn't do this, it always reverts to the home setting after it has been turned off/flight mode, or soft reset. The tech I spoke with yesterday was amazed at this. This is clearly someone's oversight. There's no logical reason for the phone to act this way and it's going to result in a lot of irritated customers.

    The legal fees encountered by the respondent are their responsibility whether they have a team of one or fifty. The fees encountered by the class would normally be added to the damages, so that doesn't come out of the pocket of the class.

    Do I want to sue over this? No. But there is definitely standing for it. I've been a verizon/bell atlantic mobile customer since 1985 and I can remember when roaming was a lot more complicated than the 700 is. Anyone remember the advent of "Follow Me Roaming"? *18

    To the person above, I've been using palms since they were first introduced, pdas long before that and probably had a mobile phone a lot longer than you (1985) and when they were a thousand bucks and took up two milkcrates twenty years ago.
    I'm a noob to WM5 and the treo, but that's about it.


    You apologists are amazing. This is a major functional flaw with the phone that should have been addressed. This has nothing to do with my "testing," and those that think it does, it only shows your absolute ignorance of the law. The burden here is on Verizon, not on my abilities as a tester.
    Spoken like a true lawyer!
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by olympus1
    so I guess the fact that when I get call waiting I get charged for both calls because this phone is too stupid to hang up on the first one or when I hit ignore it hangs up on both calls; is caused by a third party app? This lawsuit is not about money people- it's about standing up for your rights as a consumer when a company puts a product out to market before testing it. Caller ID has been around for quite a while- you are going to sit here and tell me we should need a patch to fix it?
    That's been a well known wy athat Treo's (even the 650) work on the VZW network. While I wuld prefer it to be different it's not VZW's fault or respeonsibility.
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by gex
    What's funny is that this is by far the best Windows Mobile Phone Edition device released to date!!!

    I take it a lot of you haven't used some of the previous or competitor Windows Mobile products....they really suck when it comes to using them as a phone... sure they work but are far more difficult to use and have many, many phone usability issues.

    The 700w was a godsend when it comes to phone functionality! I will testify in court to this regard as an expert witness
    I agree it is a great Pocket PC and maybe the best in class. However the I-Mate SP5 is head and shoulders better as a phone and for basic email triage. Plus it is smaller. And now that I have AKU2.0 installed on it, Direct Push really, and I mean really, rocks!
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    #55  
    I was having reception issues with my first Treo 700w and it seemed to be a defective unit. Before I went back to the store and exchanged it, I called tech. support and I specifically asked about the "system" or "network" the phone is using. The tech. rep. told me that the old A and B sides as they were once known stems from the old days of AMPS where you had an A and B carrier in each market. You would have to change from A to B if you went to a different market possibly because Verizon is the A side in Chicago and the Verizon happens to be the B side in Las Vegas. In the PCS spectrum, there are something like 6 or 8 markets A through F or H. The tech. rep. told me that since around 2001 or whenever that was, Verizon switched to the PRL or preferred roaming list technology and basically made this functionality obsolete. After he told me this, I tested it by putting my phone in A and B sides and it made no difference whatsoever in my reception or anything.

    So, I'm really puzzled by littlewaywelt's problem that he keeps alluding to. I think maybe there is something else wrong with your phone because if what the tech. told me is true, you should never need to set the A or B side on your phone because it pays no attention to that setting anyway. It instead uses the PRL to determine what side of the market Verizon is on in your particular area and to find the Verizon towers.

    Please elaborate on your issue because I'm now curious if this is what you are talking about.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by swagner
    There are lots of people who are very happy with their 700w. Call verizon and see if they will let you get a different phone. It is lawsuits like the one you are talking about that make introducing new products so risky for companies that many of them stop innovating. The consumer and the company both lose and the lawyers make all the money. Palm's legal bills only make our phones more expensive and discourage palm from implementing new features. You getting a discount on your next phone or a free 128mb sd card or even all of your money back will do the overall consumer no good. I say trade it in or sell it and get a different phone if you are unhappy.

    Seriously, I don't think this is the reason Palm won't implement new features.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by HalM
    I agree it is a great Pocket PC and maybe the best in class. However the I-Mate SP5 is head and shoulders better as a phone and for basic email triage. Plus it is smaller. And now that I have AKU2.0 installed on it, Direct Push really, and I mean really, rocks!
    I completely agree but I was only talking about Windows Mobile PocketPC Phone Editions... not Smartphone Edition

    Smartphone Editions generally rock as phones but you lose a few built in PocketPC features such as touch screen, Mobile Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and Terminal Services Client.
  18. #58  
    I paid $500 for a phone without problems. Well, so far, verizon send me 3 brand new Treos 700w, yes 3 brand new phones, and even the current phone is a piece of crap, I spend about 15 hours in the phone with Verizon Data Tech Support, Palm Tech Support, this ****ing phone have so many issues, I can't believe it, how they can put in the market such a bad unit, Palm told me "Yes the phone has Bugs", Verizon, they don't even have a clue how the phone works, then onlye thing they told me is do a soft reset or hard reset.
    We should do a lawsuit to Verizon, Palm and Microsoft for this piece of crap phone.
    Problems:
    The phone freeze continuesly, miss phone calls, doesn't hangup phone calls and I getting charge for 2 phone calls. The phone some times doesn't see the SD cards, storage or wifi sd card, I need to soft reset the piece of cr... in order to use my WIFI card..... What else, let me think, problems with Active Sync, cprog.exe error report "Send report to Microsoft....", sometimes when I receive phone calls and press send the phone freeze (soft reset required).
    What we can do with this phone, Verizon and Palm ??????????????
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    #59  
    Dude, just return the phone or sell it and move on...

    I'm sure VZW would be happy to exchange it for a 6700...Geeeesh give it a rest. I doesn’t work for you.. accept it and move on.

    Best way to get back at a manufacture is to not buy their products... if their products really are that bad it will be reflected in their sales and the company will have to change or fail.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by ntaylor
    I knew I'd be gambling as an early adopter and on balance I'll live with it.
    And the nail is struck soundly on the head. Argument over.

    This is the life of early adopters.

    Let me go off topic to another arena momentarily.

    I own a HD Tivo that I purchased for $1000 the day they released. Directv is now replacing it with a model that i do not like that is not a tivo. It is also a leased not an owned box.

    Am I PO'd about that? Sure am, is a lawsuit the answer? no. I rolled the dice and lost. If i waited 6 months to a year I could have gotten the same machine for $199.00.

    Fact is you buy a product as soon as it comes out, you are going to have to work through the growing pains. There are some bugs in this phone that suck, but overall it rocks tough.
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