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  1. swagner's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    The principle is the same. Allowing a company to "rip" some people off isn't acceptable. If you haven't been harmed and don't have standing you don't have to become part of the class. You also don't need to take issue with those that do. If you spent $400 for a phone that barely worked or wouldn't work as contractually promissed, and the phone company isn't willing to do anything, then you'd be willing to keep a $400 paperweight?

    .........

    We are talking about being compensated for financial loss. No one is trying to get rich in these types of lawsuits. ...and the firms have every right to take a large percentage. They take all the risk and spend all their own money up front because I can't afford to sue a fortune 500 company on my own. The class actually saves everyone money and the court time because it consolidates effort and resources.
    I don't think any of us are saying a company should be allowed to rip you off. The phone does everything it is advertised to do. Just because it may be complicated does not make the company at fault (it just makes the product poor). This is not a paperweight we are talking about, it's just tough to use. Should I sue the makers of juggling balls because I can't juggle? It is attitudes like this that want to hold gunmakers responsible for crimes committed with guns, carmakers responsible for injuries because their cars can go too fast, and toilet paper makers responsible because you got a rash on your bum!

    These suits do not save everyone money. They save the lawyers and the courts money. That is why the lawyers turned politicians allow many of these insane suits to continue. Don't be so naive as to think no one gets involved in these suits for the money. They cost corporations billions, hurt innovation and once in a while get a few people a few bucks who got screwed.

    Don't get me wrong, pharmacuetical companies hiding data, anything INTENTIONALLY hiding potential danger from the consumer or outright negligent in ripping them off deserves punishment. A phone with buggy and complicated software? Sorry, but no.
  2. #22  
    There are legitimate faults with the phone. There were legitimate faults with the 650 when it came out. But we found the 650's faults getting better as each carrier released their version. As Palm had a chance to "beta" the phone Cingular and Verizon wound up with better phones. Most of those problems were also fixed in later released ROM upgrades.

    Another way to be diasppointed is to expect the 700w to do everything your 650 could do, it can't....but if you researched before you buy you'd know that. If you don't like living o the bleeding edge, don't go there.

    1. Know your product. Understand it's limitations before you buy.
    2. You really don't have to be the first one on your blovk to own one.
    3. When ya read about the new features that the new thing can do, ask about the ones that the old one could do that the new one can't.
    4. Try before you buy. We pretty much know what a PC can do and ina PC you get to pick the gardware, the OS and the programs. On a Treo, the hardware is fixed, the OS is fixed and that limits the features, programs and capabilities of each. Buying one based upon a 12 line feature list, a picture on a website etc is insane. Walk into a joint that offers you options. Hold the 700w in your hand, use it try it. Hold, whatever alternates in your hand, use it, try it. Ask the salesman about each hardware, ask the salesman about the limitations. In addition to the most obvious benefist of this, you will most likely walk out with a shorter contract and a bit more money in your pocket.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by swagner
    I don't think any of us are saying a company should be allowed to rip you off. The phone does everything it is advertised to do. Just because it may be complicated does not make the company at fault (it just makes the product poor). This is not a paperweight we are talking about, it's just tough to use. Should I sue the makers of juggling balls because I can't juggle? It is attitudes like this that want to hold gunmakers responsible for crimes committed with guns, carmakers responsible for injuries because their cars can go too fast, and toilet paper makers responsible because you got a rash on your bum!

    These suits do not save everyone money. They save the lawyers and the courts money. That is why the lawyers turned politicians allow many of these insane suits to continue. Don't be so naive as to think no one gets involved in these suits for the money. They cost corporations billions, hurt innovation and once in a while get a few people a few bucks who got screwed.

    Don't get me wrong, pharmacuetical companies hiding data, anything INTENTIONALLY hiding potential danger from the consumer or outright negligent in ripping them off deserves punishment. A phone with buggy and complicated software? Sorry, but no.
    Well, my phone doesn't work as it's promised to do, nor does it work like my other free verizon phones. That's a problem because first and foremost this is a phone. Verizon hasn't lived up to their end. These suits do save money when you consider the process of people suing individually. In that case, they save everyone a ton of money…including the insurance companies.

    I certainly don't want to hold gunmakers responsible for how individuals choose to use them. That is an entirely different and completely unrelated argument. I do want to hold verizon accountable for selling me a $400 phone that works as they advertised it to do. Verizon and I have entered into a two-year contract. In order to get this phone for $400 I had to commit to using their service for two years. They have to continue to hold up their end of the meeting of the minds. Intentional is not the issue, negligence in design is, misleading the customer is...and this phone is very arguable negligently designed. The fact that it doesn't work as a phone when I travel 45 minutes from Washington DC, without having to drill down through four-five levels of screens to adjust something that doesn't need adjusting on any other phone on the market/in history is indicative of a substantial problem. I would not have bought this phone had a known that I would have to do this after every soft reset and every time I put the phone in flight mode which I have to do many times a day. The issue for me is the phone's lack of ability to roam well. This is not something you can test in a store, and be honest, is that an issue that any reasonable and prudent person would expect to encounter in this age with towers everywhere?

    Contrary to popular belief and what the insurance companies are spinning, tort reform is largely unnecessary. Claims lacking standing can always be pitched very early in the process and that is now a step that happens in nearly every single suit. They don't cost corporations billions. They don't cost insurance companies billions. Big money class actions with large settlements at the individual level are actually very, very rare. People that lack standing aren't getting rich on class actions. A few? Maybe, but they are largely the exception.

    Of course the lawyers get involved for money. They have every right to. Law school and running a legal practice is expensive. Attys have every right to make good living...just like doctors and executives. Litigants rarely get involved thinking they are getting rich without being harmed. All litigants have to show cause. People don't just sign up and get a check three years later. I got involved in mine for money...to be reimbursed for a loss, even if I knew it would only be a small percentage. I didn't get involved to get rich or hit some lottery.


    If some people want to be doormats, that's their right, but they shouldn't complain when those of us who don't stand up.
  4. cardio's Avatar
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    #24  
    My cable went out last night. Let's sue them, who is with me.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by olympus1
    Im not sure about the rest of you, but I have had it with this piece of crap 700w.
    Maybe you should have taken advantage of the 15 days VZW gave you to test it. Even if you needed more than 15 days, VZW (in my experience) would allow you to exchange it for either nothing or a low cost.

    I've had it with pointless whining. Get another phone and move on.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    My cable went out last night. Let's sue them, who is with me.
    If your cable went out for a week, should you pay the full month's bill or 3/4?
  7. #27  
    Verizon gives you something like 15 days to test the phone. I tested the treo 650 and found it would not work for me and sent it back.

    Heck, even if past the 15 days, you could always ebay your 700w and have more than enough to pay for a new phone and pda, or contract termination fee...

    I agree with the others, consumers never get anything in a class action. Verizon survived a class action lawsuit and they still cripple their phones, nothing changed.
  8. cardio's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    If your cable went out for a week, should you pay the full month's bill or 3/4?

    If I did not do my homework on the product I agreeded upon, yeah guess I screwed myself. If I must have the newest thing that hits the market, guess what, I expect to find bugs in the product. If I add additional stuff on once I get a product, guess what, I should expect some conflicts. If I have a trial period, and do not take full advantage of the trial period and run the product through everything I expect it to do, yeah I screwed myself.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    If I did not do my homework on the product I agreeded upon, yeah guess I screwed myself. If I must have the newest thing that hits the market, guess what, I expect to find bugs in the product. If I add additional stuff on once I get a product, guess what, I should expect some conflicts. If I have a trial period, and do not take full advantage of the trial period and run the product through everything I expect it to do, yeah I screwed myself.
    I did my homework. While bothersome, I can deal with 98% of the quirks, even all the memory issues, etc. I expected that. Tell me anyone ever expected that they would have to drill down four levels to make the phone roam properly? That's not a question of doing one's homework. It's a case of Verizon not providing/testing a very basic utility in all phones on the market. Name any other phone on the market that requires the user to constantly update the home automatic a automatic b field. There aren't any. I have one third party app on the phone (ewallet) precisely because I don't want confilicts or the headaches of reg edits.
  10. #30  
    Sue the b*st*rds!

    You're wrong, the negligence is yours for failing to properly test the device and the service during the 15 day trial period, but what does that matter? Sue the b*st*rds!

    Time was when early adopters of leading-edge technologies considered themselves pioneers. Their tests, trials, and tribulations tamed the howling wilderness. Then they'd stop off at a place like this, crack open a bottle of Moxie, and tell us all about the pitfalls and pratfalls, how to avoid them, how to exploit them, and where the Easter eggs are hidden. But you expect the latest and most envelope-pushing technology to be powerful, flexible, simple, and bug-free. Sue the b*st*rds!

    And while we're at it, what kind of slipshod and thoughtless designer programmed this life? There's no Undo, there's no Restore from Backup, some of the graphics and sound effects are awful, and when your character dies, you're out of the game and lose all of your treasure and weapons. You know what I think we should do?

    Sue the b*st*rds!!!
  11. cardio's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    I did my homework. While bothersome, I can deal with 98% of the quirks, even all the memory issues, etc. I expected that. Tell me anyone ever expected that they would have to drill down four levels to make the phone roam properly? That's not a question of doing one's homework. It's a case of Verizon not providing/testing a very basic utility in all phones on the market. Name any other phone on the market that requires the user to constantly update the home automatic a automatic b field. There aren't any. I have one third party app on the phone (ewallet) precisely because I don't want confilicts or the headaches of reg edits.
    I do not have a 700 (have the 650) so I don't know the issue with the roaming, but is this something that started after your trial period expired or was it required everytime you left the DC area?
    Are you ready to deal with the hassel of a class action lawsuit to get $25? Regardless of how much we dislike it, the big companies have the money to spend on legal teams that will negate any calss action lawsuit, or at the minimum drag it out over years and then go on with the same level of business.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  12. Cartman's Avatar
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    #32  
    What's funny is that this is by far the best Windows Mobile Phone Edition device released to date!!!

    I take it a lot of you haven't used some of the previous or competitor Windows Mobile products....they really suck when it comes to using them as a phone... sure they work but are far more difficult to use and have many, many phone usability issues.

    The 700w was a godsend when it comes to phone functionality! I will testify in court to this regard as an expert witness
  13. #33  
    The following statements by littlewaywelt are very telling.

    Something as simple as a phone with pda functionality should work.
    my phone doesn't work as it's promised to do, nor does it work like my other free verizon phones.
    Tell me anyone ever expected that they would have to drill down four levels to make the phone roam properly?
    Point 1. SImple as a phone and pda? Obviously you havent been doing this very long. If it were simple, most of the threads on this board and countless others wouldn't exist. This statement is a huge neon sign over your head and it says NOOB!

    Point 2. The free phones Verizon or any other carrier offers are not complex windows based computers in addition to a phone. Such a Duh statement I can hardly beleieve I am typing it.

    Point 3. Please find a phone where you dont have to drill down to find the roaming settings. I sell phones for a living and I have yet to see one of any type or brand that has the roaming settings in the top level of menu items. Hell most of them are at least three levels into the menu.

    Sorry pall but you should have done your homework. You clearly don't have a clue. Good luck witht he lawsuit. You'll need it.

    Warning: you may have to drill several levels into the phone book to find the lawyers. The don't put them on the first page.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I do not have a 700 (have the 650) so I don't know the issue with the roaming, but is this something that started after your trial period expired or was it required everytime you left the DC area?
    Are you ready to deal with the hassel of a class action lawsuit to get $25? Regardless of how much we dislike it, the big companies have the money to spend on legal teams that will negate any calss action lawsuit, or at the minimum drag it out over years and then go on with the same level of business.
    I didn't leave the dc area during the two week trial period. And I'll make my point yet again....I'd be willing to bet that no one tested for this when they adopted the phone. Seriously...everyone assumes that a phone will roam properly and that when it's shut off it retains the network settings. The 700 doesn't do this, it always reverts to the home setting after it has been turned off/flight mode, or soft reset. The tech I spoke with yesterday was amazed at this. This is clearly someone's oversight. There's no logical reason for the phone to act this way and it's going to result in a lot of irritated customers.

    The legal fees encountered by the respondent are their responsibility whether they have a team of one or fifty. The fees encountered by the class would normally be added to the damages, so that doesn't come out of the pocket of the class.

    Do I want to sue over this? No. But there is definitely standing for it. I've been a verizon/bell atlantic mobile customer since 1985 and I can remember when roaming was a lot more complicated than the 700 is. Anyone remember the advent of "Follow Me Roaming"? *18

    To the person above, I've been using palms since they were first introduced, pdas long before that and probably had a mobile phone a lot longer than you (1985) and when they were a thousand bucks and took up two milkcrates twenty years ago.
    I'm a noob to WM5 and the treo, but that's about it.


    You apologists are amazing. This is a major functional flaw with the phone that should have been addressed. This has nothing to do with my "testing," and those that think it does, it only shows your absolute ignorance of the law. The burden here is on Verizon, not on my abilities as a tester.
    Last edited by littlewaywelt; 03/28/2006 at 12:24 PM.
  15. cardio's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    I didn't leave the dc area during the two week trial period. And I'll make my point yet again....I'd be willing to bet that no one tested for this when they adopted the phone. Seriously...everyone assumes that a phone will roam properly and that when it's shut off it retains the network settings. The 700 doesn't do this, it always reverts to the home setting after it has been turned off/flight mode, or soft reset. The tech I spoke with yesterday was amazed at this. This is clearly someone's oversight. There's no logical reason for the phone to act this way and it's going to result in a lot of irritated customers.

    The legal fees encountered by the respondent are their responsibility whether they have a team of one or fifty. The fees encountered by the class would normally be added to the damages, so that doesn't come out of the pocket of the class.

    Do I want to sue over this? No. But there is definitely standing for it. I've been a verizon/bell atlantic mobile customer since 1985 and I can remember when roaming was a lot more complicated than the 700 is. Anyone remember the advent of "Follow Me Roaming"? *18

    To the person above, I've been using palms since they were first introduced, pdas long before that and probably had a mobile phone a lot longer than you (1985) and when they were a thousand bucks and took up two milkcrates twenty years ago.
    I'm a noob to WM5 and the treo, but that's about it.


    You apologists are amazing. This is a major functional flaw with the phone that should have been addressed. This has nothing to do with my "testing," and those that think it does, it only shows your absolute ignorance of the law. The burden here is on Verizon, not on my abilities as a tester.
    Really now, does your Verizon contract state that the phone will roam flawlessly? If it does, then you are on pretty solid legal ground. If it does not state that or something very close to that, then you my friend may be SOL. When I get a new phone, or think about changing carriers I make sure I test the device during the trial period, and yes that means driving up to Tahoe, into the Bay area, out on the Bay up and down I-5. Why would I purchase something or sign a contract with someone without determining if it meets my needs. I think you should have drove to Baltimore, to Fairfax, even down to Va Beach, before your trial period ended.
    Hey, I got a nice new car for sell. You don't need to test drive it, everything works just like you would like it to, handles corners just like you think it will, acceleration, exactly like you want, braking right on your expectation, what do you want to haul, it will fit perfect.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    The fact that a company has to deal with lawsuits doesn't have anything to do with time resource allocation. You think the programmers are dealing with causal relationships and the attys are dealing with bug fixes? Come on.
    It's not a time issue... it's a money issue. No company in the world has unlimited funds, so it's going to either programers or lawyers.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Really now, does your Verizon contract state that the phone will roam flawlessly? If it does, then you are on pretty solid legal ground. If it does not state that or something very close to that, then you my friend may be SOL. When I get a new phone, or think about changing carriers I make sure I test the device during the trial period, and yes that means driving up to Tahoe, into the Bay area, out on the Bay up and down I-5. Why would I purchase something or sign a contract with someone without determining if it meets my needs. I think you should have drove to Baltimore, to Fairfax, even down to Va Beach, before your trial period ended.
    Hey, I got a nice new car for sell. You don't need to test drive it, everything works just like you would like it to, handles corners just like you think it will, acceleration, exactly like you want, braking right on your expectation, what do you want to haul, it will fit perfect.
    It doesn't state that of course, and you know that, but a reasonable and prudent person can assume that the phone that they provided will work to what is generally considered acceptable by the average RPP. This is an understood part of the contract and its implied in several ways. I have owned dozens of phones from Verizon since 1984-1985 and it is very reasonable for me to assume, using the RPP test, that this phone would perform in a similar manner. IF verizon informed me of the difference/requirement or mentioned it in the manual they might have a leg in their defense. Again, the reponsibility is theirs, not mine in this manner.
    What kind of car is it? I need another. While amusing, your cars comment is unrelated and draws on different parallels.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Point 3. Please find a phone where you dont have to drill down to find the roaming settings. I sell phones for a living and I have yet to see one of any type or brand that has the roaming settings in the top level of menu items. Hell most of them are at least three levels into the menu.
    The point is that all phones retain the setting. They don't require the user to reset it every time the phone is turned off or reset.
  19. #39  
    Yes, let's sue. Afterall, the phone works as desgined out of the box...what kind of crap is that!!!
  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt
    It doesn't state that of course, and you know that, but a reasonable and prudent person can assume that the phone that they provided will work to what is generally considered acceptable by the average RPP. This is an understood part of the contract and its implied in several ways. I have owned dozens of phones from Verizon since 1984-1985 and it is very reasonable for me to assume, using the RPP test, that this phone would perform in a similar manner. IF verizon informed me of the difference/requirement or mentioned it in the manual they might have a leg in their defense. Again, the reponsibility is theirs, not mine in this manner.
    What kind of car is it? I need another. While amusing, your cars comment is unrelated and draws on different parallels.
    You are correct on the car and phone being on different parallels. The autombile industry does not give you 2 weeks to try the product to decide if it meets your expectations.
    What WM5 device are you comparing with the 700 that allows you to draw the conclusions? If this was a simple cell phone, sure make those comparisons and it might hold water.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
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