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  1.    #1  
    I've been using the Treo 600 and 650 since they were introduced and have a love/hate relationship with it. One of my worst hates right now is the instability of the OS (my unit resets at least once a day). I don't want to get into a discussion of exactly why my unit is unstable but rather I want to ask the 700W owners about the stability of this unit. How often does your unit crash/reset? Does the crash of a program cause the unit to reset or does the OS contain the crash and recover without a reset/reboot?

    Thanks,
    David
  2. #2  
    When a program crashes the unit resets by design. If the unit runs w/o 3rd party programs it is stable. If it doesn't run after a certain 3rd party program is installed, the program is unstable. There will be programs on BOTH OS's with this capability. If you install so many active programs that you have memory resource / conflict problems, both units have limited memory resources so from a hardware / OS standpoint you're in the same boat. OTOH, WM5 lets you have multiple programs open so that will diminish available memory.

    You actually don't want to run the unit after a crash as with limited memory resources, the crashed program will still have a good potion of those resources locked. It is a good idea to do a soft reset before or after running any really memory intensive program (i.e. EDGE, TomTom). You can make your life easier tho by doing this from the screen rather then taking off the cover.
  3. #3  
    The answer above may be symptomatic of the limited memory of the Treo 700w, but in WM its perfectly fine to kill a crashed program, and go on as if nothing happened. I do this frequently when Netfront 3.3 gets sluggish/locks up. Also spontaneous resets, where the device restarts when an apps crashes, should also not happen in WM, and its not designed to do this, Lastly, due to memory protection, when a program crashes and is killed it should not continue to consume resources afterward.

    Jack's experience sounds a lot more of what I expect a Treo 650 should do.

    Surur
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidwsica
    I've been using the Treo 600 and 650 since they were introduced and have a love/hate relationship with it. One of my worst hates right now is the instability of the OS (my unit resets at least once a day). I don't want to get into a discussion of exactly why my unit is unstable but rather I want to ask the 700W owners about the stability of this unit. How often does your unit crash/reset? Does the crash of a program cause the unit to reset or does the OS contain the crash and recover without a reset/reboot?

    Thanks,
    David
    I had stability issues with Palm OS because I had to add so much 3rd party junk to get it run efficiently as a PDA and information manager. I haven't had to add any 3rd party stuff to the 700 because WM5's pda functionality is 10x better than palm's...thus it is stable. I won't add anything unless I feel it's absolutely neccessary. I have to soft reset probably once a week to deal with low memory, but I don't find that to be a big deal at all. The unit has never crashed on me like my palm os stuff did. I should say, though that when I refer to palm os that's with respect to their pdas not the 600 or 650.
  5. #5  
    I too had resets/freezes about everyday with the 650. I have NEVER had a sudden reset in two months with the 700w. I have found it be FAR more stable. That said, when I am multitasking (for example, I have email, media player, and web browsing with IE), IE will often become sluggish, which tells me I have to manually close, say, media player. Sometimes things will slow down so much that the wait is over a minute. (On the plus side, with true multitasking, I can often switch to a different program; MagicButton is invaluable in this regard) It acts quite a bit like a desktop Windows XP would if it had too little RAM. Personally, this is a more acceptable design that the utterly unpredictable resets I endured with the 650.
  6. #6  
    My experience with the 700w has been that the OS is fine, but that I have to do a number of soft resets each week. It's typical Windows - fine functionality but not stable. Sometimes when I use the Piscel PDF viewer I get odd errors...other times the OS becomes unstable using Internet Explorer. Sometimes it just runs slow and I do a soft reset to "clear things up."

    Doesn't sound like the 650 is much better, which suprises me a bit given how much some people rave about it. I've never used Palm so I don't have a basis to compare the two but if the OS is as shaky as WM5, I have to wonder why some believe the 650 is still better than the 700.
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by rdstoll
    My experience with the 700w has been that the OS is fine, but that I have to do a number of soft resets each week. It's typical Windows - fine functionality but not stable. Sometimes when I use the Piscel PDF viewer I get odd errors...other times the OS becomes unstable using Internet Explorer. Sometimes it just runs slow and I do a soft reset to "clear things up."

    Doesn't sound like the 650 is much better, which suprises me a bit given how much some people rave about it. I've never used Palm so I don't have a basis to compare the two but if the OS is as shaky as WM5, I have to wonder why some believe the 650 is still better than the 700.
    I think at least on the 650 (and probably other POS devices in general) it comes down to what 3rd party apps you're using. It's funny because one of the selling points of a POS device is all the 3rd party apps out there yet you're asking for trouble (as far as OS stability) if you run these apps. In fact, when I was having reset issues with my 1st 650 (which turned out to be bad hardware) Sprint basically woulnd't even talk to me until I did a hard reset to remove all 3rd party apps.

    I can understand there are going to be good and bad 3rd party apps but what I don't forgive is an OS that allows itself to be brought to it's knees or broken because of the poor behavior of an application. In these days and times you would think they could build a stable OS that can separate itself from these poorly written 3rd party apps. Well, IMHO POS on my 650 is a house of cards OS just waiting to be toppled. And, I for one have had my house toppled a few too many times.

    I was hoping that WM5 would be an improvement given that it's a more modern multitasking OS. It sounds like it IS more stable, if only they would ship with more memory! It really gets me how companies will knowingly cripple a device by being too stingy to stick the necessary RAM into a device!

    I also have hopes for the future Linux-based POS Treos but who know if/when we'll ever see that on a new Treo. I could be waiting here with my 650 resetting for months if not more than a year.
  8. #8  
    I agree, as I'd really love to download some 3rd party apps but am very wary of doing so because I don't want the whole thing to slow down. It's just like a desktop, if you keep downloading a bunch of programs, eventually the registery gets mucked up and the whole OS comes to a halt.

    I did purchase Pocket CoPilot for the Treo 700w and am very impressed with it. I've been a long-time CoPilot user on my old iPaq and think they really made some headway with version 6. I use a Bluetooth GPS receiver for it and it works like a snap and the program is stable.
  9. #9  
    Does CoPilot, or even TomTom, use much RAM? I'm sure they do, but exactly how much are we looking at? I want to install my TomTom that I had on my 650 but also, I am worried...
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    #10  
    i have 0 (read: zero) third-party apps on my Treo, and it has soft-reset at least once a week for the past 5 weeks. Verizon has suggested that I have too many contacts, email and/or tasks on the my phone, but this is not the case. I have approximately 200 contacts, 1 days worth of email (50-60 emails without attachments) and 0 tasks. Verizon is stumped and they want to send me a refurbished device. i love the form factor of the Treo, but the unpredictable soft-resets are driving me nuts!
    cortez
    Xda Orbit 2 / Sprint Diamond / Samsung Epix / Touch HD
  11. #11  
    dcortez, do you use VZW Wireless Sync?
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepat
    Does CoPilot, or even TomTom, use much RAM? I'm sure they do, but exactly how much are we looking at? I want to install my TomTom that I had on my 650 but also, I am worried...

    I'm not sure exactly how much RAM it takes, but I've used it when I had Internet Explorer open and I have Wirelessync running in the background, as well as Bluetooth enabled. As of yet, I have not encountered any memory issues. As far as storage, you will want to buy a big SD card to put the map data on. ALK sells a 1GB card along with CoPilot but I would skip that and just buy the card somewhere else for 1/2 the cost.

    Actually, for grins, I just opened IE, the camera, Windows Media, Solitaire, messaging - and finally CoPilot, and it worked just fine.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by dcortez
    i have 0 (read: zero) third-party apps on my Treo, and it has soft-reset at least once a week for the past 5 weeks. i love the form factor of the Treo, but the unpredictable soft-resets are driving me nuts!
    boy, I'd think that's par for the course, no? I seem to have to do 5 soft resets per week, if not more, and that's right out of the box. I have less contacts and emails than you do but find that sometimes IE gets locked up or Windows Media gets mucked up.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack's experience sounds a lot more of what I expect a Treo 650 should do.
    What I am saying is that if a program crashes, you may be able to get away with going on but you probably don't want to. When a program crashes it has a tendency to not let go of memory and that memory, like with windows desktops, often doesn't reappear till the next reboot. Yes, that was suppossed to go away with the end of Win3.1 and Win95 thru ME and WinNT, Win2k and now XP are designed to eliminate a lot of that but it still exists. We certainly shouldn't expect the Palm or WM5 OS to have the sophistication of an OS with 1.4 gigs of code.

    Don't want your OS to behave funkily and get caught with an inopportune reset, then when your device does soemthing funky, and gets the equivalent of a keft hook to the temple, best to give it a fresh start and clear out all the cobwebs.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Don't want your OS to behave funkily and get caught with an inopportune reset, then when your device does soemthing funky, and gets the equivalent of a keft hook to the temple, best to give it a fresh start and clear out all the cobwebs.
    I'm laughing over here because I really do feel like I'm taking care of a child with Windows (XP or WM5) sometimes. Program crashes? Sooth its soul with a nice reboot. That's just the lay of the land.

    I'm the reboot masta!!
  16. #16  
    Some problems faced by early Treo adopters were related to immature ROM's, early run manufacturing defects, 600-> 650 upgraders who didn't do fresh installs and mostly program developers who rushed out new apps for the thing before adequate testing. I have no 3rd party apps intended to make it run more efficiently, no 3rd party apps to provide missing functionality. I do have 70-something applications on it and I can recall only 3 crashes since February 6th 2005. All 3 were after installing a new program.

    Then again, I suffered geek envy for 3-4 months while Palm and the carriers worked out their early release jitters but I always prefer to let others ride the bleeding edge. It saves me money, frustration and lots of time. If I could only get my desktops to require as little time and attention as my 650, I'd have a whole lot of free time on my hands.
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by rdstoll
    I'm laughing over here because I really do feel like I'm taking care of a child with Windows (XP or WM5) sometimes. Program crashes? Sooth its soul with a nice reboot. That's just the lay of the land.

    I'm the reboot masta!!
    It's amazing that we put up with a device that out of the box we have to reboot "frequently" to achieve reliable performance. Would you accept this level of reliability with your TV, your car? What about a good standard cell phone? OK, maybe you can argue that the analogies are not apples/apples but is it too much to ask to have a stable device that can perform for at least 1-2 weeks without a reboot necessary. What, I'm talking about MS, when was the last time you had Windows running for more than a couple days without a reboot.

    Ok, don't get me wrong, I'm not MS bashing, I actually do believe that WM5 is probably the "best" mobile OS out there but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

    David
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidwsica
    What, I'm talking about MS, when was the last time you had Windows running for more than a couple days without a reboot.

    David


    I dont know about you, but my WinXP Sp2 desktop is perfectly stable. Ive got 19 days uptime, and thats only because the last mandatory security update has been 19 days ago. And I really use this computer. Ive got Rhapsody running on it, and LogMeIn, and Maxthon (IE Shell) with 24 tabs open. I run a web server and mail server on the same device, and use Kontiki, which is a legal P2P client with Sky Satellite TV, leading to gigabytes of transfers.

    If you are having *any* crashes in Win XP there is something wrong, usually with your hardware or drivers. The solution is not to reboot, but to find your whats the problem and fix it. The same applies to Windows Mobile.

    Surur
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    I dont know about you, but my WinXP Sp2 desktop is perfectly stable. Ive got 19 days uptime, and thats only because the last mandatory security update has been 19 days ago. And I really use this computer. Ive got Rhapsody running on it, and LogMeIn, and Maxthon (IE Shell) with 24 tabs open. I run a web server and mail server on the same device, and use Kontiki, which is a legal P2P client with Sky Satellite TV, leading to gigabytes of transfers.

    If you are having *any* crashes in Win XP there is something wrong, usually with your hardware or drivers. The solution is not to reboot, but to find your whats the problem and fix it. The same applies to Windows Mobile.

    Surur
    OK, I was exaggerating a little bit I think XP SP2 is a pretty good OS but to be honest I still get the occassional BSOD and although I'm pretty computer savvy it's not exactly easy to determine what causes these crashes.

    My point is just that I'd like an OS (desktop and mobile) that doesn't spontaneously reboot/crash. I don't mind so much manually restarting to "clear" things up but I don't want my system crashing in the middle of some work. It sounds like from the responses so far the WM5 does a pretty good job of preventing spontaneous crashes and probably better than POS. That's good news and puts me another step closer to trading in my 650 for a 700w.
  20. #20  
    I don't know if I'm doing something right, or those of you with reset issues are doing something wrong, or if I'm just lucky.

    I have quite a few 3rd party apps installed, including a number of background apps, and my Treo is close to rock solid. I can't remember the last time I had a reset in anything other than Blazer. And those occur, on average, maybe once a week.

    BTW, I'm on a 650.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
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