Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 51
  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    Does this infer 32 megs of RAM is somehow superior to 64 megs? Interesting.
    Not it doesn't infer anything except that adding something that the public says they want, whether it be more memory, more features, better perofrmance, often kills a product in the marketplace because adding the change pushes it above a price ceiling that people are either willing or accustomed to paying. It's the same reason why products are still priced at $599.95 because it's proven over and over again that the buying public still recognizes this as in a different price category than $600.

    Execs are confident that putting out a product with 32 MB for $599 will get bought because CFO's have been approving purchases for years at that level....jumping to the next level of RAM at $639 introduces cost plus peripheral design issues related to heat and form factor as well additional testing after hacking the OS to support it. Most importantly however, the established price ceiling has been exceeded and execs have got to be worrid that the product won't sell. In addition, it levaes them little wiggle room for the 750 and 800.....how they gonna convince you to upgrade to the 750 if they go all out with the 700 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    Inumerable focus studies, huh? If any one of those decision-makers had spent 10 minutes on these boards, they'd know how their potential 700w customers feel about short-changing the RAM based on their 650 customers' complaints. Fucus studies, yeah, right.
    It may be an unpleasant thought but realize that you and I, the individual Treo buyer don't mean squat to the marketing scheme of the 700w. This is a device for corportate america. Purchases, the ones Palm most cares about with this model, are the lots of 500, 1,000 and 1,500 that Fortune 50 companies are gonna buy and the people who work for them whose help desks won't support anythng that doesn't say MS on it. This isn't a hardware issue....this is a WM5 versus a PalmOS issues. Palm can't afford to hurt it's individualistic loyal base with a superior WM device without something to offer that base. The fact that swapping out the RAM chips for bigger ones still leaves you with the same amount available to the OS is indicative that there is more at work here than just slipping in bigger modules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe
    I'm trying to figure out which feature they added by saving ~$0.34 per unit with the smaller RAM chip (check out the wholesale pricing). Could it be wi-fi? Oops, not that! Could it be higher rez screen? Oops not that! Could it be smaller form factor than the 6700 (which sells for $100 less and is built by the same company)? Oops not that! Hmmm - I wonder what the great feature is? Could it be penny-pinching, profit-maximizing, clueless Palm decision-makers? I think I'm getting warmer now.
    Well I can't see them putting in a higher resolution screen when the OS doesn't support it. And I am wondering what's the thing with the OS that when PCtechs puts in larger memory chips that it doesn't make the memory available to the unit. I guess they could have waited until MS got around to supporting those things but how much ground would they have lost in the marketplace still not having a WM5 unit on the market ?

    In addition, this industry makes it bucks by convincing a good number of gadgeteers to buy a new thing every year so they can have the coolest gadget on the block. Few people really "need" these things but to a significant segment of the Treo buying public, being able to watch movies and stream radio is "cool" especially when people convince themselves they "need it for work". So what is there to put in the 750 or 800 next year ?

    I am willing to throw down about $100 - $150 a year for my "gadget". I kept my $400 Pam Vx for 4 years and my $300 Treo 650 will serve me at least until 2007. I bypassed the 600 cause I thought that I didn't want to throw down that money for a 160 x 160 device that still required me to wear a wire from my ear to my shirt pocket. I don't think I will go for the 700p unless my wife cries out for my 650 and judging by how she's clamoring for GPS now after seeing mine that's a reasonable probability. But I a more likely to skip a round as the technology advancement between consecutive releases is not that great and hardly ever worth the money.

    I expect Palm is saving the better screen, more RAM and WiFI both to have something left to offer the next generation and convinve people to shed their year old units. Ia lso wonder if they aren't saving one or to of those as a kick to their new WM5 customers saying "yeah, we can give you a competitive WM
    unit but if you really want all the mojo, a Palm based unit gives you more for ya money".
  2. #22  
    Folks,

    I think that the T700 is a good device -- and works.

    But the memory limitation makes it hard for us geeks to realize the true potential of WM5. This could have been a GREAT device.

    If you are coming from the Palm OS world, you will like it. If you are coming from the Windows Mobile world, you are going to wonder -- what was Palm thinking???

    Palm is assuming that all the third party providers will rewrite their apps for the screen. That is possible. But the memory limit is much harder to overcome.

    If you combine the problems with memory, screen, and ActiveSync problems, Palm, Verizon and Microsoft have some issues to deal with.

    The 6700 on Sprint does not have the screen or memory issues, and Sprint allows tethering and unlimited data for $15. For $5 / month the device can roam on Verizon or any carrier on your plan. It also allows you to choose Sprint, Roaming, or best Signal.

    I tested the T700 for the entire 15 day return period. I am testing the 6700 on Sprint and am going to keep it. The reason most WM devices donít provide quick access to the task manager is because they donít need it.

    Letís see how it plays out...

    Glenn
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    Folks,

    I think that the T700 is a good device -- and works.

    But the memory limitation makes it hard for us geeks to realize the true potential of WM5. This could have been a GREAT device.

    If you are coming from the Palm OS world, you will like it. If you are coming from the Windows Mobile world, you are going to wonder -- what was Palm thinking???

    Palm is assuming that all the third party providers will rewrite their apps for the screen. That is possible. But the memory limit is much harder to overcome.

    If you combine the problems with memory, screen, and ActiveSync problems, Palm, Verizon and Microsoft have some issues to deal with.

    The 6700 on Sprint does not have the screen or memory issues, and Sprint allows tethering and unlimited data for $15. For $5 / month the device can roam on Verizon or any carrier on your plan. It also allows you to choose Sprint, Roaming, or best Signal.

    I tested the T700 for the entire 15 day return period. I am testing the 6700 on Sprint and am going to keep it. The reason most WM devices donít provide quick access to the task manager is because they donít need it.

    Letís see how it plays out...

    Glenn
    i think this is well thought out, except for one point only. i came from a wm03 device and i never once asked "what was Palm thinking" as i yet to face a real failure. would it be a great device if it had more ram? i suppose, but only to those that need it. so i suppose those who need more ram will opt for another device (as you did, the 6700 in this case). additionally, i don't understand the problem with the screen, I think it is quite sharp and bright, many others do too. activesync problems? i yet to face one, i'm not certain i understand it's misgivings.

    regards
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez
    i additionally, i don't understand the problem with the screen, I think it is quite sharp and bright, many others do too.regards
    For me its mostly a text on screen thing. Let's say for the sake of argument that to accurately make a symbol or character on screen so that it doesn't look too blocky you need a height of 12 pixels. With a third height line spacing, that means each line of text will take up say 16 pixels. BTW, these number picked to make math easy not indicate what each individual can comfortably read.

    On a 240 x 240 screen, you can therefore fit 15 lines of text. On a 320 screen, you'd get 20 lines of text. You either have to give up lines or give up some clarity. It approximates the difference in detail between working on a desktop at 1024 x 768 and working at 800 x 600.
  5. jstpa's Avatar
    Posts
    218 Posts
    Global Posts
    220 Global Posts
    #25  
    I think all you're really saying is that the text will be smaller and you can fit more crap on the screen. That doesn't necessarily make things better.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by jstpa
    I think all you're really saying is that the text will be smaller and you can fit more crap on the screen. That doesn't necessarily make things better.
    Well if it means you have to hit the scroll button 4 times to read a page versus 6 times, then I think that is a real advantage.....and if you are viewing a 320 pixel wide image on a 240 x 240 screen, you are going to have to scroll left and right also.

    I like to use small fonts whenever an app makes them available to fit more data on screen. The lower resolution however is going to make those small fonts bigger and therefore remove any advantage that small fonts option gives me.

    It simply means more detail.....would you pay $1200 for a video card / LCD screen combo on your desktop so that you could use 1600 x 1200 resolution instead of $500 to view at 1024 x 768 ? Someone doing general office apps might not but a serious gamer or a photo editor would.

    Another analogy would be you might take a digital photo that looks fine when printed at 3 x 5 but if you go to 4 x 6 it looks too grainy.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well if it means you have to hit the scroll button 4 times to read a page versus 6 times, then I think that is a real advantage.....and if you are viewing a 320 pixel wide image on a 240 x 240 screen, you are going to have to scroll left and right also.

    I like to use small fonts whenever an app makes them available to fit more data on screen. The lower resolution however is going to make those small fonts bigger and therefore remove any advantage that small fonts option gives me.

    It simply means more detail.....would you pay $1200 for a video card / LCD screen combo on your desktop so that you could use 1600 x 1200 resolution instead of $500 to view at 1024 x 768 ? Someone doing general office apps might not but a serious gamer or a photo editor would.

    Another analogy would be you might take a digital photo that looks fine when printed at 3 x 5 but if you go to 4 x 6 it looks too grainy.
    It's all about what matters to you. One person may find 4 clicks instead of 6 to be a problem. Another person may find that 6 clicks instead of 4 is too insignificant to even think about.

    Here's a question - If more detail is the priority, why not get a PDA with a VGA screen?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    In what respect ? They have different form factors and therefore different design limitations. Some factor of there design may allow for a feew extra dollars left over that wasn't available to Palm engineers.

    I was talking about the memory, how do you explain why the 6700 has 64mb and the 700w 32mb.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    I was talking about the memory, how do you explain why the 6700 has 64mb and the 700w 32mb.
    i don't have a good answer for this. perhaps the 6700 needed the additional RAM to operate at the same functioning level (out of the box) as the Treo 700? just a shot in the dark, nothing more, nothing less.

    regards
  10. nuflat's Avatar
    Posts
    294 Posts
    Global Posts
    321 Global Posts
    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Well if it means you have to hit the scroll button 4 times to read a page versus 6 times, then I think that is a real advantage.....and if you are viewing a 320 pixel wide image on a 240 x 240 screen, you are going to have to scroll left and right also.

    I like to use small fonts whenever an app makes them available to fit more data on screen. The lower resolution however is going to make those small fonts bigger and therefore remove any advantage that small fonts option gives me.

    It simply means more detail.....would you pay $1200 for a video card / LCD screen combo on your desktop so that you could use 1600 x 1200 resolution instead of $500 to view at 1024 x 768 ? Someone doing general office apps might not but a serious gamer or a photo editor would.

    Another analogy would be you might take a digital photo that looks fine when printed at 3 x 5 but if you go to 4 x 6 it looks too grainy.
    If someone is wanting this for games they need to buy a PSP or Gameboy. This comes down to the fact that all these phone companies add on extra fluff, games, music, whatever instead of spending money on improving the call quality of the phone or expanding their network. I could care less if the 700 or 650 or any cell phone or PDA for that matter did any of that. If I can't get a signal or have poor quality calls, it's worthless to me.

    I need it as a communication device with access to important numbers and notes when I am out in the field for quick access. Big deal if I can stream Desperate Housewives via a slingbox or any other means. I have an iPod that I can use all that for.

    Yes that's an extra device I would carry on a trip, but that also means extra battery life for my Treo. I'd hate to be on a conference call with the boss and a client and my battery start to die because I was listening to Britney Spears Greatest hits on the flight over! (not a real world example, just trying to stress a point.)

    I used to think that I should have the most expensive graphics card in my home PC so I could play the latest games, but then my wife bought me an Xbox for Xmas one year and I don't have a single game loaded on my PC.

    For all those people who are nagging about the difference in the resolution, get a life. Hell, I bet most people have a hard enough time reading a damn cell phone screen in the first place, the minute difference between 2 should not be a deal breaker. It's not like your watching high definition.

    At my office all the employees have LCD screens on their desks but half of them cry because when you set them at the proper resolution, they can't see the damn fonts, etc, so they have to lower the resolution to everything is bigger and do they give a damn? No, but they can see the screen.

    Also is someone going to calculate the amount of time they cost the company when they have to click 6 times instead of 4?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by nuflat
    If someone is wanting this for games they need to buy a PSP or Gameboy. This comes down to the fact that all these phone companies add on extra fluff, games, music, whatever instead of spending money on improving the call quality of the phone or expanding their network. I could care less if the 700 or 650 or any cell phone or PDA for that matter did any of that. If I can't get a signal or have poor quality calls, it's worthless to me.

    I need it as a communication device with access to important numbers and notes when I am out in the field for quick access. Big deal if I can stream Desperate Housewives via a slingbox or any other means. I have an iPod that I can use all that for.

    Yes that's an extra device I would carry on a trip, but that also means extra battery life for my Treo. I'd hate to be on a conference call with the boss and a client and my battery start to die because I was listening to Britney Spears Greatest hits on the flight over! (not a real world example, just trying to stress a point.)

    I used to think that I should have the most expensive graphics card in my home PC so I could play the latest games, but then my wife bought me an Xbox for Xmas one year and I don't have a single game loaded on my PC.

    For all those people who are nagging about the difference in the resolution, get a life. Hell, I bet most people have a hard enough time reading a damn cell phone screen in the first place, the minute difference between 2 should not be a deal breaker. It's not like your watching high definition.

    At my office all the employees have LCD screens on their desks but half of them cry because when you set them at the proper resolution, they can't see the damn fonts, etc, so they have to lower the resolution to everything is bigger and do they give a damn? No, but they can see the screen.

    Also is someone going to calculate the amount of time they cost the company when they have to click 6 times instead of 4?
    rational thoughts, well said.

    regards
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    I was talking about the memory, how do you explain why the 6700 has 64mb and the 700w 32mb.
    Could be many reasons, but I wouldn't claim to be privvy to any of them. As an engineer, I often wrestele with client's expectations and have to tell them stuff they don't wanna hear. "Sorry guys but for your budget you can have 4 of the 7 things you listed...either fork over more buckaroos or live with less".

    Shooting in the dark tho.....

    1. Every buy milk in a supermarket where they sell it for less than it costs ? Maybe they decided to make an investment and are purposely losing money or not making their regular margins on the thing to move more peeps into their brand.
    2. Are they discounting the thing as much as Palm ? Can you buy a 6700 for $99 ? You can buy a Plantronics headset that has an MSRP of $250 for under $110. Does the fact that the MSRP of another unit is $175 mean that the Plantronics cost more to build ?
    3. The form factors aren't the same. The parts aren't the same. The sum of costs for parts and labor are therefore not the same. Did Palm spend more money for higher quality more durable parts than the 6700 deisgners did ? Is the Palm KB rated for more cycles ?
    4. Are the sales of ther last unit the same ? Buying 100,000 thingies is more expensive than buying 500,000 thingies.
    5. We know that palm put a decent amount of time / money into tweaks and testing by having 5-way support and other tweaks that are not in the 6700....that gives the 6700 extra room for some extra doodads.
    6. This Palm's first foray into WM. They undoubtedly therefore incurred "1st time" costs that competitors who have been doing this a while wouldn't have experienced.

    The marketing team at each company "placed their bets" on what the public wants.....with the 6700, they went with 64 MB of memory and gave up something somewhere else whether it be increased cost or another feature. At Palm, they must have felt comfy that their target audience wouldn't be phased by the 32 MB as their testing had few complaining.

    Did Palm make a big booboo ? Only time will tell. But things that will affect that outcome is what the companies do with the 750w / 800 w and the 6750 6800 ? If the 6700 has 64 MB now, what makes me buy the 6750 ? Does everyone "need" 64 MB or is just a small percentage of enthusiats who might be a bit too gadget happy or can't cut the communications umbilical cord for a few minutes ?

    I mean do we really need to have huge memory hogging programs that check our e-mail every 2 minutes ? I have a 6 hour drive tomorrow up to the state capital to do some desk pounding....do I need some e-mail program to be checking for mail on this schedule when I am simply gonna ignore it thru the drive and my meetings on capitol hill from 5 am till about 3 pm ?

    I saw loads of peeps complaining about the 650's memory problems but I am sitting here and could easily operate my 650 with 20 MB free. I keep frequently used SD card capable programs off the card just to speed up my tasks and still have like 16 MB free. Palm's target market with the 700w is not the dude who wants to play last season's Sopranos episodes on the bus on the way to work or the guy who even believes that there is a place in the world for Instant Messaging programs. When making a pitch to CFO's and IT peeps they must cringe when the question comes up about the capability of such usage.

    Hey from the getgo, my answer woulda been whatever MB it takes to do Palm, you gotta double or triple that Windows bloat. But the question is not what the stats are but what can you do with the 6700 that you can't do with 700w. Until someone has answer for that, as well as the visa versa, it's hard to argue that Palm made a mistake. My guess is most of the peeps are gonna be just fine with 32 MB. While personally I would like the cushion, especially with Winbloat, all things being equal, I don't think I could go for the slide out keyboard thing. However given the choice between improved one handed usage and the extra RAM, in the absece of the 650, I'd go with the Treo 700w.

    If peeps are disappointed in the memory then my advice would be hold on to your 650 for one more year and wait for the 750. For some that will be blasphemy....for old cudgels like me, well we just get by with the tools that we need and are readily available.
  13. #33  
    I hear ya but here's the thing, what was the BIGGEST complaint coming out of the Treo 650? And I answer.... Memory, the users have spoken...But Palm wasn't listening.

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I think Palm may be insane.
  14. #34  
    Folks,

    Regarding the screen on the T700 -- I don't care too much about what you can read, the Treo's screen is OK. All the WM software providers are going to consider this device, and rewriting all their apps is going to be difficult.

    All the other devices support 320X240, and all the existing software does that. Is the T700 going to get enough market share for them to support it?

    Time will tell...

    Glenn
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    Folks,

    All the other devices support 320X240, and all the existing software does that. Is the T700 going to get enough market share for them to support it?

    Time will tell...

    Glenn
    240x240 is the new standard for exposed keyboard WM devices (Treo 700w, HP 6515, HP 6900, FSC 810, HTC Muse) Its not just Palm they have to support, so I'm sure new software will adapt well to square screens.

    Surur
  16. #36  
    Surur,

    So 240X240 is the new lower standard -- we are moving BACKWARDS?

    Glenn
  17. #37  
    Its would appears so There however remains many new (keyboardless) phone devices with QVGA screens, and most PDA's are QVGA with a small smattering of VGA screens. So its not so much going backwards as the market broadening.

    The good news is that the wizard in the new Visual Studio encourages developers to test their devices in QVGA, VGA, Square screen, Portrait and Landscape. New software should adapt quite well to the varierty thats out there.

    Surur
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    At Palm, they must have felt comfy that their target audience wouldn't be phased by the 32 MB as their testing had few complaining.
    Not sure where you get this. 100% of the testers I know found this to be a problem (~20 testers) - most were Palm users. The PPC users were the most verbal.
    I mean do we really need to have huge memory hogging programs that check our e-mail every 2 minutes ? I have a 6 hour drive tomorrow up to the state capital to do some desk pounding....do I need some e-mail program to be checking for mail on this schedule when I am simply gonna ignore it thru the drive and my meetings on capitol hill from 5 am till about 3 pm ?
    Got it. The Treo 700w is for occasional emails. RIM wins! Or perhaps you bought a phone, advertised for it's on-demand email, for something entirely different.
    I saw loads of peeps complaining about the 650's memory problems but I am sitting here and could easily operate my 650 with 20 MB free.
    Proof positive: You're special. And loads of 650 users - most likely the majority of them - were just idiots compared to you.
    But the question is not what the stats are but what can you do with the 6700 that you can't do with 700w.
    Surf with wi-fi, run more than a couple of programs simultaneously (as I continuously do), pay less money to own one. Vice versa: Stay on standby for a longer period of time.
    If peeps are disappointed in the memory then my advice would be hold on to your 650 for one more year and wait for the 750.
    Truer words were never spoken.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Could be many reasons, but I wouldn't claim to be privvy to any of them. As an engineer, I often wrestele with client's expectations and have to tell them stuff they don't wanna hear. "Sorry guys but for your budget you can have 4 of the 7 things you listed...either fork over more buckaroos or live with less".

    Shooting in the dark tho.....

    1. Every buy milk in a supermarket where they sell it for less than it costs ? Maybe they decided to make an investment and are purposely losing money or not making their regular margins on the thing to move more peeps into their brand.
    2. Are they discounting the thing as much as Palm ? Can you buy a 6700 for $99 ? You can buy a Plantronics headset that has an MSRP of $250 for under $110. Does the fact that the MSRP of another unit is $175 mean that the Plantronics cost more to build ?
    3. The form factors aren't the same. The parts aren't the same. The sum of costs for parts and labor are therefore not the same. Did Palm spend more money for higher quality more durable parts than the 6700 deisgners did ? Is the Palm KB rated for more cycles ?
    4. Are the sales of ther last unit the same ? Buying 100,000 thingies is more expensive than buying 500,000 thingies.
    5. We know that palm put a decent amount of time / money into tweaks and testing by having 5-way support and other tweaks that are not in the 6700....that gives the 6700 extra room for some extra doodads.
    6. This Palm's first foray into WM. They undoubtedly therefore incurred "1st time" costs that competitors who have been doing this a while wouldn't have experienced.

    The marketing team at each company "placed their bets" on what the public wants.....with the 6700, they went with 64 MB of memory and gave up something somewhere else whether it be increased cost or another feature. At Palm, they must have felt comfy that their target audience wouldn't be phased by the 32 MB as their testing had few complaining.

    Did Palm make a big booboo ? Only time will tell. But things that will affect that outcome is what the companies do with the 750w / 800 w and the 6750 6800 ? If the 6700 has 64 MB now, what makes me buy the 6750 ? Does everyone "need" 64 MB or is just a small percentage of enthusiats who might be a bit too gadget happy or can't cut the communications umbilical cord for a few minutes ?

    I mean do we really need to have huge memory hogging programs that check our e-mail every 2 minutes ? I have a 6 hour drive tomorrow up to the state capital to do some desk pounding....do I need some e-mail program to be checking for mail on this schedule when I am simply gonna ignore it thru the drive and my meetings on capitol hill from 5 am till about 3 pm ?

    I saw loads of peeps complaining about the 650's memory problems but I am sitting here and could easily operate my 650 with 20 MB free. I keep frequently used SD card capable programs off the card just to speed up my tasks and still have like 16 MB free. Palm's target market with the 700w is not the dude who wants to play last season's Sopranos episodes on the bus on the way to work or the guy who even believes that there is a place in the world for Instant Messaging programs. When making a pitch to CFO's and IT peeps they must cringe when the question comes up about the capability of such usage.

    Hey from the getgo, my answer woulda been whatever MB it takes to do Palm, you gotta double or triple that Windows bloat. But the question is not what the stats are but what can you do with the 6700 that you can't do with 700w. Until someone has answer for that, as well as the visa versa, it's hard to argue that Palm made a mistake. My guess is most of the peeps are gonna be just fine with 32 MB. While personally I would like the cushion, especially with Winbloat, all things being equal, I don't think I could go for the slide out keyboard thing. However given the choice between improved one handed usage and the extra RAM, in the absece of the 650, I'd go with the Treo 700w.

    If peeps are disappointed in the memory then my advice would be hold on to your 650 for one more year and wait for the 750. For some that will be blasphemy....for old cudgels like me, well we just get by with the tools that we need and are readily available.
    wow! watch it, they might accuse you of being me! agree 100%
  20. Blario's Avatar
    Posts
    33 Posts
    Global Posts
    34 Global Posts
    #40  
    WM5 only supposes 240x240 and 480x480? Then about about the i730 that is due for a WM5 upgrade that I know doesn't have a square screen. What are they going to do for that?
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions