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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I disagree.....I have had the (unfortunate?) opportunity to see how MS works behind the scenes. It is not pretty, aggressive, not without calculation, and often more illegal than has ever been brought out in any court room. I see this more as a move to keep enemies closer as a control factor and to move into enemy territory on their own terms rather than a move due to them being scared.
    Oh oh, does that mean the end of Palm OS phones eventually? Since Palm One seems to be the only maker now.

    I am not suprised about the illegal tactics!!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by zvandiver
    Back to the original question of Palm modifying WM5. It was Microsoft that had to back down and allow the modifications. I think the Palm Treo was killing the Windows phone market and Microsoft was willing to do just about anything to get back in the game. None of the current Windows phones can top the Treo form factor.
    Zane
    Thats a US-centric view. Worldwide WM sells more than double the devices, and it should be remembered that Palm approached MS in 2004, not the other way around.

    Surur
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    The truth is that Palm had a much greater incentive to differentiate via software, since they were doing so little innovative with regard to hardware.
    Surur
    This certainly not the truth, but rather your opinion. It is like saying that the Chevy Corvette is a better car than a Porsche 911 simply because the Corvette has more horsepower and bigger tires. Or is a 10 GB Creative Zen bettern than a iPod Nano because it has more storage space?

    The examples go on and on. The whole product is more than just hardware specs.
  4. #24  
    I believe it is true when it comes to the Treo. The hardware is a bit outdated.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  5. #25  
    When you join the WM world (like Palm has) you cant differentiate using the OS much any more (to maintain compatibility) so you are left with doing well spec'd hardware or adding extra software to differentiate you from all the other clones. The WM Treo has the exposed keyboard, but little else of note feature-wise. The rest of their feature set is the software additions. In this they are not unique either. It will be the main thing that will differentiate them from the Hp 6710, which will have GPS and WIFI G built-in.

    Surur
  6. #26  
    The built-in wi-fi and GPS are ahead of the 700w by leaps and bounds. But then they took a step backwards with the expansion if it's correct that miniSD is unpopular.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  7. #27  
    That's just the typical PC mentality so prevalent these days. Microsoft has commoditized the PC industry for the last two decades, and it is now paying the price. Look at all the hot gadgets and internet services that have come out since 2000, none of them is based on the Microsoft platform and technology (Blackberry, iPod and iTuen, Google, Treo). Why? It is because Microsoft, ever the monopoly, still wants to control everything at the expense of innovation. However, things are slowly changing at Redmond, and the deal with Palm is just one of them.

    If rich hardware feature set is all Microsoft wants, then ask yourself why Microsoft and Verizon are promoting the Treo 700w heavily, instead of the 6700 and 830?
  8. #28  
    Who said MS wants a rich hardware feature set? They just want to be ubiquitous. Palm is now helping them to do that.

    The feature set (besides their baseline (which is voice recorders, speakers etc)) is completely up to the OEM's. Its not MS against Palm, its MS against PSRC, and Palm against HP and Dell etc). People are often confused about this.

    Surur
  9. #29  
    Yeah I thought it was the manufacturers making the decision about features, not MS. I will agree that MS wants to be everywhere and kill competition, and it's so annoying!! But the manufacturers that make smart devices and sell them in the US ignore the Palm OS(except Palm One of course) and go straight for the WM. I'm not really sure why this is. And of those that used to make Palm OS phones besides Palm One(or Handspring at the time); we have lost Sony to Symbian, Kyocera to just regular cell phones, and Samsung to WM.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 12/31/2005 at 02:32 PM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    Yeah I thought it was the manufacturers making the decision about features, not MS. I will agree that MS wants to be everywhere and kill competition, and it's so annoying!! But the manufacturers that make smart devices and sell them in the US ignore the Palm OS(except Palm One of course) and go straight for the WM. I'm not really sure why this is. And of those that used to make Palm OS phones besides Palm One(or Handspring at the time); we have lost Sony to Symbian, Kyocera to just regular cell phones, and Samsung to WM.
    It depends if you are able to bring to the table together the phone company, handset designer and MS. If the offer on the table is attractive enough, MS will have a say on how things work. It is a business process.
  11. #31  
    No confusion here. You just mis-understood. I was simply pointing out that Microsoft chose to put its markeing dollars and muscle behind a WM device that you and others on this forum consider to be inferior to other WM devices. Has Microsoft gone mad

    Palmsource is now owned by Access of Japan anyway. By the way, Microsoft is also up against Linux and Symbian. Last time I checked, Symbian still claims having the largest shares of Mobile OS market.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Who said MS wants a rich hardware feature set? They just want to be ubiquitous. Palm is now helping them to do that.

    The feature set (besides their baseline (which is voice recorders, speakers etc)) is completely up to the OEM's. Its not MS against Palm, its MS against PSRC, and Palm against HP and Dell etc). People are often confused about this.

    Surur
    The point that I and others have been trying to make, which you don't seem to understand, is that hardware specs is only a part of any technology solution. Hardware without proper software integration and industrial design is just another machine, not a solution. Sure other phones may have GPS and Wifi built-in, but what good is it if it has short battery life, is more expensive, and is difficult to use. More hardware features do NOT equal to a better device. And this is exactly what has made Apple so successful lately. They understand that less is often more.

    This is my last post on this matter with you. You can have the last word if you would like.....I have a party to go to.

    Happy New Year.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    No confusion here. You just mis-understood. I was simply pointing out that Microsoft chose to put its markeing dollars and muscle behind a WM device that you and others on this forum consider to be inferior to other WM devices. Has Microsoft gone mad

    Palmsource is now owned by Access of Japan anyway. By the way, Microsoft is also up against Linux and Symbian. Last time I checked, Symbian still claims having the largest shares of Mobile OS market.

    The point that I and others have been trying to make, which you don't seem to understand, is that hardware specs is only a part of any technology solution. Hardware without proper software integration and industrial design is just another machine, not a solution. Sure other phones may have GPS and Wifi built-in, but what good is it if it has short battery life, is more expensive, and is difficult to use. More hardware features do NOT equal to a better device. And this is exactly what has made Apple so successful lately. They understand that less is often more.

    This is my last post on this matter with you. You can have the last word if you would like.....I have a party to go to.

    Happy New Year.
    I think MSFT is business as usual, trying to take over the competition.

    I mostly agree with your other statement EXCEPT that I think more hardware features DO equal a better device IF they are indeed useful. Yes, they will be more expensive and eat battery life for now(probably not in the future). This is the price we have to pay if we want everything small and portable.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    No confusion here. You just mis-understood. I was simply pointing out that Microsoft chose to put its markeing dollars and muscle behind a WM device that you and others on this forum consider to be inferior to other WM devices. Has Microsoft gone mad
    I think I am finally getting what you are really saying (I hope). You are saying that the Treo 700w is better than the competition (I assume due to a more thoughtful feature set and better software/hardware integration), and that MS recognizes this and is therefore promoting it beyond the other WM5 devices around.

    I think a much simpler explanation is that MS faces an uphill struggle in North America, and that Palm is finally helping them crack it. I would be surprised if they carry over that enthusiasm to other markets where Palm does not have a large mindshare already (e.g Europe and Asia).

    Surur
  14. #34  
    I don't think MSFT had an uphill struggle, many use WM in the US. It's just that they hate serious competition. Palm OS PDAs and phones took enough market share away from MSFT(in the US) so now MSFT will attempt to stiffle(by taking advantage of and control) the competition. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and try to get a major foothold in enemy territory, which is what happened here.

    Is it true Palm went to MSFT? That was a bad move, if so!!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    I don't think MSFT had an uphill struggle, many use WM in the US. It's just that they hate serious competition. Palm OS PDAs and phones took enough market share away from MSFT(in the US) so now MSFT will attempt to stiffle(by taking advantage of and control) the competition. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and try to get a major foothold in enemy territory, which is what happened here.

    Is it true Palm went to MSFT? That was a bad move, if so!!
    Microsoft's sleight of Palm
    Ina Fried
    CNET News.com
    September 30, 2005, 14:50 GMT


    Only now are details emerging of the months of secret talks that allowed the birth of the Windows Treo

    Palm chief executive Ed Colligan spent several days in Cannes in February 2004 talking up the Treo handheld computing device over its Windows-based competitors. But that same week, away from the massive 3GSM trade show, he was secretly meeting with the enemy.

    At a nondescript Comfort Inn a short distance from the main conference centre, Colligan and several Palm colleagues held a clandestine gathering with a team from Microsoft that was led by mobile unit head Pieter Knook. The groups took separate cabs to the hotel, met for several hours in a conference room, and then returned to the conference as though their rendezvous had never happened.

    The secret meeting, to discuss business terms of a possible partnership, paved the way for the developers of the Palm operating system to join up with a company that had once been their fiercest rival.

    Now Colligan and his Microsoft counterparts have gone public. On Monday, Colligan and Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates were on a ballroom stage at the Palace Hotel in San Francisco to announce plans for a Windows-based Treo.

    Rivals' fortunes tied
    The combination seemed unthinkable just a few years ago. Palm envisioned itself as a substantial rival to Microsoft, threatening to head off its computing dominance as the power of desktop computing shifted to pocket-size devices. But a series of miscues substantially weakened the company, leaving it little choice but to team up with the world's largest software maker.

    Although Palm has pledged to continue using the Palm OS in both handhelds and phones, the company has now significantly tied its fortunes to the rival it once denounced.

    In doing so, Palm is making a tough bet. The company is gambling that Microsoft will give Palm enough room to innovate in the future, now that it has successfully wooed the device maker. By going with Microsoft, Palm is letting go of one of the key differentiators between its products and those from better-known competitors.

    Colligan said he understands the risk and only undertook it with assurances that Palm would be able to build enough software on top of the operating system to make his products stand out.

    "It was the only way we felt it could work for us," he said at the Monday press conference.

    Executives from both companies suggest that the Palm-Microsoft relationship, forged at those meetings in Cannes and New Orleans, will continue to be close. But it remains to be seen whether Palm will retain its individuality now that it has the Microsoft imprimatur.

    Wirt acknowledges that there are no formal procedures in place that ensure that Palm will get the things it asks for the next time, or the time after that. "It's functioned more as a relationship-type thing."

    Colligan said Palm could try to patent particularly strong advances, but in general he said the company believes the best way to stay ahead is to keep cranking out new products.

    "We have ideas about many things that we didn't get to do in this version," he assured reporters.

    But for all its ideas, Palm is still a relatively small company. And given that it has pledged continued support for the Palm OS, it must now divide its limited engineering resources between two incompatible efforts.

    Colligan acknowledged that the challenges of developing for two entirely different operating systems are enough to keep his firm hopping. He emphatically shook his head back and forth when asked if Symbian and Linux-based Treos might be next.

    "We don't need another operating system," he said, adding later, "It's too much effort."
    http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/...9223888,00.htm

    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Colligan, CEO Palm Inc
    And, of course, Verizon Wireless has been an equal partner, in fact, have driven us to do this product. They're the first ones that came to us and said, hey, you know, if we could have a Windows, if you could do that Palm experience on Windows Mobile, wouldn't that be a great idea. And we said, sure, yes, it would be a great idea. Let's get them to work this out. And Verizon Wireless has been with us all the way, and really provided a great commitment. And, of course, has built an incredible network, EVDO network that's coming out around the country that Denny will speak about is just second to none. And, Denny, thank you for the commitment there.
    http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/s...26Mobility.asp

    Sounds as if Verizon does not like POS, but liked the Treo, and approached Palm, who then approached MS. Of course MS could have approached Verizon, who then approached Palm, who then approached MS....

    Surur
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver5
    Well, from the Today screen, it is apparently possible to start typing a contact's information to bring up a list of their numbers to dial. When in voicemail there is no need to try to remember which keys to use to skip, delete, rewind and so on, since the Treo show icons for each of these and does it for you. Speed dial is available right from the Today screen. Web search box is available right on the...well, you guessed it, the Today screen.

    The Today screen has always been my favourite feature of Pocket PC (Windows Mobile) and it is really nice to see Palm make it even better. I can only hope that other manufacturers or a few developers catch on and make these kinds of features for WM devices other than the Treo.

    I read alot of this at http://blog.treonauts.com/ so you can check a bit of it out if you want to...

    I was sitting in a coffee spot on Clark today and watched some guy pull his Treo and tap a contact pretty quickly and was on the phone within 10 seconds...I have to use Voice Command to pull that off...though there is a Contacts tap on my Today page that makes searching nearly as fast as the Treo. I would definitely like to see that on my Qtek 9100.
    Incidentally, Voice Command is actually included with the Treo 700w.
    Regadless of Palm's killer improvements to the today screen, if you're driving, do humanity a favor and use Voice Command to dial.
  17. #37  
    To get back to the question posed at the start of this thread...There's no reason why HTC wouldn't have been allowed to do what Palm did. Rather, they don't have the software developers or usability expertise that Palm has. Palm has claimed that they had some unique freedom to get down and dirty with WM5, but I don't believe that and haven't seen any proof of it.

    Palm has added several apps to the 700w that improve the usability experience of WM5. The value of these improvements shouldn't be trivialized. OTOH, people also shouldn't view Palm with god-like status when it comes to improving the usability experience. If anything, the improvements they bring to the table should highlight just how awful and out-of-touch both MS and its developer base (by and large) has been when it comes to the field of usability. But make no mistake...there are more experienced .NET developers out there who will clone and/or improve upon Palm's applets and offer those to users of other WM5 smartphones. Plus, with the kick in the gut Palm's acceptance of WM5 has given to the Palm OS platform, you can expect that many usability-experienced Palm OS developers are busily getting up-to-speed on WM5 and will bring to the table more WM5 apps with good usability design.

    In the end, I expect Palm to enjoy a relatively short advantage over the competition. The HP 6715 will offer a similar formfactor with better features and many of Palm's software applets will be cloned (and improved upon) by 3rd party developers within six months. Of course, the 6715 will be on Cingular while the 700w will be Verizon, so the two won't go head to head. The WM5 update to the Samsung i730 will offer a similar formfactor to the 700w and be on Verizon, so that may be a more interesting competition once the 3rd party Palm add-on software clones arrive.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
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