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  1.    #1  
    Hi guys,

    I just got my Pre Plus finally this week and started exploring right away. A little breakdown of the whole situation:

    -Palm Pre Plus - German QWERTZ unlocked - running 1.4.5
    -Bulgarian GSM operator Vivacom - now on data plan

    I was able to bypass the activation using the guidelines and the tool Palm provides on their website. Successfully entered into phone mode, can call, browse, use Wi-Fi, GPS, install Preware.

    I already have Preware installed and have read somewhere on unrelated topic that I can re-start the activation so I can create a Palm profile. I have a few questions related to that:

    1. Can activation be initialized without the need to re-flash the Palm using WebOS doctor?
    2. Will I get the AppCatalog right by using Bulgarian SIM card and what setting I need to create (country, language) to get access to free and paid apps in the catalog?
    3. If I need to do it with German sim card, do this needs to be done in Germany or someone can send me a prepaid card for example, to do it here?

    Thanks in advance, guys. Much appreciated
  2. #2  
    http://forums.precentral.net/gsm-pre...equencies.html

    Read this sticky. There's a section on activation.
  3.    #3  
    Okey, so i've bypassed activation. At this point, from what i've read in the sticky thread I understand that is advisable to activate the phone in the respective country. A few things to be cleared:

    1. Will I get access to paid apps if I activate my GERMAN Palm Pre Plus in France with French SIM card?
    2. Will I be able to activate it in Bulgaria with German/French SIM card?
    3. What I lose as functionality until I get through activation?

    Thanks in advance.
  4. #4  
    1 Yes you may need French language settings upon first activation.
    2 Yes but you'll get free apps only.
    3 Backup and App Catalog

    A few point to consider:
    Your device is new? Not used by any other user in an official country?
    You will need a EU credit card from one of the launch countries to buy apps.
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    1 Yes you may need French language settings upon first activation.
    2 Yes but you'll get free apps only.
    3 Backup and App Catalog

    A few point to consider:
    Your device is new? Not used by any other user in an official country?
    You will need a EU credit card from one of the launch countries to buy apps.
    Thanks GuyFromNam!

    As far as the device, I bought it as new and unlocked from amazon.de. It came with WebOS 1.4.5 which I am not quite sure whether is standard now or somebody has updated it first. I guess I can check on that with the seller )) That with the credit card can be a little tricky but manageable.

    One more question on this topic:
    1. Is there a way to figure out if the device has been activated or not?
  6. #6  
    While you have already gotten some good information, I would like to clear up some things. Speaking from experience in the U.S., "activation" is just a buzz word and is nothing more than associating the device with a Palm Profile. It has nothing to do with the SIM card used. You can do it without a SIM card if you choose. Now, it may indeed have something to do with location (App Catalog entitlements, credit cards, etc.), and there are different methods that can be employed to detect location. However, it seems to me that "activation" involves nothing more than telling Palm which language you use and in what country you are located, so they know what stuff to show you. It really has nothing to do with the carriers.

    Actually "activation" probably became common place when speaking about Pre devices since the CDMA versions were the first on the market, and tend to be associated more with an "activation" process (calling and telling them the ESN) through the carriers. In the GSM world there is a much clearer distinction between accounts (SIM cards) and devices (IMEI). The Palm profile cares about the latter, not the former. You can swap carriers and SIMs all day long without reactivating or going through a process. I have done this several times.

    A lot of helpful people here with good advice, but I think we are making this whole "activation" process more complicated than it really is. It is just registering the device with a Palm Profile.
  7. #7  
    Post directly above this one contains incorrect info. Read with caution.

    Quote Originally Posted by kmdub View Post
    You can do it without a SIM card if you choose
    > Incorrect. SIM card is required to determine MCC MNC of carrier and thereby location on earth

    Quote Originally Posted by kmdub View Post
    Now, it may indeed have something to do with location
    > Incorrect. It has everything to do with location

    Quote Originally Posted by kmdub View Post
    there are different methods that can be employed to detect location.
    > Correct, but activation without SIM via WiFi (using a proxy) will not work

    Bottom line and purpose of all info is to make users aware that activation and use in non-launch countries will be frustrated by Palm's App Catalog mechanics.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by soulfreak View Post
    Thanks GuyFromNam!

    As far as the device, I bought it as new and unlocked from amazon.de. It came with WebOS 1.4.5 which I am not quite sure whether is standard now or somebody has updated it first. I guess I can check on that with the seller )) That with the credit card can be a little tricky but manageable.

    One more question on this topic:
    1. Is there a way to figure out if the device has been activated or not?
    Look into Home - WIRECARD AG
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by kmdub View Post
    A lot of helpful people here with good advice, but I think we are making this whole "activation" process more complicated than it really is. It is just registering the device with a Palm Profile.
    Trivialising the Palm device record activation process (carefully note the terminology I have used) does not do your fellow community members any favours. It will only result in people activating in the wrong geographical location and never ever being able to purchase apps with that device.

    Please read the advice from the helpful people before stating things that will cause irrevocable circumstances for others.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  10. #10  
    Ok then, tell me what the "Palm device record activation process" does. Perhaps I just don't understand how that works. Because I have sitting here in my hand an unlocked Palm Pre Plus that did not have a SIM card during what is termed "activation." No SIM card in it now. I use it sometimes with my carrier. No problems with App Catalog, buying, etc., or the device in general. I simply used the method described by me above. Trivializing the experience of others does no one any favors. Stating that a SIM card is required is just a factual error. I never said that location does not matter. It may well matter for the activation process. The device can be activated with just the tools provided by Palm also, no Meta-doctor needed. I repeat - I HAVE DONE THIS MORE THAN ONCE ON MORE THAN ONE DEVICE. WITHOUT SIM CARDS. Any factual information to back up that claim?

    > Correct, but activation without SIM via WiFi (using a proxy) will not work
    Listen, I am sure you guys are bright and talented. No doubt you guys are helpful, however sometimes you are just plain wrong. Do you just not believe me when I say I have done exactly this? More than once? On more than one device?
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by kmdub View Post
    Ok then, tell me what the "Palm device record activation process" does. Perhaps I just don't understand how that works. Because I have sitting here in my hand an unlocked Palm Pre Plus that did not have a SIM card during what is termed "activation." No SIM card in it now. I use it sometimes with my carrier. No problems with App Catalog, buying, etc., or the device in general. I simply used the method described by me above. Trivializing the experience of others does no one any favors. Stating that a SIM card is required is just a factual error. I never said that location does not matter. It may well matter for the activation process. The device can be activated with just the tools provided by Palm also, no Meta-doctor needed. I repeat - I HAVE DONE THIS MORE THAN ONCE ON MORE THAN ONE DEVICE. WITHOUT SIM CARDS. Any factual information to back up that claim?
    The SIM card is only required for the very first device record activation to gain access to the paid app catalog. After that first device record activation, it no longer matters. I suspect your device record was first activated when it was unlocked before you received it.

    The means by which a device record enters the palm database is via a combined SMS and SSL data connection back to Palm, containing the IMEI, PalmSN, and DMMODEL of the device, and the MNC and MCC of the current cellular connection. Once the device record is there from the very first device activation, you can do what you like with the device over wifi in the future (including re-doctoring it) without changing the paid app catalog access (and if you get it wrong at the start, you can never fix it).

    BTW, you can't create the initial device record activation if you use the Palm bypass activation tool. Once the device record has been created, what tool you use subsequently is irrelevant.

    I suspect you are using the term "activation" to mean something other than the initial device record creation activity which only happens once and once only in the lifetime of the device and which is transferred from profile to profile as you reflash the device and log into a new profile.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 11/05/2010 at 09:34 PM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  12. #12  
    I suspect your device record was first activated when it was unlocked before you received it.
    Nope, the one I have now was purchased brand new by me, and activated over WiFI, with no SIM card. I unlocked the device myself. I promise you. A SIM card was not introduced to the device until after activation. I can purchase apps for the catalog just fine.

    I suspect the MNC and MCC of the "cellular connection" does not matter. Sure it may be sent if present, but it doesn't seem to matter, at least in my case.

    BTW, you can't create the initial device record activation if you use the Palm bypass activation tool
    How is mine activated and purchasing apps then?

    I suspect you are using the term "activation" to mean something other than the initial device record creation activity which only happens once and once only in the lifetime of the device and which is transferred from profile to profile as you reflash the device and log into a new profile.
    Actually, all I am saying is that it has nothing to do with the SIM or MNC/MCC, but more so with the other information, IMEI, etc. No offense, and your contributions are much appreciated, but I suspect we are over complicating the activation of the device. I will say this though, maybe the activation process for CDMA devices is much different than the GSM/UMTS devices. I have never activated a CDMA Pre.
    Last edited by kmdub; 11/05/2010 at 09:49 PM.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by kmdub View Post
    Nope, the one I have now was purchased brand new by me
    Purchased from whom/where? You cannot get an unlocked Pre Plus in the US direct from the manufacturer or carrier. The only places where those are available are Germany (QWERTZ keyboard) and France (AZERTY keyboard).

    If you purchased an unlocked QWERTY keyboard Pre Plus, then the device record was created by the person/company you bought it from and then it transferred normally to your newly created Palm profile (which is different to the device record) when you created that Palm profile and logged into it for the first time.

    I have purchased three unlocked webOS devices from Germany, one which was activated first in Germany, one which came directly to Australia, and one which came via the US where it was activated before being shipped onwards. Results are as expected - the one which was activated in Australia only has free app access (and cannot be changed). The one which was activated in Germany has EU paid app access (and cannot be changed). The one which was activated in the US has US paid app access (and cannot be changed).

    I also have two unlocked devices from the US, one which was activated there and one which was not. Results there are also as expected.

    I have also traced the communications between the device and the Palm servers during initial and subsequent activations, and have moved comms boards and keyboards between devices a number of times and examined the impact on the palm profile to device record mapping.

    I wrote the MetaDoctor mate, I have a pretty good idea of these things work.

    But if indeed you have a brand new method of purchasing devices from the US and first activating them in a non-supported country, and still getting paid app catalog access, or of changing a device which cannot access the paid app catalog into a device which can, then you should start a business, because according to my webserver logs for the Preware feeds there are thousands of customers waiting for you to sell them a solution to that problem.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 11/05/2010 at 10:03 PM.
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  14. #14  
    Purchased from whom/where? You cannot get an unlocked Pre Plus in the US direct from the manufacturer or carrier. The only place that is available is Germany.
    Well, you can walk into an AT&T store an buy one, then walk right out and unlock the device yourself. Sealed box. I promise. My phone was brand new and sealed in its original box. I bought it, skipped activation, unlocked it, proceeded to activate it (at least that is what I call it), and bought apps with the catalog. I promise. I also use it sometimes when I feel like a change on my T-Mobile account. Simple, no problems. I promise.

    If you purchased an unlocked QWERTY keyboard Pre Plus, then the device record was created by the person/company you bought it from and then it transferred normally to your profile when you logged in for the first time.
    Well, it was a fresh Palm Profile with a fresh device. Are you saying AT&T activated it first?

    I have purchased three unlocked webOS devices from Germany, one which was activated first in Germany, one which came directly to Australia, and one which came via the US where it was activated before being shipped onwards. Results are as expected - the one which was activated in Australia only has free app access (and cannot be changed). The one which was activated in Germany has EU paid app access (and cannot be changed). The one which was activated in the US has US paid app access (and cannot be changed).
    Honestly, you are making a lot of assumptions, which I think may have a lot to do with the confusion and complication. Maybe your experience does not reflect someone using an unlocked Pre in the U.S. Where are you located?

    Bottom line: I understand that a device is tied to a Palm Profile and location may decide what apps you have access to. I just don't think the SIM or carrier has much to do with it (unless perhaps you wanted to tie payment to your phone bill or something).
  15. #15  
    Um, this whole thread is about usage and device activation outside of the US.

    The point is that the perfect scenario that you may have encountered when everything is done in the US does *not* hold true when done outside of the US as the original post asks.

    If you do your procedure outside of the US, you end up with a device which can never again buy apps. That is an irrevocable action. Hence the desire not to trivialise this issue on a global forum.

    BTW, a device is not tied to a Palm profile, it is tied to a device record which is then mapped to whatever Palm profile you happened to log into that device with last. A Palm profile can have multiple device records (one of which is marked as the Primary device) and each device records can move between multiple Palm profiles.

    And it is indeed true that the SIM has nothing to do with it *except* in the specific case of first device record creation for a device outside of a supported carrier country, which is exactly the scenario that the original poster in this thread was asking about.

    -- Rod
    Last edited by rwhitby; 11/05/2010 at 10:39 PM.
  16. #16  
    Ok, I agree this thread started about activating a non-U.S. device, however, there is still a lot of non-factual information (in this thread) about the role of a SIM card in activating a Palm Pre. Just look a few posts back. I, and I am sure others, appreciate the help, however, spreading information about something that happens to be false helps no one. We agree that location plays a role in App Catalog entitlements. Great. Makes sense and is logical. However, we disagree on the role the SIM plays in this activation. Sure Palm Profiles can be created arbitrarily , however it is the device record that matters. I get that. Still no explaination on why some still seem to believe the SIM is such an important part of this "activation", however it is done. It isn't. It matters where the guy/gal activates, maybe even buys the device. Simple. Also, I would be willing to bet that a device activated outside of a "supported carrier country" (not even sure what that means) can still buy apps during its lifetime. The carriers have very little to do with activation of the device. Simple.
  17. #17  
    The carriers have nothing to do with the creation of the device record in the Palm servers.

    The MCC and MNC (obtained from the inserted SIM card and active cellular connection) sent to Palm when a device record is first created for a device outside of those countries for which Palm has negotiated carrier agreements ('supported countries') does.

    Note that I intentionally didn't use the overloaded 'activation' term in the above.

    -- Rod
  18. #18  
    Rod, you explained as clearly as possible.
    At activatiion (first ever activation and profile creation) a SIM card with a signal is required to determine location on earth by way of MCC and MNC. This determines app entitlement.
    If kmdub chooses to think otherwise, that's fine but it's incorrect (EDIT: imo and experience)

    Otherwise the entire world would be first-activating their device over a proxy.

    Rod, before I have to swallow my words:
    Is there any evidence to support any assumption that the AT&T firmware would behave differently in this respect or would the Palm servers be able to make a distinction based on IMEI.

    kmdub, I certainly don't want to pass off as being irrespectful. Could you perhaps explain in detail which procedure you followed multiple times as you say, as it's not clear from what you already detailed above.

    You seem to confirm above you activated devices for the first time over WiFi, after using the Palm bypass tool and unlocking the device. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any FirstUse app after that step, so how did you do it?
    Last edited by GuyFromNam; 11/06/2010 at 04:40 AM.
  19. #19  
    The IMEI is passed on device record creation, and it's within the realms of possibility that AT&T IMEI's (which are distinguishable from other webOS devices) are somehow combined specially with geo-ip-location within the US.

    I have never before over the past 18 months encountered anyone able to create a device record as described without a SIM card inserted, but I cannot argue against such a possibility for actions performed with AT&T devices in the US.

    I can argue with direct evidence and countless reports against any assumption that the same perfect sequence will cause anything other than an irrevocable exclusion from paid app access if performed outside of approved countries.

    -- Rod
  20. #20  
    Still something's off:

    If you use the Palm bypass tool to unlock your device, you get access to WiFi, but no FirstUse app. Any meta-doctor user would have mentioned having used that.
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